Alstom Aventra Hydrogen

[Bletchleyite]

As @Bletchleyite said, what matters is the source of the hydrogen. 'grey' hydrogen, which is much, much cheaper than 'green' hydrogen has a carbon impact several times that of fossil fuels (mainly because it's made using fossil fuel, and is a nightmare to transport)

I don't see any future for a network of piped fuel into homes in the future. Gas doesn't provide anything that can't be provided by electricity - induction hobs are virtually as good as gas, and hear pumps are much more efficient (though admittedly noisier and more expensive) than gas boilers.

Not to mention that piped flammable/explosive gas is far, far less safe than electricity, with gas explosions not all that unusual. And if you are going to use electricity to produce hydrogen, why not just transmit that electricity down cables instead?

 

[xotGD]

Not to mention that piped flammable/explosive gas is far, far less safe than electricity, with gas explosions not all that unusual. And if you are going to use electricity to produce hydrogen, why not just transmit that electricity down cables instead?

Because you need seasonal and diurnal storage for one thing.

And, as I've previously said, a heat pump does not offer like for like performance against a gas fired boiler.

 

[TRAX]

In 15 or 20 years time there won't be a natural gas network. Just a hydrogen network.

It's the future. Zero carbon at the point of use.

That’s a bold claim.

 

[aleggatta]

just a little input from what my gas engineer has said - supposedly the intention is to move to a natrual gas/hydrogen mix and go from there, whether that be to 100% hydrogen in the end or stay as a blend, with most boilers now being developed 'hydrogen ready' and conversion kits would be available for anything that is suitable to run on hydrogen (typically simply a burner change in the boiler). The gas pipeline system won't simply be mothballed, theres too much investment in the infrastructure for it to simply be let go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because you need seasonal and diurnal storage for one thing.

Plenty of options for that.

And, as I've previously said, a heat pump does not offer like for like performance against a gas fired boiler.

So what if you have to replace your radiators - underfloor is better anyway.

In any case I did an experiment and set my heating water temperature to 50 degrees (roughly what a heat pump would do) and it was fine. Only reason I switched it back was because the way my boiler works the shower goes cold when the heating kicks in if the hot water and heating circuits aren't set to the same temperature.

 

[Mikey C]

Heat pumps would be a nightmare for existing flats anyway, as there's nowhere to put them outside

 

[Domh245]

Because you need seasonal and diurnal storage for one thing.

You're better served by having hydrogen storage grid side - generating hydrogen when there is an excess and using it to generate electricity when there is a shortage of supply. It vastly simplifies the storage, transmission and distribution problem by keeping it all at one site.

 

[Mordac]

Heat pumps would be a nightmare for existing flats anyway, as there's nowhere to put them outside

We all live in detached houses, dontcha know... The elites making these decisions have no clue how the majority of people live.

 

[xotGD]

You're better served by having hydrogen storage grid side - generating hydrogen when there is an excess and using it to generate electricity when there is a shortage of supply. It vastly simplifies the storage, transmission and distribution problem by keeping it all at one site.

That would need a heck of a lot of generating capacity that sits around doing nothing for 95% of the time or more.

Also, the amount of power grid reinforcement that would be needed to electrify everything (including car charging as well as heating) would be very costly.

I'm leaving this discussion here as we've moved too far away from hydrogen trains!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Heat pumps would be a nightmare for existing flats anyway, as there's nowhere to put them outside

Flats need to have communal heating with them on the roof. Individual heating in flats doesn't make sense.

That said, there is no technical reason you couldn't fit a small one to the outside wall as people do with aircon units in most hot countries, though it is incredibly ugly, they look like warts all over the wall.

 

[supervc-10]

Many (most?) flats already don't have gas, due to fire/explosion risks (see Ronan Point).

But yes- new build flats need to be designed with communal combined heating/cooling (reversible heat pumps) for the whole building like they do in a lot of the US.

Regarding increasing grid supply for heating and charging cars- the majority of this will be at night, when generation is plentiful. I'm not saying it's not something that needs thinking about and adjustments making, but the idea that everyone is going to be charging their car, heating their house, and cooking their dinner all at 7pm is a fallacy. Octopus Energy already have a system where a special charging cable links with the real time prices of electricity to charge your car only when there's surplus. The same can be done for heating too- remember economy 7 and storage heaters?

Anyway... going slightly off topic! Sorry mods! Perhaps one to split out into a separate thread?

 

[iainp]

Maybe they'll come to Scotland to replace the HST's or on the Borders line?
Plenty of scope north of the central belt where electrification is likely costly and difficult and the distances too long for batteries.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Maybe they'll come to Scotland to replace the HST's or on the Borders line?

I doubt they'll replace HSTs anytime soon as they're yet to be proven. I think what has been theorised here, in that they're going to be built instead of converting a bunch of 321s and used in the North East, will be the case. I also think that the Scotland bit was only added as part of advertising/virtue signalling over cop26.

 

[FOCTOC]

Any idea where they will be used?

The cab looks the same as those on Class 701s. Hopefully the issues with those will be sorted out by the time these HMUs are ready.

Having not long ago experienced a 701 on the main line, I can't believe they're even considering it!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Agreed everything should have panto well and 3rd rail retrofitment options as well (some what easier).

The problem for BEMU roll out at the moment is two fold:
a) limited number of routes where charging under existing OHLE (or 3rd rail) can happen without any changes e.g. Northern 2Nxx Leeds - Wakefield Westgate - Sheffield, Southeast Manchester local services, Bolton - Wigan electrification will also be useful for battery west of Wigan.
b) the locations in a) are very spread out so unit diagramming will tend to be less efficient than today (bigger impact on residual diesel diagramming with increasing diesel ECS)

There is demand to "battery" some routes that don't the a) criteria and tend to have very short turnaround times criteria e.g. Windemere and Greenford branch.
Some trial schemes (e.g. Vivarail) then try to concentrate on fast charging at stations as a solution to a) but the problems is that fast charge rate batteries are much more expensive and will be for a good few years (minimum 5) and battery capacity is effectively sacrificed to obtain high charge rate which cuts the range.
The Nth approach to Windermere appears to be rotating units off the branch to charge as required and going for high capacity with conventional (cheaper) battery tech

Scottish electrification (discontinuous in the short term) and other scheme such as TRU (e.g. for Northern's Hudderfield - Wakefield if that service ever returns) then offer a good number of addition BEMU rollout options in the medium term medium term roll out options.

With Battery the thinking needs to be what will the electrification look like in X years time and focusing on a net replacement of regional DMUs at end of life but not necessarily on the same routes e.g. TS/Scotrail with the 156 end of life and then cascade the remaining DMUs as needed (e.g. 158/170 to WHL)

Concentrating BEMUS on routes where at least 60% of the route is over electrified lines will give plenty of time for recharge and potentially obviate fast recharge being needed on the non electrified sections now that battery capacity is capable of supporting 80-100km off the juice. Fast recharge can be used for non electrified lines. As for hydrogen maybe a loco version will have a place as it has somewhere safe to contain the gas bottles and all the extra kit that is required but lets see what Alstom come up with in the constrained BR loading gauge.

 

[hwl]

Concentrating BEMUS on routes where at least 60% of the route is over electrified lines will give plenty of time for recharge and potentially obviate fast recharge being needed on the non electrified sections now that battery capacity is capable of supporting 80-100km off the juice.

That would be ideal but the problem is that there are remarkably few of those and they tend to be well spread out.

 

[ainsworth74]

50p says they're heading to Teesside. Numbers stack up quite nicely to cover the seven or eight unit diagrams required, the Mayor and MPs have been prattling on about us being a hydrogen hub for ages so there's nearby supplies and chucking up a depot fits in the Teesworks agenda of the Mayor who seems to be an up and coming Tory star. So I suspect hydrogen units are in my lines future!

 

[Swanley 59]

So what if you have to replace your radiators - underfloor is better anyway.

Mrs Swanley is inclined to disagree. Our modestly sized new-build bungalow has underfloor heating, and it costs significantly more to heat than our old and much larger house with conventional radiators and a combi boiler.

Hydrogen capture technology is not my area of expertise, so I'm not qualified to offer an option on the prospect of metal hydrides for high-density hydrogen storage. Plasma Kinetics (https://plasmakinetics.com/) is making some bold claims in this field. I'd be interested to hear the opinions of those with the relevant expertise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mrs Swanley is inclined to disagree. Our modestly sized new-build bungalow has underfloor heating, and it costs significantly more to heat than our old and much larger house with conventional radiators and a combi boiler.

Is that electric underfloor? All electric resistive heating costs more than gas at present. The valid comparison is gas underfloor or heat-pump underfloor.

 

[Swanley 59]

Is that electric underfloor? All electric resistive heating costs more than gas at present. The valid comparison is gas underfloor or heat-pump underfloor.

Gas underfloor heating. To be honest, I think it is more down to the rubbish thermostatic controls rather than anything fundamental.

 

[TRAX]

Domestic underfloor heating also has negative health implications.

 

[Roast Veg]

50p says they're heading to Teesside. Numbers stack up quite nicely to cover the seven or eight unit diagrams required, the Mayor and MPs have been prattling on about us being a hydrogen hub for ages so there's nearby supplies and chucking up a depot fits in the Teesworks agenda of the Mayor who seems to be an up and coming Tory star. So I suspect hydrogen units are in my lines future!

At least you can rely on them not getting pinched if so!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Domestic underfloor heating also has negative health implications.

Such as?

Gas underfloor heating. To be honest, I think it is more down to the rubbish thermostatic controls rather than anything fundamental.

It could also relate to e.g. different levels of insulation in the two houses. It's hard to compare unless in the same house.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think we might be wandering slightly off-topic here going into underfloor heating!

 

[Benno]

They should get sone of these units to Chiltern railways. Stop Westminster Council moaning then

Chiltern are already in a bi-mode battery trial

Chiltern Railways celebrates 25th anniversary with launch of greener and quieter HybridFLEX train | Chiltern Railways

www.chilternrailways.co.uk

 

[Stephen Lee]

I hope West Midlands gets the chance

Any idea where they will be used?

The cab looks the same as those on Class 701s. Hopefully the issues with those will be sorted out by the time these HMUs are ready.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Chiltern are already in a bi-mode battery trial

Chiltern Railways celebrates 25th anniversary with launch of greener and quieter HybridFLEX train | Chiltern Railways

www.chilternrailways.co.uk

Is it actually a Bimode in the sense of a train with two different power sources ?
I am under the impression the new Rolls Royce / MAN engine (maybe the same as that in the 769s ?) provides power and is assisted by motors which use stored kinetic energy from braking etc.

In other words the train is driven by a mix of diesel engine and motors powered from gathering some volts from regen braking, and burning diesel. There is no external energy source with the Chiltern Hybridflex AIUI

 

[Domh245]

Is it actually a Bimode in the sense of a train with two different power sources ?
I am under the impression the new Rolls Royce / MAN engine (maybe the same as that in the 769s ?) provides power and is assisted by motors which use stored kinetic energy from braking etc.

In other words the train is driven by a mix of diesel engine and motors powered from gathering some volts from regen braking, and burning diesel. There is no external energy source with the Chiltern Hybridflex AIUI

You are correct in how it works, though it is an MTU engine (who are owned by RR) - nothing to do with MAN

 

[hooverboy]

50p says they're heading to Teesside. Numbers stack up quite nicely to cover the seven or eight unit diagrams required, the Mayor and MPs have been prattling on about us being a hydrogen hub for ages so there's nearby supplies and chucking up a depot fits in the Teesworks agenda of the Mayor who seems to be an up and coming Tory star. So I suspect hydrogen units are in my lines future!

Teesside and Humber estuaries would seem like the most likely candidates for hydrogen "refineries",so it would make a lot of sense having suitable rolling stock close to those processing and storage facilities.

 

[xotGD]

Teesside and Humber estuaries would seem like the most likely candidates for hydrogen "refineries",so it would make a lot of sense having suitable rolling stock close to those processing and storage facilities.

Also Stanlow. The HyNet project.