Amtrak & CSX collision, South Carolina

[Dave P]

Indeed - very sad. We had plans to do a US coast-to-coast by rail, these are indefinitely on hold.

I would urge you, or anybody else considering a train trip in the USA, to look at the facts before making a hasty decision to deny themselves an amazing holiday. Despite this latest incident, statistically trains are still the safest way to travel, even in the US. Much safer than driving. Having said that, I can see where you are coming from, as I had similar concerns when considering a US rail holiday back in 2005, but I came to the conclusion that I was probably in greater danger when driving in the UK than taking an Amtrak train. So I did go and had a Coast-to-Coast trip (east to west and back, by different routes). I am so glad I overcame my own doubts, as it was a fantastic experience - definitely the trip of a lifetime.

 

[nlogax]

I would urge you, or anybody else considering a train trip in the USA, to look at the facts before making a hasty decision to deny themselves an amazing holiday. Despite this latest incident, statistically trains are still the safest way to travel, even in the US.

I happily second this advice. Having done two 2500-mile Amtrak trips in the space of twelve months I can also confirm it's the easiest way to see lesser-visited parts of the country. Driving across the US is always fun, but it can be tiring and relentless if you're doing a coast to coast haul. Look out of the windows and let someone else do the driving, especially if they're doing it up front from a pair of P42s.

 

[ac6000cw]

It would appear from reports that the CTC was out of service for "work". Possibly the fact this happened early on a Sunday morning gives may indicate a weekend work project of some sort. It's reported that operations had fallen back to radio track warrants (a radio version of paper train orders) or similar, done by radio messages between the crew and the dispatcher.

The usual discussion in the media about Positive Train Control (TPWS equivalent). Possibly if all the signals were out and a fallback system in use, any PTC would not be in operation either.

I wonder how long the tied down freight had been in the siding.

I have seen comments on the US Trains magazine forum that the 'work' was (ironically) to upgrade the signal system to support PTC installation...

 

[ac6000cw]

I happily second this advice. Having done two 2500-mile Amtrak trips in the space of twelve months I can also confirm it's the easiest way to see lesser-visited parts of the country. Driving across the US is always fun, but it can be tiring and relentless if you're doing a coast to coast haul. Look out of the windows and let someone else do the driving, especially if they're doing it up front from a pair of P42s.

I'd third that - having done thousands of miles on Amtrak and driven probably many more, I'd definitely choose the train over driving through hundreds of miles of endless cornfields and prairie...

I came to the conclusion that I was probably in greater danger when driving in the UK than taking an Amtrak train.

...or when crossing the road on the way to the railway station.

 

[edwin_m]

The link below suggests that the risk of travelling by train in the USA is significantly less than travelling the same distance by car but significantly more than by air (and don't even think about biking it...).

https://www.statista.com/statistics/722573/passenger-fatalities-per-billion-passenger-miles-in-us/

 

[ac6000cw]

There are some international rail safety comparison charts (from Wikipedia, first chart based on an OECD report, second one on an EU report) here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans...ompared_to_other_nations_by_traveled_distance - shown below:

 

[edwin_m]

There are some international rail safety comparison charts (from Wikipedia, based on OECD data) here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans...ompared_to_other_nations_by_traveled_distance - shown below:

Those came up on the search I did when writing the post above, but I don't think they are very helpful because it's unclear whether "train-km" is all trains or just passenger trains. If it's all trains then the big difference in the proportion of freight trains in the different countries makes the figures largely meaningless.

 

[westcoaster]

Looking at the pictures, I’m not sure the Amtrak was doing 60, I’d say much less. Yes impact damage is bad but the rest of both trains except one Amtrak car look relatively ok.
Could the driver have thrown the brake in as soon as it diverted into the siding. This slowing it down before impact.

 

[43096]

Looking at the pictures, I’m not sure the Amtrak was doing 60, I’d say much less. Yes impact damage is bad but the rest of both trains except one Amtrak car look relatively ok.
Could the driver have thrown the brake in as soon as it diverted into the siding. This slowing it down before impact.

Not sure you can say that - no doubt the NTSB report will confirm the details once they have recovered the data recorders on the P42.

Give the level of damage to the Amtrak loco - basically the front third of the loco is completely destroyed - the impact speed is clearly substantial.

 

[ac6000cw]

There are some international rail safety comparison charts (from Wikipedia, based on OECD data) here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans...ompared_to_other_nations_by_traveled_distance - shown below:

Those came up on the search I did when writing the post above, but I don't think they are very helpful because it's unclear whether "train-km" is all trains or just passenger trains. If it's all trains then the big difference in the proportion of freight trains in the different countries makes the figures largely meaningless.

According to the Wikipedia sources info, the second chart is derived from the one on page 24 of this EU report - http://www.era.europa.eu/Document-Register/Documents/Railway Safety Performance 2016 final E.pdf - so the blue 'passenger' bars should be per million passenger train km, and the red 'all persons' bars should be per million total (all types) train km. (Note that in the EU document the colours are swapped). So the US passenger fatality rate is about three times the EU average, for the period from 2010-2014.

BTW - I can't get any useful info for free via your statista.com link - it wants me to register and pay a subscription fee to see anything worthwhile?

 

[Groningen]

From the wrongly set switch to the crash was about 9 seconds.

 

[edwin_m]

BTW - I can't get any useful info for free via your statista.com link - it wants me to register and pay a subscription fee to see anything worthwhile?

That's sneaky. Looks like if you stumble upon it by search engine you can view it (I searched for something like "us train fatalities by passenger mile") but if you follow a link it wants $49. Memo to self not to link this one again!

 

[ac6000cw]

That's sneaky. Looks like if you stumble upon it by search engine you can view it (I searched for something like "us train fatalities by passenger mile") but if you follow a link it wants $49. Memo to self not to link this one again!

This is an interesting overview of the relative safety for transport modes in the US - https://journalistsresource.org/stu...nited-states-transportation-across-modes-time

From the wrongly set switch to the crash was about 9 seconds.

Assuming this is the crash site - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/33°54'32.8"N+81°04'01.5"W/@33.9095511,-81.0663278,233m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d33.909099!4d-81.067072 - it looks like it's about 250 - 300 metres from the switch to the impact point (as measured with Google Maps 'Measure Distance' tool), so that would make it 50 - 60 mph.

 

[Groningen]

Some newspapers say that the signals were out and that everything was done (commands) by radio. At the most it was 400 meters from the switch to the standing still carfreight. There was no one on that freight so lights may have been out. Meanwhile there was another incident today with Amtrak 2150 (Acela) where a train completely separated.

 

[WatcherZero]

According to black box was 57mph 7 seconds before collision when brakes first applied, 54mph 3 seconds before and 50mph at impact, linespeed was 60mph.

 

[ac6000cw]

Some newspapers say that the signals were out and that everything was done (commands) by radio.

Yes, that's what Taunton said yesterday in this post - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/amtrak-csx-collision-south-carolina.160282/#post-3320812

As I understand it, the line was being operated under temporary 'Track Warrant Control' i.e. carefully worded verbal movement authorities conveyed over the radio (which have to be repeated back to the dispatcher as confirmation) - the same system as is used on unsignalled ('dark') lines.

 

[Taunton]

There are several reliable accounts that there was work in progress on the signals, which were switched out. Among other things this is why the train was operating at 59mph (Federal speed limit for Dark Territory) as opposed to 79mph (limit for signalling but no cab signals). More than one states the work was, ironically, to install an upgrade to Positive Train Control. I wonder how that works with manually switched sidings.

The Canadian official report (a close comparison, and probably a comparable proportion of Dark Territory, but obviously a fraction of USA operations) into the 1999 Thamesville, Ontario accident, yet again a passenger train diverted by an incorrectly-left switch into standing freight cars, has a table of the preceding 8 years of how often this happens in Canada. Amazingly it was 79 times, 10 of which involved passenger trains, in those preceding 8 years, almost all in Dark Territory. Table 3 on page 19 here

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/1999/r99h0007/r99h0007.pdf

It does of course give rise to the standard Americanism for neglect of your responsibilities, being "asleep at the switch". Didn't such non-interlocked operation get stamped out in Britain by the 1889 Regulation of Railways Act?

 

[edwin_m]

Someone upthread posted that with CTC the manual switch would be detected so presumably the relevant signal would remain at red and PTC (when fitted) would enforce a stop. The equivalent UK provision would be a ground frame, which has the extra protection that the switch can only be moved when released electrically by the signaller, and this would be interlocked with the signalling.

With the signalling out of commission that protection would be removed, effectively being equivalent to dark territory.

Can't be much genuine dark territory left these days, at least on Class I or passenger routes.

 

[ac6000cw]

Can't be much genuine dark territory left these days, at least on Class I or passenger routes.

Not on the busy routes, no, but I think there is more than you might think on secondary routes of the Class 1's. As an example, when BNSF re-opened the ex-NP line over Stampede Pass in 1996 (as a relief valve to the ex-GN Stevens Pass route) it was as a partly 'dark' route as far as I remember. Another example is a lot of the CN ex-BC Rail routes in western Canada which are still 'dark' (and carry a small amount of passenger traffic like the Rocky Mountaineer). There is an old Trainorders.com forum thread about some other 'dark' routes here - https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,229696

CTC and ABS (Automatic Block Signalling) installation has always been more about increasing capacity than safety, by avoiding trains having to stop to operate switches at passing loops etc. and to allow faster running speeds. Some formally CTC/ABS equipped track has had the signalling system removed due to changing traffic patterns or line sales to regional/shortline railroads and the equipment becoming life-expired - it's not worth trying to maintain an old, unreliable system for a few low speed freight trains a day. (Railroads have to apply to the FRA for permission to do this downgrade though).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Funding isn't the only factor behind the recent spate of catastrophes on US Railroads. Deregulation (in the US sense, meaning a slackening of rules and oversight) is also significant.

Perhaps surprisingly, the railroad lobby (meaning owners rather than strictly railroadmen) is still powerful in Washington DC. Not quite up there with the NRA and Lockheed Martin, but in DC a political donation will grease the wheels of government in your favour quite efficiently. Such donations (effectively legalised bribery) have probably helped to delay implementation of things like PTC.

Compared to across the pond, the VTEC fiasco is small-fry, as crises go. Naturally, my thoughts are with all those affected.

 

[DelW]

CSX's current position is worth comment.

Last year it came under the influence of an 'activist investor' who orchestrated the removal of much of the previous senior management, and installed E Hunter Harrison as CEO. Harrison's reputation, at Canadian National and Canadian Pacific, was of his ability to increase profits by cutting expenditure, and at CSX he rapidly closed yards and fired on the ground staff. Allegedly, punctuality and reliability plummeted as yards became clogged with freight cars and crews ran out of hours on the road, causing complaints from customers. While the railway was still trying to recover from this, Harrison died in December 2017.

Whether or not as a result of the staff reductions, CSX suffered a period of very poor safety as well, with a number of serious derailments, several involving hazardous materials and/or fires of derailed wagons. One, at Hyndman in August, led to the evacuation of the entire town when sulphur and propane gas leaking from derailed tank cars caught fire.

Whether or not any of the above has any bearing on the Dixiana collision remains to be seen of course.

 

[MarkyT]

CSX's current position is worth comment.

Last year it came under the influence of an 'activist investor' who orchestrated the removal of much of the previous senior management, and installed E Hunter Harrison as CEO. Harrison's reputation, at Canadian National and Canadian Pacific, was of his ability to increase profits by cutting expenditure, and at CSX he rapidly closed yards and fired on the ground staff. Allegedly, punctuality and reliability plummeted as yards became clogged with freight cars and crews ran out of hours on the road, causing complaints from customers. While the railway was still trying to recover from this, Harrison died in December 2017.

It seems CSX screwed over their dispatching staff last year, forcing them to all relocate from numerous locations across the country to a new major centre at RR headquarters in Jacksonville, then changing their plans at short notice and leaving staff unable to make plans for their children's education or afford to run two homes. With inadequate out of pocket expenses being paid, some are allegedly now homeless and living in cars. I wonder if some have also left for other jobs under such impossible conditions, perhaps leaving them short-staffed as well. This is not the kind of employment environment conducive to safe operations.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jackson...omeless-as-csx-changes-plans-dispatchers.html

CSX, in its efficiency campaign under Harrison, was also planning to close certain routes and further simplifiy others, including singling substantial parts of their busy New York - Chicago Water Level Route, used by a number of Amtrak passenger services daily.
http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2017/08/13/single-track-the-water-level-route.aspx

The RR has been hemorrhaging traffic in recent years, and the late CEOs 'precision railroading' programme aimed to run fewer, but longer and more profitable trains with fewer employees.

 

[ac6000cw]

My impression of CSX is that it hasn't been a happy or very well performing ship for some years - upper management changes, some run-ins with the FRA a while back over track maintenance issues, unhappy customers etc. - there seem to be some deep-seated, almost cultural problems inside the organisation. Admittedly both the major eastern railroads have been struggling with the major downturn in coal traffic in recent years, but NS seems to be coping better than CSX.

 

[Taunton]

It seems CSX screwed over their dispatching staff last year, forcing them to all relocate from numerous locations across the country to a new major centre at RR headquarters in Jacksonville

BNSF did exactly the same, opening a headquarters in Fort Worth, Texas when BN was headquartered in Minneapolis/St Paul and Santa Fe in Chicago.

 

[ac6000cw]

....and UP moved nearly all dispatching to Omaha (which was the 'Star Wars' place that seemed to so wow certain Railtrack people who should have known better...). NS is the only one of the 'big four' that seems to have resisted the urge to centralise dispatching.

CSX has flip-flopped more than once between moving everyone to Jacksonville - the dispatching centre there was opened 1989/1990 - and then sending some of them back to regional centres (in 2007?), now centralisation (or not?) is the new (old) game. Mind you, the idea of basing a centralised facility in 'hurricane alley' does make you wonder. You could say this is sort of indecision is symptomatic of CSX's problems.

 

[philabos]

NS is moving their dispatchers to Atlanta.

 

[WatcherZero]

On topic of safety, the first 240 mile section of the Brightline ‘high speed’ service in Florida has been open less than 30 days, it offers Max 79mph speeds (3rd stage will have a linespeed of 125mph just reaching the US definition of 125-150 sustained minimum) with 10 trains per day each way (less at weekends). In the last month theyve hit pedestrians 4 times twice fatally. Two attemped to bypass barriers at level crossings and two appear to have been clipped by trains while walking along the Pedestrian footpath directly adjacent to the track which has no physical or detterant separation from the ballast (path literally is edged by the track ballast piled around a foot higher).

 

[MarkyT]

On topic of safety, the first 240 mile section of the Brightline ‘high speed’ service in Florida has been open less than 30 days, it offers Max 79mph speeds (3rd stage will have a linespeed of 125mph just reaching the US definition of 125-150 sustained minimum) with 10 trains per day each way (less at weekends). In the last month theyve hit pedestrians 4 times twice fatally. Two attemped to bypass barriers at level crossings and two appear to have been clipped by trains while walking along the Pedestrian footpath directly adjacent to the track which has no physical or detterant separation from the ballast (path literally is edged by the track ballast piled around a foot higher).

I've been following Brightline closely. The first stage is urban for its entire length with numerous crossings. It does seem very odd from a UK perspective to have near 80mph expresses barreling through a city completely unfenced and across AHB type crossings with short 30 second warnings. In UK AHBs would be considered completely unsuitable for many of the specific applications because of the urban setting and because there are road junctions nearby that could plausibly cause blocking back of road traffic across the railway. Part of the attraction of the scheme for the host railroad is that the route is being doubled, which provides significant extra capacity for Florida East Coast's lucrative freight traffic, some of which is now permitted to run at up to 60 mph through the area in question.

 

[WatcherZero]

Apparently struck two people while testing before service began as well, though the fire service are suggesting this latest one is probably a suicide.

 

[theageofthetra]

Reading all the above I find it both staggering and depressing that the country whose entire creation, expansion and modern history was created by railways should treat its 'favorite son' so poorly.