Amended timetable for Govia Thameslink Railway services on Brighton mainline

[RichardKing]

The overhauled timetable for Southern and Gatwick Express services, which will begin in mid-December, has been released on TRUST sources. Some services will see drastic changes, whereas, others will see more minor ones.
This timetable will see the withdrawal of the 442s from Southern (excluding the Eastbourne commuter services up until 2018) and, more predominantly, Gatwick Express services. It will facilitate the introduction of the 387/2s.

To give anyone who has yet to see the timetable an insight, what follows is the overhauled off-peak departure schedule (weekday) from London Victoria:
XX:00 - Gatwick Express service to Brighton (calling at Gatwick Airport and Brighton);
XX:06 - Southern service to Portsmouth Harbour & Bognor Regis (not calling at Redhill);
XX:09 - Southern service to Reigate (calling at Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Redhill and Reigate);
XX:15 - Gatwick Express service to Gatwick Airport; *
XX:17 - Southern service to Littlehampton & Eastbourne; *
XX:20 - Southern service to Brighton (calling at Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Hassocks and Brighton);
XX:23 - Southern service to East Grinstead; *
XX:30 - Gatwick Express service to Brighton (refer to XX:00 calling pattern);
XX:36 - Southern service to Southampton Central to Bognor Regis (not calling at Redhill);
XX:39 - Southern service to Tonbridge (calling at Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Redhill, Nutfield, Godstone, Edenbridge, Penshurst, Leigh and Tonbridge);
XX:45 - Gatwick Express service to Gatwick Airport; *
XX:47 - Southern service to Ore & Littlehampton; *
XX:50 - Southern service to Brighton (calling at Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Horley, Burgess Hill and Brighton);
XX:53 - Southern service to East Grinstead. *

*Services without calling points listed means no (or very minor) alterations.

Notable Changes:
- The Portsmouth Harbour/Southampton Central & Bognor Regis services will run down the Quarry Line and, therefore, won't serve Redhill. The Reigate and Tonbridge (and Thameslink) services will act as a replacement for these services.
- Two Gatwick Express services an hour will run to/from Brighton as extension-based services.
- Brighton services operating under Southern will call additionally at Horley, Burgess Hill and Hassocks in both directions. Brighton Express services, as we know them today, will cease to exist.

The peak-time schedule (to/from London Victoria) will not see many significant changes. However, some services (peak-time and off-peak) to/from London Bridge may be slightly altered due to the upgrade work.

If anyone, especially those who cannot access TRUST sources, would like any further information regarding the changes I'd be more than happy to provide.




I forgot to put this into the 'Allocations, Diagrams and Timetables' section. I'm not entirely sure how to move it into this section. If someone could do it for me, I'd be most grateful.

 

[185143]

I'll be that person

Where are the 442s going?

 

[RichardKing]

I'll be that person

Where are the 442s going?

Cheers mate

The 442s (apart from six of them, I believe) will be returned to the company Southern leased them from. From that point, I have no idea what will happen to them. There have been endless discussions on what they could be used for!

 

[185143]

I'll be that person

Where are the 442s going?

Cheers mate

The 442s (apart from six of them, I believe) will be returned to the company Southern leased them from. From that point, I have no idea what will happen to them. There have been endless discussions on what they could be used for!

I know, I could make a long list of frankly rather daft 442 ideas I've had alone!

 

[RichardKing]

I know, I could make a long list of frankly rather daft 442 ideas I've had alone!

My idea would be that they remain on their current duties. I will be VERY sad to see them go. One consolation is that they are being kept on Eastbourne services until 2018!

 

[Chris M]

I know, I could make a long list of frankly rather daft 442 ideas I've had alone!

The daftest I've personally seen is to use them on London Overground services to Enfield Town...

 

[physics34]

are there any major changes to the peak service or the metro?

 

[mr_jrt]

I wonder why the sudden love for Horley, Burgess Hill and Hassocks? Burgess Hill I can kind of understand, but if you were going to turn the fast services into semi-fast services, I'd have expected stops at more notable stations - Haywards Heath, Three Bridges, Gatwick, etc. rather than Horley and and Hassocks.

 

[talldave]

Is there still an 09.20 Gatwick to Victoria departure M-F? That being the first service on which a 'C0' Off Peak ticket is valid.

 

[Stats]

I wonder why the sudden love for Horley, Burgess Hill and Hassocks? Burgess Hill I can kind of understand, but if you were going to turn the fast services into semi-fast services, I'd have expected stops at more notable stations - Haywards Heath, Three Bridges, Gatwick, etc. rather than Horley and and Hassocks.

They're not converting fast to semi-fast; the frequency of the semi-fast is being doubled. The station calls are to maintain 1tph to Victoria from these stations which they already recieve. They are not getting any additional services to Victoria from any of these stations. As for Three Bridges and haywards heath, Three Bridges has services to Victoria from the Arun Valley, Haywards Heath has services to Victoria from East Mainline, and both have services to Brighton with Thameslink.

What is interesting is the change from the draft timetable in the consultation. In that timetable evrything stopped at Gatwick. Now it seems the Horley stop has been removed from the Southampton service as well as Redhill, and the Brighton semi-fast takes up the Horley call for Victoria trains in place of calling at Gatwick.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My idea would be that they remain on their current duties. I will be VERY sad to see them go. One consolation is that they are being kept on Eastbourne services until 2018!

But it will be very welcome if the 387s enables the 0850 from Gatwick (coming from Brighton) to have more carriages which it desparately needs.
(Lets not turn this into a 442 thread)

 

[paul1609]

it'll be hugely popular in West Sussex reversing the mad decision to run the Arun Valley services via Redhill which at a stroke of a pen destroyed reliability of all services west of the Brighton Main Line.

 

[RichardKing]

are there any major changes to the peak service or the metro?

From what I can see, the only changes to both of the above are services arriving/departing a few minutes earlier/later.

However, as I mentioned, the schedule at London Bridge (most notably, arrivals) is subject to more alterations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there still an 09.20 Gatwick to Victoria departure M-F? That being the first service on which a 'C0' Off Peak ticket is valid.

Yes, the 09:20 will continue to run.

 

[tsr]

it'll be hugely popular in West Sussex reversing the mad decision to run the Arun Valley services via Redhill which at a stroke of a pen destroyed reliability of all services west of the Brighton Main Line.

Trust me, Redhill users will be glad to be shot of them as they are cancelled half the time anyway - and when they're not, we've always got them running late at least several times a day due to things happening at random halts we almost haven't heard of in Hampshire.

The only downside is that a lot of capacity from Redhill fast to the Gatwick and Crawley areas will be lost, but there are all-day Thameslinks from December (something which should ideally have happened already, ahem), which will make life a million times easier for what is sometimes a surprising volume of passengers for Blackfriars, St Pancras, EMT destinations and Eurostar.

 

[RichardKing]

They're not converting fast to semi-fast; the frequency of the semi-fast is being doubled. The station calls are to maintain 1tph to Victoria from these stations which they already recieve. They are not getting any additional services to Victoria from any of these stations. As for Three Bridges and haywards heath, Three Bridges has services to Victoria from the Arun Valley, Haywards Heath has services to Victoria from East Mainline, and both have services to Brighton with Thameslink.

What is interesting is the change from the draft timetable in the consultation. In that timetable evrything stopped at Gatwick. Now it seems the Horley stop has been removed from the Southampton service as well as Redhill, and the Brighton semi-fast takes up the Horley call for Victoria trains in place of calling at Gatwick.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But it will be very welcome if the 387s enables the 0850 from Gatwick (coming from Brighton) to have more carriages which it desparately needs.
(Lets not turn this into a 442 thread)

Putting 5 coaches on a service at that time is rather mad!
As I say, I'm glad they'll still be around until 2018 (even if they're only on 2 services a day).

 

[paul1609]

Trust me, Redhill users will be glad to be shot of them as they are cancelled half the time anyway - and when they're not, we've always got them running late at least several times a day due to things happening at random halts we almost haven't heard of in Hampshire.

The only downside is that a lot of capacity from Redhill fast to the Gatwick and Crawley areas will be lost, but there are all-day Thameslinks from December (something which should ideally have happened already, ahem), which will make life a million times easier for what is sometimes a surprising volume of passengers for Blackfriars, St Pancras, EMT destinations and Eurostar.

In truth very few of them actually make it to Hampshire in the first place the Ex London trains having followed a late running stopping service from Crowsnest Junction to Three Bridges plus the mysterious 5 min wait for platform 3 at Gatwick Southbound miss their path along the coastway and are turned back at that well known Govia Station Chichester Hampshire Parkway. Southern used to divert all the Southampton trains to turn back at Southampton-Fratton until outraged Pompey Fans rubber tyred all the new station signs.
Northbound trains fared little better with the famous watching the daisys grow 10 minute interlude before taking the 10 mph restriction in to Redhill platform!

 

[JonathanH]

it'll be hugely popular in West Sussex reversing the mad decision to run the Arun Valley services via Redhill which at a stroke of a pen destroyed reliability of all services west of the Brighton Main Line.

Huh? Arun Valley line trains have run via Redhill off-peak for at least the last 15 years (May 1994 in fact).

The prioritisation of the Gatwick Express distorts a lot of the service patterns in the new timetable with notable 12/13 minute gaps in fast services between London Victoria and East Croydon and bunching of stopping services at Brighton line stations.

It will be interesting to see if they really do stick with this timetable south of East Croydon come December 2018.

 

[Phil.]

In truth very few of them actually make it to Hampshire in the first place the Ex London trains having followed a late running stopping service from Crowsnest Junction to Three Bridges plus the mysterious 5 min wait for platform 3 at Gatwick Southbound miss their path along the coastway and are turned back at that well known Govia Station Chichester Hampshire Parkway. Southern used to divert all the Southampton trains to turn back at Southampton-Fratton until outraged Pompey Fans rubber tyred all the new station signs.
Northbound trains fared little better with the famous watching the daisys grow 10 minute interlude before taking the 10 mph restriction in to Redhill platform!

Where did that 10mph restriction come from? It never used to be there. Where will the replacement for the ex Arun Valley East Croydon - Clapham Junction - Victoria's come from.
The train doesn't terminate at Victoria, the journey does.

 

[JonathanH]

Where did that 10mph restriction come from? It never used to be there. Where will the replacement for the ex Arun Valley East Croydon - Clapham Junction - Victoria's come from.
The train doesn't terminate at Victoria, the journey does.

The replacement is a Reigate / Tonbridge - Redhill -London Victoria service that leaves East Croydon at xx04 / xx34.

This is followed by the Brighton semi-fast at xx08 / xx38, the Littlehampton / Eastbourne service at xx11 / xx41, Gatwick Express (fast) at xx14 / xx14, the East Grinstead at xx15 / xx45 and then the Arun Valley at xx22 / xx52.

With the Reigate / Tonbridge following a stopping service out of Redhill, having to cross at Stoats Nest Junction, being a short train and being the first train to Victoria for 12 minutes, it looks like a bit of a performance risk.

Example hour shown here
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...IC/2015/12/15/1200?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[Phil.]

Sorry, didn't make my post clear enough. When I asked of the East Croydon - Clapham Junction - Victorias I meant that that is the current stopping pattern from Redhill of our fast trains off the Arun Valley. Are you saying that the Tonbridge/Reigates are going to be fast from Redhill rather than stoppers which they are now? I'm just afeared that the fast Victorias will be lost to an All day Thameslink service which is not a good trade-off bearing in mind we had those fast Victorias as well as an hourly Thameslink (XX.09 ex Gatwick) when the Thameslinks were introduced.

 

[JonathanH]

Sorry, didn't make my post clear enough. When I asked of the East Croydon - Clapham Junction - Victorias I meant that that is the current stopping pattern from Redhill of our fast trains off the Arun Valley. Are you saying that the Tonbridge/Reigates are going to be fast from Redhill rather than stoppers which they are now? I'm just afeared that the fast Victorias will be lost to an All day Thameslink service which is not a good trade-off bearing in mind we had those fast Victorias as well as an hourly Thameslink (XX.09 ex Gatwick) when the Thameslinks were introduced.

Yes, the Reigate / Tonbridge services take over the role of the "fast" service from Redhill to Victoria. Northbound, they overtake the "Thameslink" service north of Coulsdon South.

Both the Thameslink service and the Horsham to London Bridge service call at Merstham, Coulsdon South and Purley taking Merstham's service up to 4tph.

Arun Valley services continue to run in their current weekday evening times through Redhill northbound from the 1746 to Victoria and southbound from the 1902 from Victoria.

 

[sarahj]

In truth very few of them actually make it to Hampshire in the first place the Ex London trains having followed a late running stopping service from Crowsnest Junction to Three Bridges plus the mysterious 5 min wait for platform 3 at Gatwick Southbound miss their path along the coastway and are turned back at that well known Govia Station Chichester Hampshire Parkway. Southern used to divert all the Southampton trains to turn back at Southampton-Fratton until outraged Pompey Fans rubber tyred all the new station signs.
Northbound trains fared little better with the famous watching the daisys grow 10 minute interlude before taking the 10 mph restriction in to Redhill platform!

The Southampton's that are not gonna make it, turn round at Fareham mainly, which involves a total of 4 shunts to get back into service. I've not often terminated at Chi, in fact in 8 years can count on one hand, and one of them was due to blizzards. On pompy's, sometimes Havant, most times Fratton.


BTW, are the Littlehamptons going to have the planned stopping pattern of:

1 x hr :Burgess Hill, Preston Park, Hove, Portslade, Shoreham, Lancing, Worthing then WWO, DUR, GBS, ANG then LIT
and 1x hr : Hove, Shoreham, Worthing, then WWO, DUR, GBS, ANG then LIT

???

 

[HarleyDavidson]

SN should never have been granted access to Southampton in the first place, nor should they have been allowed to add any more trains to Portsmouth either as the timetable on the Coastway West is pathetic.

It falls to pieces at the slightest knock and they're always delaying SWT's 1Pxx services at Havant as they're always late. I'm forever scoring TINs on them, they must be paying a fortune in penalties to SWT for the number of trains they delay. I've sat on Havant junction for 5 or more minutes waiting for a poxy 313 to come wandering in from Chi!!

 

[JonathanH]

SN should never have been granted access to Southampton in the first place, nor should they have been allowed to add any more trains to Portsmouth either as the timetable on the Coastway West is pathetic.

It falls to pieces at the slightest knock and they're always delaying SWT's 1Pxx services at Havant as they're always late. I'm forever scoring TINs on them, they must be paying a fortune in penalties to SWT for the number of trains they delay. I've sat on Havant junction for 5 or more minutes waiting for a poxy 313 to come wandering in from Chi!!

Southern and its predecessors have been running from the West Coastway into Southampton since the Solent Link electrification was completed in 1990.

What service should be run along the south coast?

 

[sarahj]

SN should never have been granted access to Southampton in the first place, nor should they have been allowed to add any more trains to Portsmouth either as the timetable on the Coastway West is pathetic.

It falls to pieces at the slightest knock and they're always delaying SWT's 1Pxx services at Havant as they're always late. I'm forever scoring TINs on them, they must be paying a fortune in penalties to SWT for the number of trains they delay. I've sat on Havant junction for 5 or more minutes waiting for a poxy 313 to come wandering in from Chi!!

Funny, for us at Southern it seems the other way around. The second we hit SWT land at Warblington we become second class trains. I've even left Southampton on time to be held before St Deny's while a SWT or even worse a FGW is put in front of us. Thus by the time we get to Fareham we are then 10 plus mins late. This then causes delays through Havant, if we get a pompy littlehampton stopper in front, heaven help us. Delayed at Horsham for the join. This then means folks are tapping their heels at Redhill as we miss them out. For a trip of the 2 hours, 45 that a Sou to Vic train is, being 10 mins late at your first stop of Swanwick, means delays all the way and no chance of catch up.

But perhaps its perception, we have mentioned it before on here. Us on our 313's feel we are being held up by you SWT lot, and you SWT guys moaning about being held up by our trundling 313's

 

[paul1609]

SN should never have been granted access to Southampton in the first place, nor should they have been allowed to add any more trains to Portsmouth either as the timetable on the Coastway West is pathetic.

It falls to pieces at the slightest knock and they're always delaying SWT's 1Pxx services at Havant as they're always late. I'm forever scoring TINs on them, they must be paying a fortune in penalties to SWT for the number of trains they delay. I've sat on Havant junction for 5 or more minutes waiting for a poxy 313 to come wandering in from Chi!!

From a passenger point of view it seems to me that the common reason the SWT train is held at Havant is that whilst the Brighton train is late so is the SWT XX00 from waterloo which is typically 5 to 10 mins late departing Petersfield having for some reason lost time in the Godalming area (tsrs ?). If the SWT arrived at Havant on time it would probably be let in in front of the Brighton to Portsmouth 313 however when both trains arrive late it makes sense to send them through in the right order to minimise platforming issues at Portsmouth Harbour.

 

[swt_passenger]

What they probably need to do (in an ideal world with unlimited funding) is provide double ended access to Fareham platform 2, and make it bidirectional. You'd get an easier way of terminating SN services short, but also a place to hold the SWT stopper and allowing a late running SN service towards Southampton to overtake.

A third central bidirectional platform at Havant wouldn't be a bad idea either...

 

[GodAtum]

Are there any changes to these trains:

1811 Clapham - East Croydon
1837 Clapham - East Croydon
1841 Clapham - East Croydon

 

[zoneking]

The people of Coulsdon are not happy at all about these changes.

They will lose two fast services into London. These will be replaced by the Thameslink services to Blackfriars which are notoriously slow, having to take the Crystal Palace diversion. They will also lose direct services to Reigate and Tonbridge and will lose the hourly Tattenham Corner shuttle.

 

[JonathanH]

The people of Coulsdon are not happy at all about these changes.

They will lose two fast services into London. These will be replaced by the Thameslink services to Blackfriars which are notoriously slow, having to take the Crystal Palace diversion. They will also lose direct services to Reigate and Tonbridge and will lose the hourly Tattenham Corner shuttle.

The people of Reigate weren't happy when Coulsdon got stops in the xx02 services from Victoria in the evening removing their connections at Redhill.

These changes were consulted on earlier this year. That was the time for the people of Coulsdon to make representations to Southern about their dislike of the timetable.

 

[Stats]

The people of Coulsdon are not happy at all about these changes.

They will lose two fast services into London. These will be replaced by the Thameslink services to Blackfriars which are notoriously slow, having to take the Crystal Palace diversion.

which will revert to the "fast" service to London Bridge when London Bridge development works are complete. Frankly, I would be pleased to have more choice of destinations and a direct connection through London.

will lose the hourly Tattenham Corner shuttle.

Which nobody uses.