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Amsterdam - London, no need to detrain

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anme

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Thanks for reactions. We will see what competitors propose. The main issue for beating airlines (the competition) is maximum convenience (for business users) coupled with minimum cost (for leisure users). I believe that straightforward end to end services is the best marketing strategy and if Rotterdam is a goer for end to end, a few services per day, non-stop for commuting businessmen, would do well, I'm sure.

If we run services to Amsterdam and Rotterdam, and we want to avoid detraining at Lille, we need emigration controls and security at Amsterdam and Rotterdam. That's no different whether services run non-stop or not. Now let's say each city justifies one train per day (a Eurostar train holds approx. 800 people, or about 5-6 plane loads, so that's already a lot).

We could run one non-stop train per day to each city. One train per day is not very competitive with airlines when it comes to flexibility. Next Tuesday, British Airways operate 20 flights from AMS and London airports, and KLM/Air France operate 18. You can add Easyjet's flights as well. Neither business or lesire travellers are likely to hang around for many hours, or stay a extra night (incurring extra cost) to catch the next train when so many flights are available.

Or we could run two trains per day, stopping at both, taking a few minutes longer (which is not significant in a 4 hour journey), but offering twice the flexibility. Still not very flexible on timing, but certainly better.

So if we want Eurostar to compete, we need it to stop in Rotterdam. And much as I hate to say it, maybe Antwerp too.

BTW, I agree that Eurostar will not carry passengers only between Amsterdam and Rotterdam (and Antwerp).

Remember that Thalys can stop at Rotterdam and Brussels on the way to Paris, because it's all inter-Schengen. Another few more outrages and that may not last, by the way.

British people are very confused about the nature of borders in Europe. Do you believe that before Schengen, every border had an impenetrable wall along it? Could you explain how the Thalys' intermediate stops have contributed to terrorist attacks?
 
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Bald Rick

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If we run services to Amsterdam and Rotterdam, and we want to avoid detraining at Lille, we need emigration controls and security at Amsterdam and Rotterdam. That's no different whether services run non-stop or not. Now let's say each city justifies one train per day (a Eurostar train holds approx. 800 people, or about 5-6 plane loads, so that's already a lot).

We could run one non-stop train per day to each city. One train per day is not very competitive with airlines when it comes to flexibility. Next Tuesday, British Airways operate 20 flights from AMS and London airports, and KLM/Air France operate 18. You can add Easyjet's flights as well. Neither business or lesire travellers are likely to hang around for many hours, or stay a extra night (incurring extra cost) to catch the next train when so many flights are available.

Or we could run two trains per day, stopping at both, taking a few minutes longer (which is not significant in a 4 hour journey), but offering twice the flexibility. Still not very flexible on timing, but certainly better.

So if we want Eurostar to compete, we need it to stop in Rotterdam. And much as I hate to say it, maybe Antwerp too.


I quite agree, as per my comment in post #27 up thread:

Turning to Amsterdam, there are nearly 60 flights each way a day on the London - Amsterdam route between BA, KLM and Squeezy (and their partners). I may be wrong but I think this is the most intensive city pair from London. There's another 9 to Rotterdam. Assuming a rather pessimistic 100 passengers on each, taking a 20% market share of that will give a very healthy load on 2 return trips by Eurostar. Albeit I think that more than 2 return trips would be needed to give an attractive frequency.
 
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anme

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Albeit I think that more than 2 return trips would be needed to give an attractive frequency.

I fully agree. Two trains per day was just an example to illustrate why a stop in Rotterdam is needed. I also think a higher frequency to needed to be atrractive.
 

AlexNL

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What is the split of Thalys usage between Amsterdam and Rotterdam?

I think that pretty much approaches zero. You need a reservation, and tickets are pretty expensive. Thalys charges € 21 for Amsterdam - Rotterdam, while normal full-fare tickets for NS cost €15.10 (+ € 2,40 for the IC Direct supplement).

NS once sold cheaper tickets on Fyra services between Amsterdam and Breda (restricted to a particular train), they were quite a lot cheaper than regular fares. They stopped doing so because not many people used them (that is, if they knew about them in the first place!).
 

edwin_m

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I fully agree. Two trains per day was just an example to illustrate why a stop in Rotterdam is needed. I also think a higher frequency to needed to be atrractive.

I'd go further and say why not extend some Brussels services to serve Amsterdam and/or Rotterdam as well. By providing a better choice of service to all three, the extra demand might allow Brussels to step up to an hourly frequency.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If we run services to Amsterdam and Rotterdam, and we want to avoid detraining at Lille, we need emigration controls and security at Amsterdam and Rotterdam. That's no different whether services run non-stop or not. Now let's say each city justifies one train per day [snip]

We could run one non-stop train per day to each city. [snip]

Or we could run two trains per day, [snip]

British people are very confused about the nature of borders in Europe. Do you believe that before Schengen, every border had an impenetrable wall along it? Could you explain how the Thalys' intermediate stops have contributed to terrorist attacks?

There's a small extra cost for keeping immigration and security open for a longer time each day, if more trains are operating.

I don't think the basis for Eurostar/Thalys security stands up to any form of logical analysis, but that doesn't mean it's ever going to improve.

One thing that would save money for operators/authorities as well as saving time for passengers would be to have one official doing both exit and entry checks at each station, instead of having to queue twice at booths ten metres apart. I don't know if the "foreign" officials doing the entry checks are natives of their own country shipped over, or resident in the country they work in, but neither sounds particularly efficient. However this would require the British authorities to place their trust in foreigners...
 

deep south

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One thing that would save money for operators/authorities as well as saving time for passengers would be to have one official doing both exit and entry checks at each station, instead of having to queue twice at booths ten metres apart. I don't know if the "foreign" officials doing the entry checks are natives of their own country shipped over, or resident in the country they work in, but neither sounds particularly efficient. However this would require the British authorities to place their trust in foreigners...

I have never understood why they do these checks on both the "outgoing" and "incoming" sides - the "outgoing" passport check was stopped a long time ago at airports; maybe the "pre-registration" of airline passengers has something to do with it.

But if it does need to be done, would any country "give up" their sovereignty and allow a "johnny foreigner" to do these checks - efficiency doesn't come into it!
 

radamfi

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I think that pretty much approaches zero. You need a reservation, and tickets are pretty expensive. Thalys charges € 21 for Amsterdam - Rotterdam, while normal full-fare tickets for NS cost €15.10 (+ € 2,40 for the IC Direct supplement).

NS once sold cheaper tickets on Fyra services between Amsterdam and Breda (restricted to a particular train), they were quite a lot cheaper than regular fares. They stopped doing so because not many people used them (that is, if they knew about them in the first place!).

Apologies for phrasing my question badly. I mean how many people use Thalys to go from Amsterdam to Paris compared to the number of people who use Thalys to go from Rotterdam to Paris?
 

jon0844

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From a security point of view, it would make more sense to pay border control to be somewhere all day - to check a number of trains than just one or two.

I've flown to small airports where passport control drive down for an hour or two and then go back, and have been delayed because they've been stuck in traffic! So I'd sooner have them at a station all day and that would mean making sure they've got something to do!
 

HowardGWR

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Well we shall see. Given the size of the market, if we discounted the border nonsenses, I am quite sure there would be at least hourly inter-city trains between all the destinations mentioned, just like, say, travelling from Brussels to Berlin or Paris is, now.

I am 71 and I am doubtful if I shall see this unrestricted travel in my lifetime, but it will happen. I shall travel to Amsterdam by the new service, just on principle and as an act of faith, Lille and all!

By the way @Anme keeps trying to tell me I am unknowledgeable about EU travel. As I lived in Holland for 15 years from 1977 and travelled extensively within Benelux and then later, Schengen, by all methods, I think I know just a little bit about it. :)
 

anme

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By the way @Anme keeps trying to tell me I am unknowledgeable about EU travel. As I lived in Holland for 15 years from 1977 and travelled extensively within Benelux and then later, Schengen, by all methods, I think I know just a little bit about it. :)

I'm sure you know a great deal about EU travel. I know something too. I have recently crossed Schengen borders quite a few times, sometimes several times in a day, and I use the existing international services quite often too. So we both have something to contribute. :)
 
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jamesontheroad

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I've flown to small airports where passport control drive down for an hour or two and then go back, and have been delayed because they've been stuck in traffic! So I'd sooner have them at a station all day and that would mean making sure they've got something to do!

The manner in which the Amtrak Adirondack crosses the US Border is about as bare bones as you can imagine.

Southbound, from Montréal towards New York, the train stops at the unstaffed station of Rouses Point, NY. A team of US Border Agents drive over from the nearest road crossing every day and process the passengers on board. They detrain anyone they're not happy with and let the train go.

Northbound, towards Montréal, the train stops at a rural level crossing just inside Québec (not even a station). Canadian border agents drive over from a nearby road crossing and do the same thing.

Work to build a sterile platform and customs facility with US preclearance and Canadian customs at Montreal station has been planned for years, but has not yet been realised.
 

paul1609

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I agree with that. However, even when Euston to Glasgow was 5 hours at best, and the WCML was being torn up every weekend, and airport security was somewhat less stringent such that you could rock up to the airport with 15 minutes before your flight, rail still had more than 10% share of that city pair air/rail market. It's now over 20% IIRC. Edinburgh is higher.

Turning to Amsterdam, there are nearly 60 flights each way a day on the London - Amsterdam route between BA, KLM and Squeezy (and their partners). I may be wrong but I think this is the most intensive city pair from London. There's another 9 to Rotterdam. Assuming a rather pessimistic 100 passengers on each, taking a 20% market share of that will give a very healthy load on 2 return trips by Eurostar. Albeit I think that more than 2 return trips would be needed to give an attractive frequency.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




Best I ever did was 31mins from terminal front door to departure time, part of a home (Herts) to central Glasgow record of 3h 25m, and the plane was half an hour late. Mark you, it also included a touchdown to taxi race at Glasgow where I breasted the tape in under 4 minutes.

Ive done in the last 10 days:
Southampton to Glasgow (Air)
Glasgow to Southampton (Air)
Euston to Edinburgh (sleeper)
Edinburgh to Gatwick (Air)
All the air journeys were 90%+ of capacity. The sleeper I was 1 of only 2 passengers in coach L this was on a friday night supposedly the busiest northbound.

The Scottish Government thinks that rail only has around 7.5% of the market with rail one way, air the other at 25%. I think the rail industries figures of 20% plus were during one of the volcanic ash fiascos.
Im with the Scottish Government on this one. I never achieve much under 5 hours on either the ECML or WCML once delays are factored in.
With on line check in and no hold baggage you can these days arrive at the airport minutes before scheduled departure. I normally allow an hour on domestic flights.
If I wasn't a rail enthusiast I wouldn't use the sleeper. its the same old 1970s tatty product albeit with a better duvet and breakfast since Serco took over.
 

Bald Rick

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Ive done in the last 10 days:
Southampton to Glasgow (Air)
Glasgow to Southampton (Air)
Euston to Edinburgh (sleeper)
Edinburgh to Gatwick (Air)
All the air journeys were 90%+ of capacity. The sleeper I was 1 of only 2 passengers in coach L this was on a friday night supposedly the busiest northbound.

The Scottish Government thinks that rail only has around 7.5% of the market with rail one way, air the other at 25%. I think the rail industries figures of 20% plus were during one of the volcanic ash fiascos.
Im with the Scottish Government on this one. I never achieve much under 5 hours on either the ECML or WCML once delays are factored in.
With on line check in and no hold baggage you can these days arrive at the airport minutes before scheduled departure. I normally allow an hour on domestic flights.
If I wasn't a rail enthusiast I wouldn't use the sleeper. its the same old 1970s tatty product albeit with a better duvet and breakfast since Serco took over.

Without going into too much detail, I gave had access to official TOC and CAA data, and the rail share of the air+rail market (London to Scotland) was definitely just over 10% a decade ago and is much more now. I've personally done ticket surveys and passenger counts on London-Scotland trains over several months, and the average was around 50-70 London - Scotland passengers per train. (This was a while ago, and the numbers have increased since). Factor in the number of London-Scots trains per day, and compare to the number of London-Scotland flights and the capacity of an A320 at 90% load factor, and you have your market shares.
 

edwin_m

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Without going into too much detail, I gave had access to official TOC and CAA data, and the rail share of the air+rail market (London to Scotland) was definitely just over 10% a decade ago and is much more now.

Might the other, different, figures be referring to the rail+air+road market?
 

ItchyRsole

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Good news.

I'd personally favour the Eurostar over flying. Turn up & go. Air travel is so long winded.

Plus a lot more comfortable on the train from my own personal experiences.
 
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