• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Alternatives to conventional catenary electrification.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
There was a story in the news the other day about Tesla now are going to make battery powered big rigs with about a 500 mile range on one charge.

Whilst I know these wont be the same weight as a fully laden train it shows that battery tech is getting better all the time - or is that too naïve a view on it?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

dgl

Established Member
Joined
5 Oct 2014
Messages
2,414
I addition there was something once said by Elon Musk about how battery technology was advancing only for a representative from Panasonic (who actually make their batteries or at least did at the time) to dispute his claims.

Elon seems to be someone who promises the earth without actually realising it's not really possible/practical.
 

takno

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
5,094
Elon seems to be someone who promises the earth without actually realising it's not really possible/practical.
People give him a lot of leeway in that respect. He's been wading in promising the earth for years, and I no longer believe for a second that he doesn't realise these things are impossible in the short to medium term. The impact of his publicity-seeking forays into fantasy-land are an increasing level of scepticism and fall in investment for real engineers trying to make real current technology do useful things in the real current decade.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
He seems to be doing ok with Space X doesn't he so youll both have to elaborate on your statements so I can understand more why you say what you say about him
 

reddragon

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2016
Messages
3,148
Location
Churn (closed)
Ordinary electrolytic capacitors have not previously been mentioned in this thread so I don't understand their relevance. The current commercial state of the art is:
  • Electrostatic tantalum capacitors have a specific energy of around 0.0002 megajoules/kg
  • Electric double layer capacitors,(supercapacitors) have a specific energy of around 0.035 megajoules/kg
  • Lithium ion batteries have specific energies of between 0.4 and 1 megajoules/kg depending on the chemistry
  • Diesel fuel has a specific energy of around 50 megajoules/kg
Long way to go, huh?

Do you have any examples of such developments?


By the way, capital cost also plays an important rôle in the selection of a suitable drive technology so the price for these new storage technologies has to be competitive. In the meantime I'd go with pure electric for metros and fast trains and, possibly, hybrids (diesel and battery) for country, interurban and inter-regional services.
Waiting for a new technology to prove itself is not an option.

Lets start then! Diesel engines are 30% efficient at crankshaft, then allow for lack of regenerative braking, idling & transmission losses etc then 15%, so that's just 50x15% = 7.5 megajoules/kg at the wheel. Ok, lets add the power pack of 16t, plus 4t of bits makes 20t for 1000l / 1t of fuel. 7.5 / 20t = 0.75 megajoules/kg in real terms.

So batteries are today at weight for weight matching a diesel and all of its engine / tanks / gearbox extra weight but not yet matching on capital cost, but are on whole life cost as the fuel cost is much lower on electric.

You have to calculate on a like for like basis. Weight = fuel + tank + engine + fuel system + gearbox; mega joules = fuel x engine efficiency x transmission losses x wasted energy from braking / idling. Electric looses just 10% of charging / discharging a battery and <1% on a capacitor.

Now super-capacitors. The latest polymer capacitors are 1000x that of the old style you quote, so well above diesels or batteries. They are in the labs today, powering test mobiles / laptops and soon, within a few years cars / busses, then trains

https://www.techworld.com/apps-wear...cars-that-charge-in-minutes-possible-3651281/

The Tesla battery started at 60 kW/h and is now 100 kW/h for the same weight, Nissan went from 24 to 30 to 45 and 60 KW/h for the same weight in a short time. I cannot find a decent graph for this at the moment, as they are all very complex for the average Joe.

So compare like with like and lets forget the fossil lobby & their dieselgate figures!
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,962
Location
Nottingham
Lets start then! Diesel engines are 30% efficient at crankshaft, then allow for lack of regenerative braking, idling & transmission losses etc then 15%, so that's just 50x15% = 7.5 megajoules/kg at the wheel. Ok, lets add the power pack of 16t, plus 4t of bits makes 20t for 1000l / 1t of fuel. 7.5 / 20t = 0.75 megajoules/kg in real terms.

So batteries are today at weight for weight matching a diesel and all of its engine / tanks / gearbox extra weight but not yet matching on capital cost, but are on whole life cost as the fuel cost is much lower on electric.

You have to calculate on a like for like basis. Weight = fuel + tank + engine + fuel system + gearbox; mega joules = fuel x engine efficiency x transmission losses x wasted energy from braking / idling. Electric looses just 10% of charging / discharging a battery and <1% on a capacitor.

Now super-capacitors. The latest polymer capacitors are 1000x that of the old style you quote, so well above diesels or batteries. They are in the labs today, powering test mobiles / laptops and soon, within a few years cars / busses, then trains

https://www.techworld.com/apps-wear...cars-that-charge-in-minutes-possible-3651281/

The Tesla battery started at 60 kW/h and is now 100 kW/h for the same weight, Nissan went from 24 to 30 to 45 and 60 KW/h for the same weight in a short time. I cannot find a decent graph for this at the moment, as they are all very complex for the average Joe.

So compare like with like and lets forget the fossil lobby & their dieselgate figures!

16 tonnes sounds like a huge amount for a power pack especially as you're excluding the 4t of bits. From Railway Centre a Class 156 car weighs about 38 tonnes and from Wikipedia a Mk4 coach, based on the same bodyshell design but unpowered, weighs around 40 tonnes. Obviously there are some differences in construction here for the unpowered one to be heavier, but it suggests the power equipment weighs far less than 20 tonnes! For comparison a Cummins QSK19 on its own weighs just under 2 tonnes (https://cumminsengines.com/qsk19-construction#specifications).

Incidentally you should be talking about "kWh". "kW/h" is meaningless.
 

BantamMenace

Member
Joined
2 Dec 2013
Messages
563
Looking out over the next twenty years I think it would be helpful to try and see which parts of the railway would be most suitable for the introduction of hybrid technology and I would suggest that one way to do this is to look at services types. For example we could use the existing broad groups of:
  • intercity with speeds of 200km/h and higher, non-stop
  • inter-regional (150km/h to 200m/hr, infrequent stops)
  • country and inter-urban services (up to 150km/h with frequent stops)
  • suburban/metro (many stops, up to 150km/h).
For each of these groups the total power and the power-to-weight ratio are important parameters in the trains' performance.

I would suggest that in the foreseeable future the intercity group would continue to be pure electric on the grounds of the maximum installed power needed for high speeds and that the maximum diesel power that can be installed in an 80 tonne locomotive which meets the current and future emissions limits is about 3,500bhp - and that without any batteries on board. One of these at each end of an 8 or 9 coach train would push platform lengths to the limits. My few journeys to date in GWR's 'IETs' tell me that underfloor diesels - although quiet - do not give a journey experience commensurate with the cost of the ticket!

Similarly suburban and metro services operate within limited geographic areas - most of these are electrified already - and carrying diesel engines in such trains for the occasional branch line in these areas does not seem a good idea.

This leaves the inter-regional, inter-urban and countryside services where the speeds - and therefore the power needed - are not too high and would therefore be suitable candidates for hybrid drives of one form or another. Although several posters in these forums pour scorn on Vivarail, its attempts to produce a lightweight diesel and battery hybrid for branch and secondary line services deserve the support of everybody who want such lines to survive and prosper.

I agree with this and have said before on this forum that Northern have a number of suitable trial routes that start and end under wires for recharging via a raised pantograph. The ones that immediately spring to mind are as follows:

- Leeds to Carlisle; this stands under wires at both ends and can run on wires south of Skipton.
- Leeds to Morecambe; as above if the service were to operate to Leeds to Lancaster to Morecambe, the back to Lancaster to sit under wires. Then returned to Morecambe to form the return service, again via Lancaster. This could also run on wires between Lancaster and Carnforth.
- Newcastle to Carlisle.
- Leeds to Manchester Victoria.
- York to Blackpool.
- Harrogate Loop.

I personally think the Bentham Line between Skipton and Carnforth is the ideal trial of Vivarail's BEMU offering. The current service provision is pitiful so you haven't much to lose.

I'm also slightly disappointed that the new West Midlands franchise didn't opt for this on the Coventry to Nuneaton service.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,126
People give him a lot of leeway in that respect. He's been wading in promising the earth for years, and I no longer believe for a second that he doesn't realise these things are impossible in the short to medium term.
I think you have the wrong person there. Having handled Teslas, sufficiently to have gone through the recharging stages, they really are the first "proper car" with electric technology, and feel and handle like a proper car. They do seem to be catching on around the world, the only present downside is they are notably expensive, but they really do what it says on the tin. Likewise his SpaceX rockets do seem to have promised beyond the earth - and actually managed it.

I have long been sceptical of battery power's promises, recalling battery buses of the 1970s that the industry promised were gong to develop their capabilities and never did, but Elon and his team appear to have made the breakthrough.
 

takno

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
5,094
I think you have the wrong person there. Having handled Teslas, sufficiently to have gone through the recharging stages, they really are the first "proper car" with electric technology, and feel and handle like a proper car. They do seem to be catching on around the world, the only present downside is they are notably expensive, but they really do what it says on the tin. Likewise his SpaceX rockets do seem to have promised beyond the earth - and actually managed it.

I have long been sceptical of battery power's promises, recalling battery buses of the 1970s that the industry promised were gong to develop their capabilities and never did, but Elon and his team appear to have made the breakthrough.
He's done quite well with the Tesla, although I'm waiting to see the proper reasonably-priced version for the rest of us - so far he's spent 10-15 years getting to an interesting luxury oddity and he's arrived there about the same time as everybody else. What annoys me is throwing stuff like hyperloop out there in a cheap attempt to disrupt proper high-speed rail, and the current fixation with tunnelling which rather seems to push the idea that the people who've been at it for a hundred years just aren't doing it right and we should wait for him to fix it and buy his new patented version.
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,099
Location
Reading
Lets start then! Diesel engines are 30% efficient at crankshaft, then allow for lack of regenerative braking, idling & transmission losses etc then 15%, so that's just 50x15% = 7.5 megajoules/kg at the wheel. Ok, lets add the power pack of 16t, plus 4t of bits makes 20t for 1000l / 1t of fuel. 7.5 / 20t = 0.75 megajoules/kg in real terms.

So batteries are today at weight for weight matching a diesel and all of its engine / tanks / gearbox extra weight but not yet matching on capital cost, but are on whole life cost as the fuel cost is much lower on electric.

You have to calculate on a like for like basis. Weight = fuel + tank + engine + fuel system + gearbox; mega joules = fuel x engine efficiency x transmission losses x wasted energy from braking / idling. Electric looses just 10% of charging / discharging a battery and <1% on a capacitor.

Now super-capacitors. The latest polymer capacitors are 1000x that of the old style you quote, so well above diesels or batteries. They are in the labs today, powering test mobiles / laptops and soon, within a few years cars / busses, then trains

https://www.techworld.com/apps-wear...cars-that-charge-in-minutes-possible-3651281/

The Tesla battery started at 60 kW/h and is now 100 kW/h for the same weight, Nissan went from 24 to 30 to 45 and 60 KW/h for the same weight in a short time. I cannot find a decent graph for this at the moment, as they are all very complex for the average Joe.

So compare like with like and lets forget the fossil lobby & their dieselgate figures!
I think you do not understand the concept of specific energy - it is the energy stored per unit mass and in SI units is measured in joules per kilogram. The energy may be stored in the form of mass as shown by Einstein's famous formula, or in the stress in chemical bonds in the case of fuels and explosives, in the form of electro-chemical potentials as in batteries or electrostatic fields as in capacitors or even magnetic energy in a magnetic field. Tables of specific energy for different materials may be found in scientific papers and textbooks.

A related concept is energy density which is energy per unit volume.

Specific energy is an absolute measure of the state of the body in question and has nothing whatsoever to do with the manner in which useful work is extracted from the body or the 'fossil fuel lobby' whatever that may be.
 

squizzler

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2017
Messages
1,906
Location
Jersey, Channel Islands
Could the flip-side of hybrid technology be the opportunity to reduce weight of the AC (high voltage) components by making them smaller?. If you have onboard batteries or supercaps to operate away from the wires these could provide assist with acceleration and hill climbing. The onboard transformer might then be scaled back to that required for cruising and recharging the onboard storage. I understand the transformer is one of the heaviest single components of an EMU. Would a reduction in the transformer spec be sufficient as to partially offset the weight of the batteries or fuel cells? Perhaps if so we can start to address the "overweight EMU / underpowered DMU" argument against alternatives to straight electric.
 

hooverboy

On Moderation
Joined
12 Oct 2017
Messages
1,372
Could the flip-side of hybrid technology be the opportunity to reduce weight of the AC (high voltage) components by making them smaller?. If you have onboard batteries or supercaps to operate away from the wires these could provide assist with acceleration and hill climbing. The onboard transformer might then be scaled back to that required for cruising and recharging the onboard storage. I understand the transformer is one of the heaviest single components of an EMU. Would a reduction in the transformer spec be sufficient as to partially offset the weight of the batteries or fuel cells? Perhaps if so we can start to address the "overweight EMU / underpowered DMU" argument against alternatives to straight electric.

theoretically yes, you could be onto something.
replacing power MOSFET's thyristors and so on from silicon to gallium arsenide about halves the power dissipation in the components,meaning less requirement for huge heatsinks and so on.
as they run cooler it also means less failures as they bits don't go into thermal meltdown,so should improve reliability of the train.

silicon is used because it's dirt cheap,about 1/6 the price of GaAs., but what cost a train out of service? if you can increase the MTBF of a unit by 25%,and overhauls need to be done at much less frequent intervals

if the units in question are electric transmission ,rather than mechanical or hydraulic, it would be feasible to strip out the diesel plant with a LPG Microturbine attatched to a alternator/rectifier,which again is less than 1/3 the weight of a diesel plant,and have this powering the mainline load of the unit,and having an auxilliary battery powered of rheostatic brakes to give you a boost of acceleration coming out of a station..
certainly needs to be standardised at 750V,as that means you can use third rail as a backup feed-in system.

to make things even more efficient the exhaust of said turbine could house thermoelectric panels which is quite sufficient to power lights/Aircon,and the final exhaust can be used to run a pumped fluid heating system.

rolls royce already do such turbines in prototype cars,rated about 500BHP.50% more punch than a 153. , but I think there is some legal gubbins about use of LPG/LNG Via rail which is the stumbling block.curious really as the system is sort of already in use on public roads.
 
Last edited:

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
7,907
Location
Dalton GA USA & Preston Lancs
More recent reports on the failures of the overhead on both the West Coast main line and now the East Coast show that most failures were due to lack of maintenance rather than design flaws or weaknesses.

By all reports Railtrack, in its short life, did little or no maintenance on the overhead and Network Rail took ten years to realise the wires also needed repair from time to time.

Last month's Modern Railways pointed this out. It was they said a problem of "nurture" . I do not see over 43 years loads of failures on the northern fells -Preston - Glasgow.
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,589
Last month's Modern Railways pointed this out. It was they said a problem of "nurture" . I do not see over 43 years loads of failures on the northern fells -Preston - Glasgow.
To be fair, most of the Northern Fells route does not have headspans. However, the windier bits of the double track sections have had intermediate masts fitted to stop lateral displacement.
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,099
Location
Reading
To be fair, most of the Northern Fells route does not have headspans. However, the windier bits of the double track sections have had intermediate masts fitted to stop lateral displacement.
There was a report by Chris Gibb on the problems being faced on the Euston to Rugby section of the WCML in the period up to 2012. From Period 1 to Period 7 in 2012-13 there were 23,511 OHLE/third rail defects; after he had identified these and other problems the number of defects had been reduced to 8558 over the same Periods in 2013-14.
These, and many of the other defects and failures identified, were due to insufficient maintenance and a lack of appreciation of the cumulative effects on train reliability of many individually sub-critical faults. This area uses portal structures to support the wires, but problems were still occurring.

The report is well worth reading.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,502
Could the flip-side of hybrid technology be the opportunity to reduce weight of the AC (high voltage) components by making them smaller?. If you have onboard batteries or supercaps to operate away from the wires these could provide assist with acceleration and hill climbing. The onboard transformer might then be scaled back to that required for cruising and recharging the onboard storage. I understand the transformer is one of the heaviest single components of an EMU. Would a reduction in the transformer spec be sufficient as to partially offset the weight of the batteries or fuel cells? Perhaps if so we can start to address the "overweight EMU / underpowered DMU" argument against alternatives to straight electric.

This is an interesting proposal and sounds very similar to the research that I am currently involved in. However I am initially looking at whether an EMU hybrid can be used in DC areas to allow additional peak trains to run.

As far as I am aware the Desiro UK "Classic" is a notable example of an "overweight EMU". But I don't think the transfomer makes up a significant proportion of the overspecification.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,962
Location
Nottingham
Could the flip-side of hybrid technology be the opportunity to reduce weight of the AC (high voltage) components by making them smaller?. If you have onboard batteries or supercaps to operate away from the wires these could provide assist with acceleration and hill climbing. The onboard transformer might then be scaled back to that required for cruising and recharging the onboard storage. I understand the transformer is one of the heaviest single components of an EMU. Would a reduction in the transformer spec be sufficient as to partially offset the weight of the batteries or fuel cells? Perhaps if so we can start to address the "overweight EMU / underpowered DMU" argument against alternatives to straight electric.
To a large extent electric traction gives you this sort of benefit already.

The rating of the motors and transformers is generally determined by how soon they get unacceptably hot, which means they can exceed their continuous rating for short periods. This is ideal for a train where acceleration needs short bursts of power, usually greater than required when cruising at constant speed.
 

Jan

Member
Joined
22 Dec 2008
Messages
69
As an aside, I've always thought the German overhead installations, especially over multiple tracks at large stations, a particularly simple and elegant way of stringing up the wires.
If you are referring to headspans I think they are somewhat discredited in the UK.
Heck, even in Germany they're no longer the preferred solution as far as I'm aware. It's just that whereas the UK initially used portals (the original WCML electrification for example), switched to headspans for a while and now back again to portals, Germany had always used headspans until recently (apart from some experimental Swiss-lookalike portals in a station or two), so the installation base of already existing headspans is naturally much larger. But for new installations headspans are rather uncommon, although instead of portals normally this kind of multi-track cantilever is used (I think the two track variety is more common, but as that picture shows at least three tracks are possible as well).

So the Germans (and the Swiss, who also use this approach substantially) know nothing about reliable electrification methods?
The Swiss? To my mind, Swiss electrification is always associated with rigid portal masts, although maybe not quite as massive-looking as those typically used in the UK.
 

dgl

Established Member
Joined
5 Oct 2014
Messages
2,414
Wouldn't 'Wireless Power Transfer' negate the need for overhead and batteries ?
Sort of...
But it and always will be terribly inefficient, the actual amount of energy supplied to a device can be a small proportion of it's total energy consumption.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,072
Location
UK
Elon seems to be someone who promises the earth without actually realising it's not really possible/practical.

He's a visionary and a very good one at that, but I don't think he's letting on about his limitations either. He can't as he needs constant investment.

Bloomberg reported Tesla is losing $8000 a minute at the moment. He needs income from those willing to buy a truck/next gen roadster now, even if there's no firm delivery date.

That is quite worrying to me.

I am sure many of his ideas for the future are doable (not so sure about Hyperloop) but where's the money going to come from? Will investors keep giving him money forever?
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,589
He's a visionary and a very good one at that, but I don't think he's letting on about his limitations either. He can't as he needs constant investment.

I am sure many of his ideas for the future are doable (not so sure about Hyperloop) but where's the money going to come from? Will investors keep giving him money forever?
Part of me hopes his HGV will work. If it does, he has made a quantum leap in battery technology which could mean that battery EMUs for branch lines are back on the menu.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,278
Location
St Albans
Part of me hopes his HGV will work. If it does, he has made a quantum leap in battery technology which could mean that battery EMUs for branch lines are back on the menu.

The publicity said:
"the Semi Truck can go from zero-60mph in just five seconds and, even with a max load of 80,000lbs it can accelerate to 60mph in just 20 seconds."
What it doesn't say is that there is any acceleration or change of speed in the 500 miles with an 80k pound load. So just like with fossil fuelled and hybrid vehicles, the lies have started.
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,099
Location
Reading
The publicity said:
"the Semi Truck can go from zero-60mph in just five seconds and, even with a max load of 80,000lbs it can accelerate to 60mph in just 20 seconds."
...while the load neatly slides out through the back doors!

A lightly loaded artic can accelerate pretty well! Ever seen footage of lorry races?

What it doesn't say is that there is any acceleration or change of speed in the 500 miles with an 80k pound load. So just like with fossil fuelled and hybrid vehicles, the lies have started.
 

squizzler

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2017
Messages
1,906
Location
Jersey, Channel Islands
With this thread having drifted into discussion of the potential of electric road traction I thought I might offer a contrary view from transport history...

What many forget is that the railway was developed after the steam roadgoing vehicle had proved impractical due to its weight and crude controls being incompatible with the streets of the day (Trevithick built one whose boiler exploded after they broke down and retired to the pub). I think today's situation is a replay of the early years of the nineteenth century before people realised that steam powered land transport worked far better with rails. In fact I consider today's situation is even more in favour of rails than in the early nineteenth century with two key things in rail's favour, not one. Not only the new source of traction with electric power inherently easier to engineer where the vehicle can follow a fixed route under the conductor (and its way form the return circuit) we are also looking at automation, something to which the railway inherently better suited than the road.

Note this cartoon dated 1831...
1831-View-Whitechapel-Road-steam-carriage-caricature.jpg

By H. T. Alken [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top