Am I allowed this journey?

[s3an]

I have another spate of journeys from Hereford/Abergavenny to Paddington coming up over the next couple of months and have been playing with the FGW ticket page to look at prices.
I noticed that following a strange route I can get a cheaper ticket and wondered if I would be allowed to use it.

Traveling on a Monday, sort of.
If I get the 5.25 from Hereford, or the same train at 5.49 at Abergavenny, I change to the 6.38 from Newport to Paddington and it will cost £189.

If I put in start as Abergavenny and go via Hereford I am offered a ticket starting at 2345 on Sunday going Abergavenny -> Hereford -> Newport -> Paddington, with the train from Newport being the 638 and the cost being £62.50, as a Super Off-Peak Return. The train from Hereford to Newport is the 5.25.

Am I allowed to do the cheaper journey?
How will the guard/train manager know to accept my ticket?

Any suggestions for other ways to get the cost down? I suspect a split at Swindon but am open to suggestions.
I need to get to London before 10.30

 

[Terrafire]

Well that ticket has restriction 2Q, meaning it's only valid on trains out of Newport before 0545, so are you sure it offered you that price for the 0638, and not the 0532?

If you split at Hereford, and go via Evesham, you could get (assuming you want a period return) two Anytime Day Singles either way between Abergavenny and Hereford (£9.10 x 2), and an Off-Peak Return from Hereford to London Terminals (£50.50, 4N valid on departures from Hereford after 0630 only), you'd be covered for the 0553 departure from Abergavenny, arriving at Hereford 0614 for the 0644 departure to Paddington, arriving at 0947, for a total cost of £68.70.

 

[s3an]

Wouldn't the outbound portion of your ticket be valid only the Sunday though?

this is what the itinerary says:

Journey summary
Outward Journey (22 Jan 2012) Depart Arrive Travel by Train company Duration
23:45 Abergavenny 00:17 Hereford Train ARRIVA TRAINS WALES 00h 32

05:25 Hereford 06:16 Newport Gwent Train ARRIVA TRAINS WALES 00h 51

06:38
Newport Gwent 08:33 London Paddington Train FIRST GREAT WESTERN 01h 55

 

[Paul Kelly]

This is a very interesting one. I can confirm what s3an is seeing on the FGW (Trainline-based) booking engine. The best explanation I can come up with is:

1. The double-back between Hereford and Abergavenny is being inadvertently allowed by easement 700010 "Customers travelling via Bristol Parkway to Cwmbran, Pontypool & New Inn or Abergavenny may travel via Newport. This easement applies in both directions."

2. The train on Sunday evening will have departed Newport within the times allowed by restriction 2Q (before it gets to Abergavenny). Perhaps because of this the booking engine thinks it has its "Newport checking" done and doesn't bother checking whether another train later in the journey departs Newport at a barred time.

I really don't think it's supposed to be valid though, but if you get reservations on the trains and bring a print-out of the itinerary from FGW's website, you might be allowed to travel.

 

[Terrafire]

This is a very interesting one. I can confirm what s3an is seeing on the FGW (Trainline-based) booking engine. The best explanation I can come up with is:

1. The double-back between Hereford and Abergavenny is being inadvertently allowed by easement 700010 "Customers travelling via Bristol Parkway to Cwmbran, Pontypool & New Inn or Abergavenny may travel via Newport. This easement applies in both directions."

2. The train on Sunday evening will have departed Newport within the times allowed by restriction 2Q (before it gets to Abergavenny). Perhaps because of this the booking engine thinks it has its "Newport checking" done and doesn't bother checking whether another train later in the journey departs Newport at a barred time.

I really don't think it's supposed to be valid though, but if you get reservations on the trains and bring a print-out of the itinerary from FGW's website, you might be allowed to travel.

Point 2 there is plausible, but I don't see how the first point could be true. Easement 700010 makes no mention at all of Hereford; it simply permits the obvious (and presumably already permitted) route from Bristol Parkway to the three stations.

My only suggestion is that the journey planner is not counting the departure station as one already travelled through for the purposes of checking doubling back. Otherwise I'm stumped.

But, s3an, take the printed itinerary with you, and if you follow it exactly, you'll be allowed to follow it, albeit with some hassle. The journey planners have been claimed to be definitive by the TOCs many times. Although I suggest for £6 more you take the itinerary I mentioned further up, which comes with no hassle at all.

 

[FGWman]

Of course you would have to spend 5 hours at Hereford station from 0032 to 0525 - do you really want to do that !!

 

[Paul Kelly]

Point 2 there is plausible, but I don't see how the first point could be true. Easement 700010 makes no mention at all of Hereford; it simply permits the obvious (and presumably already permitted) route from Bristol Parkway to the three stations.

Not exactly. Maybe that is the intention, but it's not what the easement says! If you think in more depth about how the journey planners and routeing engines work, there are a number of stages.

1. Plan a selection of potential journeys based on fastest journey time, accommodating any via points input by the user.
2. Apply the routeing guide (shortest route, direct trains, mapped routes) to check whether the routes are valid or not. Make a note of any invalid routes but don't delete them yet.
3. Apply the easement list to see if any routes that were detected as invalid are made valid by an easement. If so, reinstate them.

So it doesn't matter what made the original route invalid, if it matches the easement, it will be made valid again. This is why ATOC need to be more careful when writing easements!

The route from Abergavenny to Paddington via Hereford and then doubling back to Newport is obviously not permitted because of the double-back. But the booking engine won't have kept track of this as the reason for it being invalid. It will simply look at the easement and ask:
Does the journey go via Bristol Parkway?
Does the journey start or end at Cwmbran, Pontypool & New Inn, or Abergavenny?
If so, then if the journey goes via Newport it is a permitted route.

Easements override everything else. I believe someone got that confirmed by a representative of ATOC recently.

For something similar have a look at easement 700076 "Customers travelling from either the West Kirby or New Brighton Line Stations to or via Shotton may travel via Birkenhead Hamilton Square. This easement applies in both directions."
Go back to the FGW site (or National Rail Enquiries) and put in West Kirby to Shotton via Manchester Piccadilly and see what it comes up with. There is some very sloppy easement writing going on...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course you would have to spend 5 hours at Hereford station from 0032 to 0525 - do you really want to do that !!

Just being pedantic I know, but you wouldn't as it's not an advance fare - it is a super off-peak return and break of journey / starting short is permitted.

 

[Terrafire]

have a look at easement 700076 "Customers travelling from either the West Kirby or New Brighton Line Stations to or via Shotton may travel via Birkenhead Hamilton Square. This easement applies in both directions."
Go back to the FGW site (or National Rail Enquiries) and put in West Kirby to Shotton via Manchester Piccadilly and see what it comes up with. There is some very sloppy easement writing going on...

All I can say is... BWAHAHAHA. I'm speechless. You know, I'd often suspected that the journey planners had some hidden, 'better' routeing guide to follow than us plebs. But this definitely proves me wrong.

 

[34D]

But, s3an, take the printed itinerary with you, and if you follow it exactly, you'll be allowed to follow it, albeit with some hassle. The journey planners have been claimed to be definitive by the TOCs many times. Although I suggest for £6 more you take the itinerary I mentioned further up, which comes with no hassle at all.

I'd say that with reservations the guard will be unlikely to question too much.... On the basis that the system allows the reservation.

 

[s3an]

But, s3an, take the printed itinerary with you, and if you follow it exactly, you'll be allowed to follow it, albeit with some hassle. The journey planners have been claimed to be definitive by the TOCs many times. Although I suggest for £6 more you take the itinerary I mentioned further up, which comes with no hassle at all.

The big problem is when I read some of the threads on here where people get more than hassle during legitimate journeys.
If I make a mistake with my costings I can't go back after a client has agreed the price and demand more money. If I buy something on offer at Tescos they can't come round my house after I've paid and demand more money. It does seem that on the railway you can have your ticket declared invalid, made to pay more money and/or threatened with legal action, having purchased a ticket and be following all the conditions associated with it.

It only works on Sunday/Monday, but would allow a peakish journey at a reasonable cost.

The Evesham route is less flexible, but I do sometimes go that way. As for it being less hassle, I'm not sure. A few years ago FGW experimented with starting a couple of the early Hereford -> Paddington trains from Abergavenny, but with cheaper tickets than from Hereford, presumably due to the way the system was set up. I was frequently told my ticket wasn't valid and that I'd have to pay more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd say that with reservations the guard will be unlikely to question too much.... On the basis that the system allows the reservation.

Is there any way I can check if reservations would be allowed without buying the ticket first?

 

[yorkie]

The big problem is when I read some of the threads on here where people get more than hassle during legitimate journeys.

Agreed. But if you book online and adhere to the itinerary and bring reservations and the itinerary when you travel, then I believe the TOCs are obliged to accept it. If they did not they would be in breach of contract (no matter how bonkers the route is).

If I make a mistake with my costings I can't go back after a client has agreed the price and demand more money. If I buy something on offer at Tescos they can't come round my house after I've paid and demand more money. It does seem that on the railway you can have your ticket declared invalid, made to pay more money and/or threatened with legal action, having purchased a ticket and be following all the conditions associated with it.

Indeed but the offer can change between you seeing it and purchasing it. So do not buy it from the station or on board and rely on the "but the website says..." argument. My advice is to purchase online, obtain reservations, obtain an itinerary, bring it all and use the ticket in exact accordance with the itinerary. It is my understanding an additional fare (whether paid up front or in the form of a UPFN) would be totally incorrect in such circumstances. It would be a breach of contract by the TOC.

A few years ago FGW experimented with starting a couple of the early Hereford -> Paddington trains from Abergavenny, but with cheaper tickets than from Hereford, presumably due to the way the system was set up. I was frequently told my ticket wasn't valid and that I'd have to pay more.

Depends on whether BOJ is (or was) permitted or not.

Is there any way I can check if reservations would be allowed without buying the ticket first?

Don't use Takethetrain! Most websites will let you know before you buy, for example I (and many others) use East Coast. Make sure you tick the option to obtain reservations. It will tell you what seats you are booked on.

Takethetrain must be avoided in these scenarios as it only tells you after you booked!

That said IMO either an itinerary or reservations will suffice, but to cover yourself, get both (especially as some trains may be non-reserveable).

No customer should ever be given a UPFN in such a circumstance and I've had it confirmed from high up that would be incorrect action by a guard/RPI. However if they think the ticket has been incorrectly issued they can withdraw it and issue you a free replacement ticket at no cost to you. The original ticket can then be sent back to the issuer so they can investigate the issue and, if it is an error, fix it, so that you pay the higher price in future. However this is very rare.

 

[Chapeltom]

For something similar have a look at easement 700076 "Customers travelling from either the West Kirby or New Brighton Line Stations to or via Shotton may travel via Birkenhead Hamilton Square. This easement applies in both directions."
Go back to the FGW site (or National Rail Enquiries) and put in West Kirby to Shotton via Manchester Piccadilly and see what it comes up with. There is some very sloppy easement writing going on...

I wonder what the G4S lot would say at Piccadilly

 

[Paul Kelly]

2. The train on Sunday evening will have departed Newport within the times allowed by restriction 2Q (before it gets to Abergavenny). Perhaps because of this the booking engine thinks it has its "Newport checking" done and doesn't bother checking whether another train later in the journey departs Newport at a barred time.

Another, perhaps more likely, explanation for this might be the following quote from the general conditions applied to super off-peak tickets in NFM11:

Where a journey continues into
the next day, travel must
resume before 1200 and any
relevant time restrictions
apply (except where regarded
as an unbroken continuation of
the previous days' travel
where the first connection of
the day may be taken).

Because it's the last train of the night and the first train of the morning respectively to and from Hereford, maybe this condition applies.

 

[bb21]

This is correct. The first connecting service of the following day may be used after stopping overnight if the journey could not be completed on the first day, irrespective of time restrictions applicable to the ticket.