Alstom and Hitachi now announced as winners of HS2 rolling stock supplier contract

[JonathanH]

What will happen with the 390s when the trains for high speed two are built?

Maybe there is scope for a speculative thread about rebuilding them as bi-modes for Cross Country.

 

[fgwrich]

Bit of a cheap shot by you to bring an accident into it and blame it on Siemens, which is factually inaccurate.

Thirded.

Hitachi/Alstom Press Release here (with photo projections) :
Press | Hitachi Rail
the "British Based Firms"...

Argh, a leaf taken straight out of the book of Bombardier, who let the unions and media claim they were British because of Derby, despite being a French Canadian firm headquartered in Berlin.

 

[dereksingh291]

But ICWC can't use 57 Pendolinos and 54 HS2 sets.
390s will be getting on for 27+ years old when HS2 starts up with its new trains.

but one day would the 390s be scrapped after running for so many years??

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

There's no hint of the design origin of the train beyond being "predominantly UK designed", but one might suppose the bodyshells and electrics will come from Hitachi, and the rest from Alstom.
No mention of "V300 Zefiro" anywhere.

For what it's worth, the bogies and propulsion on the V300 came from Bombardier.

According to rail industry publication Rail Engineer, Bombardier personnel were responsible for conducting the concept and detailed design phases of development, as well as for the provision of propulsion equipment and bogies, homologation efforts, testing, and the commissioning of the first five trains. Meanwhile, AnsaldoBreda developed the train's industrial design, including body, interior, signalling and other systems, in addition to performing the final assembly and commissioning of series production trains. Both firms were involved in detail design and engineering activity.

Frecciarossa 1000 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RealTrains07]

The Times are reporting Alstom and hitachi are going to be announced as the winners of the HS2 contract.

Alstom and Hitachi win HS2 train bid

The government and HS2 are on the verge of announcing that a £2.8 billion contract for the most prestigious train manufacturing project in the history of Britain’s railways is to be awarded to Derby’s historic Litchurch Lane works and Hitachi’s much newer factory at Newton Aycliffe in Co Durham.The

www.thetimes.co.uk

Unfortunate really. Poor decision if it is to be the case.

Considering what happened with siemens. Something seems off about how this contract was awarded considering the poor recent history both companies have. Bad decision making.

I always had a feeling hitachi and alstom were always going to win the bid. Both companies win most things these days

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

but one day would the 390s be scrapped after running for so many years??

Well their Eurostar cousins (373s) are already largely scrapped at 20-25 years, some with very few miles on the clock.
DfT did once suggest that cascaded 390s might be repurposed on Trans-Pennine routes.
8 years is a long time away to be considering their redeployment.
We're also still awaiting the WCML plan for non-tilting stock, which may or may not remove the 390 fleet's unique selling factor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well their Eurostar cousins (373s) are already largely scrapped at 20-25 years, some with very few miles on the clock.
DfT did once suggest that cascaded 390s might be repurposed on Trans-Pennine routes.
8 years is a long time away to be considering their redeployment.
We're also still awaiting the WCML plan for non-tilting stock, which may or may not remove the 390 fleet's unique selling factor.

Non-tilting stock is already on order for the WCML in the form of 80x.

I would expect the Pendolinos to be mostly if not all scrapped when HS2 Phase 1 is fully opened. They are worked hard and will be pretty worn out by then.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For what it's worth, the bogies and propulsion on the V300 came from Bombardier.

That was before the Hitachi acquisition of Ansaldo Breda though, and now the Bombardier content of the V300.
We don't know the commercial split of the HAH-S JV, or which technology will be used for HS2, but I would be surprised if Hitachi were content with just the bodyshell work.
The aim of the HS2 tender was to obtain the best proven world-class HS technology, and none of that resides in the UK at the moment.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It seems the DfT, who claim they are keen not to repeat the mistakes of the past, are keen to repeat the mistakes of the past. Like most in this area, I think we’ve given up waiting for the 701s to arrive. The prospect of a joint Hitachi / Alstom nee Derby product doe not fill me with confidence.

Same here. Hitachi's failings hamstrung several operators and obliterated the LNER timetable. Something does feel off about awarding them the contract.

So are we effectively talking about an 8-car 80x with the bodyshells shortened to 25m (to give exactly 200m for an 8 car train), something the platform already supports, a pointier nose and a faster top speed? I figure we could well be, assuming the 80x bodyshell (cracks aside) is considered strong enough for the higher speed or can easily be reinforced.

Poor poor poor poor poor poor poor poor decision. Liquidate the entire DfT and start over.

We're also still awaiting the WCML plan for non-tilting stock, which may or may not remove the 390 fleet's unique selling factor.

So to make HS2 seem better for Preston to Scotland, they're going to nerd the Pendolinos? Seems about right for the DfT.

Bit of a cheap shot by you to bring an accident into it and blame it on Siemens, which is factually inaccurate.

Indeed. Disingenuous to blame Siemens for something they didn't oversee.

 

[HSTEd]

What will happen with the 390s when the trains for high speed two are built?

The best examples may be retained but most of them will go for razorblades or aluminium cans.

 

[Mikey C]

Good news about Bogies being built in the UK again. I wonder if future Alstom EMUs from Derby will also have Crewe made bogies

 

[tomuk]

So are we effectively talking about an 8-car 80x with the bodyshells shortened to 25m (to give exactly 200m for an 8 car train), something the platform already supports, a pointier nose and a faster top speed? I figure we could well be, assuming the 80x bodyshell (cracks aside) is considered strong enough for the higher speed or can easily be reinforced.

They are not 80x derived they are an update of Zefiro.

 

[AverageTD]

They're all to be classic compatible and there'll be a HS2 connection at Washwood Heath so direct access off the Derby - Birmingham route, not far to have to drag them by rail to HS2 at all.

Does that stand for just this first batch or for the lot of them? I thought the split between classic and HS2 only trains would be about 50/50, although now the eastern leg is axed I guess there's not as much need for HS2 only stock

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are not 80x derived they are an update of Zefiro.

Thanks, is that stated anywhere (or inside info? )

Does that stand for just this first batch or for the lot of them? I thought the split between classic and HS2 only trains would be about 50/50, although now the eastern leg is axed I guess there's not as much need for HS2 only stock

All initial HS2 stock is to be classic compatible for maximum flexibility. Which makes sense, as the only real gain from building UIC gauge is if you're going double deck (the extra width is quite small, and the extra height not all that useful), and it would remove the ability to run them elsewhere, e.g. to divert via the WCML if necessary, as well as flexibility of what to operate on which bit. Plus you're going to need them all for Phase 1 anyway.

It's a large fleet, so there won't be any "off the shelf economies of scale". You only really get that when buying small fleets (and not from Stadler).

 

[tomuk]

Thanks, is that stated anywhere (or inside info? )

Well one place is you can read the lengthy EU commission competition investigation reports into the Alstom Bombardier takeover and the commitments made by Alstom over Zefiro to allow the takeover. In terms of the press releases if you were Hitachi or Alstom would you be bigging up your own high speed heritage or that of a now defunct manufacturer.

 

[Purple Orange]

Will this order cover all paths out of Euston & Birmingham once all of HS2 is complete (HS2 phase 2b West & HS2 phase 2b east to EMP)?

Would there be any requirement for a follow on order?

 

[tomuk]

Will this order cover all paths out of Euston & Birmingham once all of HS2 is complete (HS2 phase 2b West & HS2 phase 2b east to EMP)?

Would there be any requirement for a follow on order?

This is for phase 1 only more sets required for phase 2 to Manchester

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does that stand for just this first batch or for the lot of them? I thought the split between classic and HS2 only trains would be about 50/50, although now the eastern leg is axed I guess there's not as much need for HS2 only stock

This order is for Phase 1 and 2a to Crewe, ie replacing current WCML services.
The intention was when the order for Phase 2b was placed (ie for East Mids/Leeds/Newcastle/Edinburgh), it could include dedicated stock for the captive HS routes (Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds), with the compatible ones being cascaded onwards.
With the eastern leg cancelled (the East Mids/Leeds trains will now have to be compatible) there's little point in having a dedicated fleet.
But it's years away before that needs to be decided.
The design should at least produce a 200m go-anywhere HS2/classic compatible high speed train.

 

[DanNCL]

Does that stand for just this first batch or for the lot of them? I thought the split between classic and HS2 only trains would be about 50/50, although now the eastern leg is axed I guess there's not as much need for HS2 only stock

It stands for all of the trains that this contract covers. If any UIC-only trains are ordered for HS2 in the future it’ll need to go out to tender again and won’t necessarily be built by Hitachi or Alstom.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

If you read the spec, unless they get to deviate from it it looks like the units will be very comfortable. Things like seat quality, very generous spacing and window alignment in Standard are all specified.

...and just four bike spaces in a 200m, eight-carriage train. Sigh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

...and just four bike spaces in a 200m, eight-carriage train. Sigh.

So 8 on most trains, as most trains will run as a 400m double set. That's a doubling of now.

Do many people want to take bicycles on InterCity journeys? Surely it's more of a regional-train thing.

 

[Purple Orange]

This is for phase 1 only more sets required for phase 2 to Manchester

That can’t be right, as there will be HS2 trains running to Manchester once phase 1 is open.

 

[class26]

Thank goodness for the reduced journey times, if the seats are going to be as uncomfortable as those on the GWR trains.

Let`s hope lessons have been learned regarding seats

 

[Bletchleyite]

That can’t be right, as there will be HS2 trains running to Manchester once phase 1 is open.

The Manchester-Birmingham service doesn't go in until Phase 2a. Though isn't that potentially going to be a NPR service to Newcastle now?

But that's such a small part of the overall stock requirement that you'd think they'd just order it in one go and rotate them round to cover lower usage.

 

[Wolfie]

I would be aghast if the contract was not awarded on the basis of guaranteed manufacture in the UK.

Wonderful. But don't complain about lost UK jobs if other Governments respond by reciprocating when ordering UK designed products or indeed choose British last in response...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I would be aghast if the contract was not awarded on the basis of guaranteed manufacture in the UK.

All the bidders probably offered assembly in the UK.
Hitachi could offer bodyshell production as well at Newton Aycliffe, and seemingly Alstom are offering bogie production at Crewe.
But the underlying design is bound to be "foreign", just as the IEP and its derivatives are.
There will undoubtedly be significant Japanese, German and possibly Italian content.
I'll be very interested find out the overall UK content (if we are ever told).

 

[tomuk]

Wonderful. But don't complain about lost UK jobs if other Governments respond by reciprocating when ordering UK designed products or indeed choose British last in response...

It's been going on for years. Most SNCF stock is built in France. Alstom wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the French Government. One contract for 54 trains isn't going to change anything.

That can’t be right, as there will be HS2 trains running to Manchester once phase 1 is open.

I meant when the Phase 2 line reaches Manchester. These trains will basically be used to replace current express services on the west coast. They will run London - Birmingham on HS2 then re-join the WMCL at Handsacre (Phase 1) or Crewe (Phase 2a) to continue to Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh.

 

[hwl]

So are we effectively talking about an 8-car 80x with the bodyshells shortened to 25m (to give exactly 200m for an 8 car train), something the platform already supports, a pointier nose and a faster top speed? I figure we could well be, assuming the 80x bodyshell (cracks aside) is considered strong enough for the higher speed or can easily be reinforced.

No as the design has to be an already extant HS design and IET doesn't qualify. It is Zefiro based

 

[Oxfordblues]

I see from the press release that the bogies will be maintained at Crewe. Is this Crewe Works (off the Chester line) and will the siding be reinstated and electrified to allow the new trains to visit for a bogie-change?

 

[Non Multi]

Strewth, 200mph in an IET. LMAO!

Presumably a HS2 ticket would also include a complimentary voucher for a change of underwear. Blimey.