Alternatives to power sockets on trains?

[Goldfish62]

Mod Note: Split from this thread.

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Of all the clamour for lifestyle add-ins to new trains, power outlets are (and will increasingly be so in the future) the most irrelevant. As has been said before here many times, it is within the control of those who feel such a desperate need for charging their devices to carry their own solution. If anything is justified here then it is wi-fi, as those who do manage their own device availability cannot (yet) have confidence in an at-seat network connection over GSM. Fortuitously, equipping a train with effective wi-fi is not particularly weight or power intensive so it is likely to become a reality but power, - not so.

Sorry mate, I may be a bit old fashioned but what alternative "solution" is there to charging a laptop other than to plug it into the mains?

And if it's so outmoded why are SWT having powerpoints on their Class 707s and why are bus and coach operators increasingly fitting them to vehicles used on long distance services?

 

[absolutelymilk]

Sorry mate, I may be a bit old fashioned but what alternative "solution" is there to charging a laptop other than to plug it into the mains?

And if it's so outmoded why are SWT having powerpoints on their Class 707s and why are bus and coach operators increasingly fitting them to vehicles used on long distance services?

You can get portable battery packs that will charge your laptop/phone for you - they are becoming increasingly affordable/efficient, but currently they are still not widespread

 

[AM9]

Sorry mate, I may be a bit old fashioned but what alternative "solution" is there to charging a laptop other than to plug it into the mains?

The alternative solution is for phones and tablets. Apparently, running office equipment like laptops is considered old-fashioned*, users will need to ensure that a) their batteries are fully charged
or b) they have higher rated batteries if their journey is that long, (average for Thameslink is 25 minutes).
* I still prefer a proper keyboard but that's just a personal preference. If my employment made on-train use of a laptop essential, I would expect to have a suitable battery as part of the job.

And if it's so outmoded why are SWT having powerpoints on their Class 707s and why are bus and coach operators increasingly fitting them to vehicles used on long distance services?

That has been explained to all in this thread by Class377/5 in post #2114 as to why the class 700s specifically won't have power outlets.

 

[Bald Rick]

Sorry mate, I may be a bit old fashioned but what alternative "solution" is there to charging a laptop other than to plug it into the mains?

Having your laptop fully charged before you leave home / office for a journey of less than 2 hours.

 

[jon0844]

Many laptops will happily charge from a portable battery pack just like a phone, tablet, camera etc.

You can get a 20,000 mAh pack for under £50 and probably do a full charge for your laptop and then some. They're about the size and weight of a small tablet and easy to carry.

 

[AM9]

Many laptops will happily charge from a portable battery pack just like a phone, tablet, camera etc.

You can get a 20,000 mAh pack for under £50 and probably do a full charge for your laptop and then some. They're about the size and weight of a small tablet and easy to carry.

OK, well they've moved on since I got my 6.6AH USB battery. Out of interest, do these high power batteries have a higher voltage than 5V USB ones as most latops seem to require something like 12-19V?

 

[absolutelymilk]

OK, well they've moved on since I got my 6.6AH USB battery.

Note that the 20,000 mAh is 20 Ah!

 

[jon0844]

OK, well they've moved on since I got my 6.6AH USB battery. Out of interest, do these high power batteries have a higher voltage than 5V USB ones as most latops seem to require something like 12-19V?

You can get higher voltage outputs on some, and Qualcomm Quick Charge units are 5, 9 and 12V. QC 3.0 may be higher.

While some laptops may have huge batteries (but I assume they last ages so it's not even such an issue for a train journey) many new devices charge via a simple micro USB or USB-C connection like any other phone. I am sure in time they'll all go this way.

 

[radamfi]

Many laptops will happily charge from a portable battery pack just like a phone, tablet, camera etc.

You can get a 20,000 mAh pack for under £50 and probably do a full charge for your laptop and then some. They're about the size and weight of a small tablet and easy to carry.

This 20 Ah one is now £16:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00SR5N5HU/ref=pe_385721_51767431_TE_dp_1

I've got one myself and whilst it definitely does the job, it does weight quite a lot. I've probably never got close to using half of that battery so far, so perhaps 20 Ah isn't really necessary.

 

[ComUtoR]

What about installing QI chargers in the tables ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The bigger ones will do a week for a smartphone.

 

[455driver]

I don't see why this is the railways problem, maybe manufacturers should look at making their phones/ tablet computers a bit bigger and using the extra space for a decent sized power pack or the end user needs to take responsibility (I didn't think that last point through did I, end user take responsibility )!
Modern stuff is just form over function.

I have an old laptop (I have had it 10 years and it was second hand when I bought it) and when the battery failed I got one which was twice the size with twice the capacity (it lifts the back of the laptop up it sticks out the bottom quite a bit) but it means I don't need to muck about with the charger.

What is the point of making the phones smaller if other people then have to provide charging points etc or the end user then needs to carry a power brick around with them because the phone battery cant last more than 2 hours of normal use!

 

[Minilad]

Maybe manufacturers could look at making their phones a bit bigger and using the extra space for a decent sized power pack!

What is the point of making the phones smaller if the end user then needs to carry a power brick around with them because the phone battery cant last more than 2 hours of normal use!

Because the punters want sleek designs I would guess.
Form over function

 

[Bletchleyite]

Phone conveniently in your pocket, power brick in your bag.

 

[455driver]

Form over function

I have just edited my original post to make the same point!

 

[northwichcat]

Having your laptop fully charged before you leave home / office for a journey of less than 2 hours.

If you're travelling to a meeting and have an almost empty battery when you arrive then you may not have the opportunity to fully recharge the battery before your journey home.
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What is the point of making the phones smaller if other people then have to provide charging points etc or the end user then needs to carry a power brick around with them because the phone battery cant last more than 2 hours of normal use!

I'm not really sure phones still are getting smaller, with more functions available people are wanting larger screens and then they use more power so require a more powerful battery to prevent it running out every couple of hours.

 

[455driver]

I'm not really sure phones still are getting smaller, with more functions available people are wanting larger screens and then they use more power so require a more powerful battery to prevent it running out every couple of hours.

Okay the screens are getting bigger but they are getting thinner, which I find rather pointless. Just make them a bit thicker and have a decent sized power pack, job done (or at least better than it is now).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Okay the screens are getting bigger but they are getting thinner, which I find rather pointless. Just make them a bit thicker and have a decent sized power pack, job done (or at least better than it is now).

If you want that, many of the more popular phones have "battery cases" on the market.

 

[jon0844]

Just don't buy that abomination from Apple for the iPhone 6, which must have been designed when Jony Ive was on holiday or off sick!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Wait, why the hate for power sockets? I love them - I have a recharger for my phone, but when you are heading out on a day of spotting and fancy watching some videos on your phone on the train out, you don't want to be draining valuable battery life or battery-pack charge for checking RTT later!

I notice that a lot of newer designs, particularly on buses, provide USB sockets only, which is not great for laptop users, but avoids the risk of people plugging in their hair curlers or other devices.

 

[jon0844]

It's easier for me to carry a USB lead without a transformer though. I use the same lead either way.

There's no hate for power sockets though, and I could live with both just as I have at home with twin sockets with twin 2.1A USB sockets.

 

[edwin_m]

Given the occasional propensity of rechargable battery packs to burst into flames, perhaps providing an alternative is justifiable on safety grounds?

We hear from time to time about trying to compete with the car by matching its comforts - well most cars provide USB charging these days and the train can actually do better with 240V sockets as well. No doubt they will be current-limited in case someone tries to boil a kettle, hopefully using breakers that don't take out the whole coach and reset themselves after a short period.

Power sockets on trains can be a big help for productivity on a long journey when even the biggest laptop batteries can run flat (and travelling with my work laptop is like lugging a paving slab, I can do without extra batteries as well!).

 

[jon0844]

If I needed a really powerful laptop (as I once did to do Photoshop and InDesign work) then I'd buy one with a decent battery to match. Being able to charge on the go would be a bonus, not a necessity.

That's why my current phone has a 3,450mAh battery.

I then carry a portable battery pack (or two) in case, but I don't usually have to use them. Battery anxiety does mean I wouldn't feel comfortable without at least one.

People can and do buy phones with tiny batteries that last just ten minutes, and no doubt the same for laptops, but there are other options out there. Jony Ive told everyone that he knew people preferred slim over bigger batteries, and a lot of people who disagreed were shot down because, well, Jony Ive. Now even Apple has conceded with a battery case, which is hideous.

I do hope in 2016 we'll see larger batteries in phones (some are now doing 4,000mAh and there's at least one phone out there with 5,000mAh), coupled with smaller chipsets that generate less heat and consume less power, we might be one step closer to proper all day battery life. Roll on 5 or 10 years, and I think we'll have cracked it.

I am travelling with a laptop for more than a day away, I'll pack my charger. It's not one that can charge via USB, however. I expect any new laptop I buy will be chargeable via USB.

In other words, in the future when these trains are still in service, there will be less need for power sockets. Or should I say, less actual usage. They can still be there obviously, but most people will not want to carry a transformer when that element can be fitted on the train itself - leaving you with a nice simple (and thin) cable.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

We hear from time to time about trying to compete with the car by matching its comforts - well most cars provide USB charging these days and the train can actually do better with 240V sockets as well. No doubt they will be current-limited in case someone tries to boil a kettle, hopefully using breakers that don't take out the whole coach and reset themselves after a short period.

Power sockets on trains can be a big help for productivity on a long journey when even the biggest laptop batteries can run flat (and travelling with my work laptop is like lugging a paving slab, I can do without extra batteries as well!).

I think that's the key point. The reason for providing power sockets is ultimately that many passengers want them, find them useful, and are more likely to travel by train if power sockets are available. If you want more people to use the train instead of driving (which I'd guess most of us do), then you need to - as far as reasonably practical - accommodate the needs of those people.

Incidentally I recall a recent Oxenholme-London journey on Virgin trains just before Xmas. I'd specifically reserved a seat with a power point, but found when I boarded the train that someone was already sitting there. But since it was a late evening service it was relatively quiet, so I just looked for somewhere else to sit. I was then somewhat amused when I looked around the carriage to realized that the only seats taken in that carriage were ones by tables (with power points) - and as far as I could see on a quick glance - most of the power points were actually being used. There was not a single person in that carriage sitting at a non-table/non-power-point seat! Perhaps that gives an idea of how in-demand power points can be.

 

[backontrack]

Incidentally I recall a recent Oxenholme-London journey on Virgin trains just before Xmas. I'd specifically reserved a seat with a power point, but found when I boarded the train that someone was already sitting there. But since it was a late evening service it was relatively quiet, so I just looked for somewhere else to sit. I was then somewhat amused when I looked around the carriage to realized that the only seats taken in that carriage were ones by tables (with power points) - and as far as I could see on a quick glance - most of the power points were actually being used. There was not a single person in that carriage sitting at a non-table/non-power-point seat! Perhaps that gives an idea of how in-demand power points can be.

Did you move the passenger?

 

[radamfi]

Trains are in service for so long that you can expect several generations of technology during its lifetime. For example, the Pendolinos were built with live radio and recorded audio at all seats which became irrelevant in a short time. But they didn't put in many power sockets and installed windows that prevent radio signals. There needs to be flexibility to alter configurations every few years if necessary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Incidentally I recall a recent Oxenholme-London journey on Virgin trains just before Xmas. I'd specifically reserved a seat with a power point, but found when I boarded the train that someone was already sitting there. But since it was a late evening service it was relatively quiet, so I just looked for somewhere else to sit. I was then somewhat amused when I looked around the carriage to realized that the only seats taken in that carriage were ones by tables (with power points) - and as far as I could see on a quick glance - most of the power points were actually being used. There was not a single person in that carriage sitting at a non-table/non-power-point seat! Perhaps that gives an idea of how in-demand power points can be.

And tables. It would be interesting to see the effect if power points were provided *only* at the "bad" seats i.e. tight legroom, no window airline seats.
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Trains are in service for so long that you can expect several generations of technology during its lifetime. For example, the Pendolinos were built with live radio and recorded audio at all seats which became irrelevant in a short time. But they didn't put in many power sockets and installed windows that prevent radio signals. There needs to be flexibility to alter configurations every few years if necessary.

As indeed there generally is - seats tend to be on tracks, and power sockets are reasonably easy to add, just as adding them and moving them around in houses is not very hard. But in 2000 power sockets weren't important as your Nokia lasted a week

 

[455driver]

Incidentally I recall a recent Oxenholme-London journey on Virgin trains just before Xmas. I'd specifically reserved a seat with a power point, but found when I boarded the train that someone was already sitting there. But since it was a late evening service it was relatively quiet, so I just looked for somewhere else to sit. I was then somewhat amused when I looked around the carriage to realized that the only seats taken in that carriage were ones by tables (with power points) - and as far as I could see on a quick glance - most of the power points were actually being used. There was not a single person in that carriage sitting at a non-table/non-power-point seat! Perhaps that gives an idea of how pathetic the batteries on modern phones can be.

Edited for accuracy!

 

[edwin_m]

Trains are in service for so long that you can expect several generations of technology during its lifetime. For example, the Pendolinos were built with live radio and recorded audio at all seats which became irrelevant in a short time. But they didn't put in many power sockets and installed windows that prevent radio signals. There needs to be flexibility to alter configurations every few years if necessary.

In this context I do wonder if USB sockets are sufficiently future-proof. The computer interfaces that were commonplace 20 years ago are unheard of today. Will USB go the same way before trains fitted with them today get a major overhaul that would allow replacement with something else? Whereas the 240 volt socket has a pedigree over many decades and doesn't look like changing soon (and versions can be had that also accept various international mains plugs).

The voltage of a USB socket may also be an issue if there are lots of them drawing high currents - one reason they aren't used to power laptops. Higher voltage doesn't necessarily mean lower safety as overloads are harder to detect at low voltages and high currents can cause overheating. A low-voltage halogen fitting at my mother-in-law's melted because of a bad connection to a screw terminal.

 

[jon0844]

There is an issue with USB C cables that Google brought up, where a cable can draw too much power and potentially get hot/melt, although the risk is slight and it's down to the lack of a suitable component in some cheap ones.

I expect that now the issue is known, it won't be a problem for very long.

So beyond that, I am sure there's no real issue with USB for some time to come - and it will still evolve, but almost certainly for supplying power, whatever happens to future cables, a basic charging cable will still be available as a USB-A to <new socket> and will at worst just charge slower.

Already now, my phone can take 3A but all the chargers I had until now were 2-2.1A.