An alternative route between Plymouth and Exeter, via Okehampton, should be built

[yorksrob]

A route designed for the real transport requirements of Okehampton and Tavistock would be almost useless for diversionary purposes, except as a feel good measure.

I'm not even sure it would have the Okehampton-Tavistock section in it.

That's nonsense. They both need a station linking them to the rail network. By is nature it would be an alternative for London - SW.

What alternative would you suggest ?

 

[HSTEd]

That's nonsense. They both need a station linking them to the rail network. By is nature it would be an alternative for London - SW.

What alternative would you suggest ?

Okehampton is already connected to the rail network, Tavistock would be connected either by reopening the line via Bere Alston or new construction from Gunnislake - be that rail or an alternative transport system.

I'm not sure there is any case at all for building a line for 20km from Tavistock to Maldon Quarry (and probably rebuilding the line from there to Okehampton) through very low population density rural terrain.

20km of line and several km of reconstruction is quite a bit.

It's almost enough to get you Bodmin and Padstow! Which is likely to generate rather more incremental traffic than allowing people to go from Tavistock to Exeter or Okehampton to Plymouth.

EDIT:

Or you could divert the Atlantic line from Par to Bodmin Parkway, and still have nearly half of it left over!

 

[yorksrob]

Okehampton is already connected to the rail network, Tavistock would be connected either by reopening the line via Bere Alston or new construction from Gunnislake - be that rail or an alternative transport system.

I'm not sure there is any case at all for building a line for 20km from Tavistock to Maldon Quarry (and probably rebuilding the line from there to Okehampton) through very low population density rural terrain.

20km of line and several km of reconstruction is quite a bit.

It's almost enough to get you Bodmin and Padstow! Which is likely to generate rather more incremental traffic than allowing people to go from Tavistock to Exeter or Okehampton to Plymouth.

So essentially you agree with the investment in linking Okehampton and Tavistock to the network (Okehampton may have been physically linked to the network, but for passengers it wasnt) and having these as branch lines from the single route, but you see no merit in the whole route.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

So essentially you agree with the investment in linking Okehampton and Tavistock to the network (Okehampton may have been physically linked to the network, but for passengers it wasnt) and having these as branch lines from the single route, but you see no merit in the whole route.

That is the opinion of many, yes.

It's a serious amount of money for a very limited area in terms of populator. By all means keeping Okehampton open and then rebuild to Tavistock from Bere Alston, but the connecting bit shouldn't happen. Not at the moment anyway.

 

[HSTEd]

So essentially you agree with the investment in linking Okehampton and Tavistock to the network (Okehampton may have been physically linked to the network, but for passengers it wasnt) and having these as branch lines from the single route, but you see no merit in the whole route.

Essentially yes.

It's a lot of money and I can think of multiple more deserving schemes in Devon and Cornwall alone - we must be careful not to be hindbound by thinking that the railways must operate in ways similar to how they do now, or historically.

 

[yorksrob]

That is the opinion of many, yes.

It's a serious amount of money for a very limited area in terms of populator. By all means keeping Okehampton open and then rebuild to Tavistock from Bere Alston, but the connecting bit shouldn't happen. Not at the moment anyway.

That's the wrong idea though.
If you're going to the expense of putting the lines to Okehampton and Tavistock, you need to finish the job, which will enable tourist traffic to West Devon, travel between Okehampton and Tavistock, the diversionary route and an extra route to London, rather than spending proportionally more on two branch lines.

Essentially yes.

It's a lot of money and I can think of multiple more deserving schemes in Devon and Cornwall alone - we must be careful not to be hindbound by thinking that the railways must operate in ways similar to how they do now, or historically.

I've yet to see of these more deserving schemes in Devon and Cornwall.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Essentially yes.

It's a lot of money and I can think of multiple more deserving schemes in Devon and Cornwall alone - we must be careful not to be hindbound by thinking that the railways must operate in ways similar to how they do now, or historically.

Out of interest, what are these more deserving schemes that you can think off? I have a few in mind also but would be interested to hear yours.

That's the wrong idea though.
If you're going to the expense of putting the lines to Okehampton and Tavistock, you need to finish the job, which will enable tourist traffic to West Devon, travel between Okehampton and Tavistock, the diversionary route and an extra route to London, rather than spending proportionally more on two branch lines.

Spending over £1 isn't "finishing the job" it should be the whole job and nothing less but it isn't, it's a part of it.

 

[HSTEd]

Out of interest, what are these more deserving schemes that you can think off? I have a few in mind also but would be interested to hear yours.

Various upgrade/reconstructions - Maritime Line-ifying the Atlantic Line or trying to get a passing loop on the St Ives line for 4tph.

Or rerouting the Atlantic line to a more sensible alignment, either to St Austell or to Bodmin Parkway (for better access from the rest of England)

A railway to Padstow, a railway to Launceston, a railway to Ilfracome and a railway to Helston.
And a Dawlish cutoff.

And general upgrades to the Cornish Main Line

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Various upgrade/reconstructions - Maritime Line-ifying the Atlantic Line or trying to get a passing loop on the St Ives line for 4tph.

Or rerouting the Atlantic line to a more sensible alignment, either to St Austell or to Bodmin Parkway (for better access from the rest of England)

A railway to Padstow, a railway to Launceston, a railway to Ilfracome and a railway to Helston.
And a Dawlish cutoff.

Interesting.

I always thought that Barnstaple to Bideford would be worth while investment as it would be cheap ish (the track bed is intact pretty much and unobstructed for almost all the way.

As diversionay routes go, the WoE line could do with some more double track sections to increase capacity as right now it's very limited.

By Dawlish cuttoff, I assume you mean a inland route behind Dawlish Teingmouth etc?

 

[irish_rail]

So, the combined population of Plymouth plus Cornwall is not far off a million. That is comparable to somewhere like Merseyside (ok its a little less than Merseyside) but can you imagine Liverpool only being served by one route? No, it is served by several.
I'm not sure why the south west should be so different , particularly as buses and aviation down here are poor / none existent, and more and more people are choosing not to have a car.

 

[zwk500]

So, the combined population of Plymouth plus Cornwall is not far off a million. That is comparable to somewhere like Merseyside (ok its a little less than Merseyside) but can you imagine Liverpool only being served by one route? No, it is served by several.
I'm not sure why the south west should be so different , particularly as buses and aviation down here are poor / none existent, and more and more people are choosing not to have a car.

Because Liverpool is one of the biggest ports in the country? Freight is much harder to direct onto a replacement bus service. Also because the urban areas around Liverpool are very differently situated to the South West because of history and geography so Liverpool sustains multiple links to Manchester because the towns in between the 2 major cities have strong flows in both directions. Given Plymouth's role as a key base for the Royal Navy, if there was a key strategic need for a 2nd rail link, don't you think the government would have retained/reinstated one by now? The fact that they haven't suggests that it's really not that important.

As an aside, a question I've asked on previous threads about reopenings is relevant here: Would you suggest building the route if no railway had ever existed there before? The answer is that you wouldn't think twice about going via Okehampton. A 2nd link from Exeter to Plymouth would go via Buckfastleigh.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

As an aside, a question I've asked on previous threads about reopenings is relevant here: Would you suggest building the route if no railway had ever existed there before? The answer is that you wouldn't think twice about going via Okehampton. A 2nd link from Exeter to Plymouth would go via Buckfastleigh.

I don't think anyone would suggest that route if the railway had not had been there before.

As for the second link running via Buckfastleigh, I don't think so. Heathfield to Alphington in Exeter would be more likely in my opinion.

 

[johnnychips]

Given that the decision has been made to strengthen the sea wall at Dawlish, and the costs of improving or replacing Meldon viaduct seem excessive, I wonder why the proposed extension from Bere Alston to just Tavistock seems to have stalled? There is a very frequent bus service between Plymouth and Tavistock, and I have heard that traffic congestion in Plymouth can be quite bad in the peak hours. Is it now impossible/expensive to reach near the centre of Tavistock as the trackbed has been built on? I visited the area in May as a tourist and am genuinely interested.

 

[Glenn1969]

Given that the decision has been made to strengthen the sea wall at Dawlish, and the costs of improving or replacing Meldon viaduct seem excessive, I wonder why the proposed extension from Bere Alston to just Tavistock seems to have stalled? There is a very frequent bus service between Plymouth and Tavistock, and I have heard that traffic congestion in Plymouth can be quite bad in the peak hours. Is it now impossible/expensive to reach near the centre of Tavistock as the trackbed has been built on? I visited the area in May as a tourist and am genuinely interested.

Because no one wants to pay for it I believe?

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Given that the decision has been made to strengthen the sea wall at Dawlish, and the costs of improving or replacing Meldon viaduct seem excessive, I wonder why the proposed extension from Bere Alston to just Tavistock seems to have stalled? There is a very frequent bus service between Plymouth and Tavistock, and I have heard that traffic congestion in Plymouth can be quite bad in the peak hours. Is it now impossible/expensive to reach near the centre of Tavistock as the trackbed has been built on? I visited the area in May as a tourist and am genuinely interested.

Meldon Viadcut is a huge job and is the number one reason why the route will not be reopened.

 

[yorksrob]

Because Liverpool is one of the biggest ports in the country? Freight is much harder to direct onto a replacement bus service. Also because the urban areas around Liverpool are very differently situated to the South West because of history and geography so Liverpool sustains multiple links to Manchester because the towns in between the 2 major cities have strong flows in both directions. Given Plymouth's role as a key base for the Royal Navy, if there was a key strategic need for a 2nd rail link, don't you think the government would have retained/reinstated one by now? The fact that they haven't suggests that it's really not that important.

As an aside, a question I've asked on previous threads about reopenings is relevant here: Would you suggest building the route if no railway had ever existed there before? The answer is that you wouldn't think twice about going via Okehampton. A 2nd link from Exeter to Plymouth would go via Buckfastleigh.

The government in the past was very well aware of the strategic importance of Plymouth. Liverpool is a good example. It has historically had more routes than one, but it's current service is inadequate.

As for if I'd build the route if one hadn't existed previously, yes of course I would. T services a different part of Devon, and other than the GW route, is the only one that avoids Haddon Hilll

 

[D6130]

The slow speeds to which you refer we undoubtedly the speed of a 1960's route that was being run down for closure,

IIRC, prior to the 1963 Western Region takeover, the permitted line speed between Cowley Bridge Junction and Okehampton was 85 mph....considerably faster than virtually all of the ex-GWR route between Starcross and Plymouth.

 

[Irascible]

Two mediocre routes with - let's be fair & say 1.5x the upkeep given parts of both ends to Dartmoor will be there anyway - or one better one. I know where my vote is going if there's money to be spent ( haha. This is Devon ). Remember the quote from the parent thread that it's no slower on the coach to Tiv PW? ( and given the roads after the M5 runs out, that's a fair achievement ); why is there even a railway then? it's not for freight, that's for sure.

 

[yorksrob]

IIRC, prior to the 1963 Western Region takeover, the permitted line speed between Cowley Bridge Junction and Okehampton was 85 mph....considerably faster than virtually all of the ex-GWR route between Starcross and Plymouth.

Indeed, and i bet if that were translated to modern maintenance standards, it would be even faster !

 

[Charlie Smythe]

IIRC, prior to the 1963 Western Region takeover, the permitted line speed between Cowley Bridge Junction and Okehampton was 85 mph....considerably faster than virtually all of the ex-GWR route between Starcross and Plymouth.

Routes being run down for closure, like the SR route to Plymouth has to be one of the biggest mistakes in railway history. If the SR had survived it would have been a vital competitor to the GWR route via NA, same with the WoE route, that was detroyed by the WR after takover as well.

 

[yorksrob]

Two mediocre routes with - let's be fair & say 1.5x the upkeep given parts of both ends to Dartmoor will be there anyway - or one better one. I know where my vote is going if there's money to be spent ( haha. This is Devon ). Remember the quote from the parent thread that it's no slower on the coach to Tiv PW? ( and given the roads after the M5 runs out, that's a fair achievement ); why is there even a railway then? it's not for freight, that's for sure.

How fast does a lorry go in a traffic jam ?

 

[johnnychips]

Meldon Viadcut is a huge job and is the number one reason why the route will not be reopened.

Sorry, I think you may have misunderstood me. I wondered why the route from Tavistock to Bere Alston might not be re-opened, not the bit from Tavistock to Okehampton.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Sorry, I think you may have misunderstood me. I wondered why the route from Tavistock to Bere Alston might not be re-opened, not the bit from Tavistock to Okehampton.

Yeah, I think I did. At one point the Bere Alston to Tavistock bit was looking a tad bit promising as in it might happen, but over the course of few years the price doubled to over £100m and nothing official has been said since.

 

[Starmill]

Okehampton is already well on the way to having an all-week service to Exeter running, which is quite impressive under the current circumstances. Tavistock is a long way behind and will definitely struggle under the circumstances. A route between Okehampton and Tavistock does not serve any particular purpose and is not at all in prospect.

 

[johnnychips]

Yeah, I think I did. At one point the Bere Alston to Tavistock bit was looking a tad bit promising as in it might happen, but over the course of few years the price doubled to over £100m and nothing official has been said since.

Thank you @CES . As a local, I wonder what you think about the Exeter to Okehampton re-opening? I gather the station at Okehampton is not central, and St David’s isn’t, but if the traffic is bad?

 

[Irascible]

Thank you @CES . As a local, I wonder what you think about the Exeter to Okehampton re-opening? I gather the station at Okehampton is not central, and St David’s isn’t, but if the traffic is bad?

St Davids is central enough - it's not Central station itself ( and if there's ever money to resignal the area - given the state of the signalling one might hope that can be found - rebuilding Central to handle local terminators would be a great thing ), but it's only really down the hill rather than the other cide of the city.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Thank you @CES . As a local, I wonder what you think about the Exeter to Okehampton re-opening? I gather the station at Okehampton is not central, and St David’s isn’t, but if the traffic is bad?

The Exeter to Okehampton re-opening is of course a good thing, but it's not too competitive compared to the car in terms of timings, from what I have seen and driven myself of course. To get from Okehampton station to Exeter St David's you will suffer with traffic around the Exwick (I don't know how strong your local knowledge is so I will keep it basic) which is a very large estate which gets very busy and is directly between Okehampton and Exeter St David's via car.

Overall, the re-opening is a excellent bit of progress and it will do well, I am sure of it. It will help to ease traffic, but how much differance it will make I don't know. Anything else you wish to know locally?

St Davids is central enough - it's not Central station itself ( and if there's ever money to resignal the area - given the state of the signalling one might hope that can be found - rebuilding Central to handle local terminators would be a great thing ), but it's only really down the hill rather than the other cide of the city.

Exeter St David's, Exeter Central and the whole Exeter area will be resignalled, it has to be because the 80's signalling is rapidly approaching the end of it's serviceable life.

Although it's a little of topic, Exeter Central needs a central reversing siding, like Bournemouth has. It would allow trains to arrive from both platforms from the Exeter St David's and run forward into the sidings and then reverse in there and then run back out into either platform to then work the return working. It's expensive, needs a bit of fiddly pointwork and also negates the need to run ECS to Exmouth Junction, which is busy enough as is without ECS movements.

 

[tbtc]

Ah, the route into Plymouth is blocked for a handful of days - quick, dust down the plans for that billion pound mega project that people periodically suggest as some kind of "solution" to disruptions between Exeter and Plymouth, because they know deep down that the idea of an Okehampton - Tavistock line can only gain any kind of traction if you try to tie it to "solving the Dawlish problem" - there's virtually no demand to get from Okehampton to Plymouth or from Tavistock to Exeter, so the Solutions In Need Of A Problem crowd have to conflate the two because they know how weak their case would be without the "might be useful a couple of weekends a year" aspect

The problem that people have is that they over-egg these projects, so that they become far too expensive/ slow/ cumbersome to deliver, making them much easier for Government to reject - e.g. I could see the attraction in a simple single track branchline from Harrogate to Ripon for an extension of ex-Leeds services. But, no, this project gets rolled into "a way of running regular Leeds - Newcastle trains that avoid York", a fast two track railway to Northallerton... far too bulky a project so of course it never gets off the ground

Funny how the schemes that enthusiasts like to rave about as unqualified successes are generally "stubs"/ "branch lines" like Alloa/ Ebbw Vale/ Tweedbank, whereas the more "integrated" schemes (like the Robin Hood line to Worksop, the Airdrie to Bathgate line) seem to have struggled to deliver the same kind of proportionate benefits

I'm imagining this thread in an alternative reality where the Okehampton route was open, and all of the criticism that would be happening because services were still bustituted from Tiverton to Plymouth because the drivers didn't have route knowledge / there wasn't capacity for the reversals / too many single line sections / too slow journey time etc. just like the complaints when the WCML isn't diverted via the Settle & Carlisle.

Agreed.

There are lots of examples of lines where there is a "broadly" parallel route but it doesn't actually get used for diversions - e.g. there's a regular argument that we should re-open Lewes - Uckfield to allow Brighton to retain a train service when the line through Haywards Heath is closed (for engineering etc) - sounds reasonable given the size of Brighton, leaving it without any rail access to London... funnily enough the people arguing for a "BML2" never seem to point out that there's a double track line via Horsham but Southern/ Thameslink generally don't bother to run diversions that way

But we are meant to believe that GWR/ XC would keep up route knowledge on the route through Dartmoor to ensure that drivers/ guards could divert that way whenever a lorry drives into a bridge

Same with the S&C, which could be used by Avanti and/or LNER for diversions but aren't (as you say)

I guess you've got to believe in some kind of magical thinking to keep suggesting re-opening all of these lines but if I was writing the billion pound cheques at the Treasury, I might ask why the capacity for "diversionary resilience" was so important when diversions aren't used on other lines - it's much easier to put people on coaches instead

So essentially you agree with the investment in linking Okehampton and Tavistock to the network (Okehampton may have been physically linked to the network, but for passengers it wasnt) and having these as branch lines from the single route, but you see no merit in the whole route.

Tavistock looks to have a reasonable case (it's in the Plymouth commuter area, there's fairly frequent commercial bus service into Plymouth)

Okehampton looks to have a fairly weak case (it's only had a Sunday service, despite all of the other improvements to FGW/ GWR services, there doesn't seem to have been much of a hurry to expand the Sunday-only service), the bus service isn't as frequent - roughly every hour - and many buses continue on elsewhere (Bude etc), so it's nothing like as good as the Tavistock - Plymouth market

Tavistock to Okehampton though? Complete waste of time - no commercial bus services last time I checked - it's empty countryside - why bother?

If you can get 95% of the benefits for 60% of the cost then you've got to accept that the marginal cost of filling in the Tavistock - Okehampton section is pretty unattractive. I know that completists will want everything done, all the bells and whistles, but you can deliver most of the benefits for a small amount of the total costs

If you're going to the expense of putting the lines to Okehampton and Tavistock, you need to finish the job, which will enable tourist traffic to West Devon, travel between Okehampton and Tavistock, the diversionary route and an extra route to London, rather than spending proportionally more on two branch lines

Why though?

Do you ever go to a clothes shop and just buy a pair of trousers? Or do you insist that buying a suit jacket and waistcoat too would deliver more benefits and therefore there's no point in only buying trousers on their own? Have you ever bought a sandwich rather than an entire platter? Settled for a pint of ale instead of the entire keg?

The government in the past was very well aware of the strategic importance of Plymouth. Liverpool is a good example

Liverpool is a terrible example though - it has a much denser population than Plymouth, it's close to some other big places, of course it has more rail lines

But then some coastal places do rely on just one line - e.g. there's only one way from Gilberdyke into Hull, but nobody complains about that because the's no campaign to re-open a "parallel" route, so nobody is worrying about diversionary resilience!

 

[HSTEd]

I hesitate to bring it up because people universally pour scorn on it as a "gadgetbahn".

But Tavistock does seem a not terrible location for an aerial ropeway as a public transport solution.

It's only 5.6km, with a route staying clear of residential buildings only requiring one direction change.
At 8.5m/s a 3S cableway could do the journey in ~11 minutes. A lower capacity traditional "aerial tram" at 12m/s would do it in ~8 minutes - I doubt capacity is a big issue here.

It would also be much cheaper than reopening the 8km railway from Bere Alston - and with Tavistock out of the picture you might be able to justify a rationalisation and relocation of the station at Bere Alston to eliminate the reversal.
You'd need staff to operate it but you wouldn't have to run a second train to serve Tavistock and Gunnislake simultaneously.

Those two things combined might manage to make the journey more competitive with the road offering.

 

[Starmill]

I hesitate to bring it up because people universally pour scorn on it as a "gadgetbahn".

But Tavistock does seem a not terrible location for an aerial ropeway as a public transport solution.

It's only 5.6km, with a route staying clear of residential buildings only requiring one direction change.
At 8.5m/s a 3S cableway could do the journey in ~11 minutes. A lower capacity traditional "aerial tram" at 12m/s would do it in ~8 minutes - I doubt capacity is a big issue here.

It would also be much cheaper than reopening the 8km railway from Bere Alston - and with Tavistock out of the picture you might be able to justify a rationalisation and relocation of the station at Bere Alston to eliminate the reversal.
You'd need staff to operate it but you wouldn't have to run a second train to serve Tavistock and Gunnislake simultaneously.

Those two things combined might manage to make the journey more competitive with the road offering.

How on earth would you connect an aerial cableway with an infrequent train in a way that might make people actually want to use it?