An alternative route between Plymouth and Exeter, via Okehampton, should be built

[A0]

Starmill said:
The modern success of the Marshlink line was also down to HS1 primarily, with the extra 'commuter' services to Ashford International for connecting services to London St Pancras making it ideal for journeys like Rye to London, where in the old days that would have been almost impossible.

That will have been a factor, however the combination of the introduction of the 171's (much as I love the thumpers) and the extension west of Hastings have done a great deal to increase ridership over the last twenty years.

.

Oh come off it - the Channel Tunnel link is far more a factor than a bunch of new DMUs and running beyond Hastings to Eastbourne, the fact it capacity was still handled with 2 car units is evidence of that. The reason those services were curtailed to Eastbourne rather than Brighton is 2 car units were *too small* for that part of the route, yet are more than adequate east of Ore.

 

[yorksrob]

But it has already been said that would be feasible to connect Tavistock with Plymouth by rail, although it would be expensive, produce a limited service of perhaps every two hours on a single track, and would probably not be a reasonable priority.

However that's not an argument for Tavistock to Okehampton.

It's fine it "already being said" on here that Tavistock to Plymouth is feasible, however its not getting done. I'd like to see the section from Plymouth to Tavistock completed on its own merits, however I would still call for the opening of the through route later on.

Oh come off it - the Channel Tunnel link is far more a factor than a bunch of new DMUs and running beyond Hastings to Eastbourne, the fact it capacity was still handled with 2 car units is evidence of that. The reason those services were curtailed to Eastbourne rather than Brighton is 2 car units were *too small* for that part of the route, yet are more than adequate east of Ore.

I've been using the Marshlink regularly from the mid-1980's onwards, so I feel qualified to post my observations on the route.

The whole route is very busy and often the two carriages are decidedly cosy or even overcrowded East of Ore. The reasons for this are manyfold, you could probably include the MacArthur Park designer outlet at Ashford. All of this goes to show that the route has always had a lot of potential, and investment has helped to nurture that.

Your dismissal of the through service portrays a lack of knowledge. Plenty of people stay on the train past Hastings in my experience.

 

[43096]

The fact that the LNER/EMR arrangement to which you're referring was complicated by unforeseen issues with the replacement stock is a delivery problem and not a defect with the overall concept.

The original idea was an utter nonsense. There were better ways of achieving the same thing for far less risk.

 

[Starmill]

It's fine it "already being said" on here that Tavistock to Plymouth is feasible, however its not getting done.

But Portishead - Bristol, Ashington - Newcastle, Oxford - Milton Keynes and Leven - Edinburgh actually are being reconnected by rail in the next few years. Tavistock - Plymouth coming before any of those, or before any of the other high priority enhancements, at a time when the government have reduced the capital budget by £1.5 billion would be an example of poor prioritisation. To say nothing of the impacts of HS2 and NPR as new railways in planning.

however I would still call for the opening of the through route later on.

And that is precisely the issue.

 

[yorksrob]

But Portishead - Bristol, Ashington - Newcastle, Oxford - Milton Keynes and Leven - Edinburgh actually are being reconnected by rail in the next few years. Tavistock - Plymouth coming before any of those, or before any of the other high priority enhancements, at a time when the government have reduced the capital budget by £1.5 billion would be an example of poor prioritisation. To say nothing of the impacts of HS2 and NPR as new railways in planning.

And I agree with those openings being done. And I'm aware of the impacts of HS2 etc, however I don't see those as an excuse for neglecting rural connections.

 

[zwk500]

Incedentally, the proposal to reopen the Dunstable line a few years back could have formed part of a viable Luton - Milton Keynes rail connection, however the anti-rail powers that be copped out with a guided busway instead.

The busway serves Luton, Dunstable and Milton Keynes far better than a rail link ever could. The 99 coach from CMK runs past the Shopping Centre, MKC station, through Dunstable, Luton town centre, Luton Station and finally direct to the Airport. I can't comment on loadings but certainly the times I've been to Luton airport from MK I've much preferred chucking my suitcase underneath and then sitting back until we're there rather than shuttle bus/LART, Train and bus/taxi.

EWR will shortly give an improved connection between MK and Luton via Bedford for those who don't wish to use the M1.

 

[yorksrob]

EWR will shortly give an improved connection between MK and Luton via Bedford for those who don't wish to use the M1.

That's good. People can stop using it to derail this thread.

 

[Starmill]

And I agree with those openings being done. And I'm aware of the impacts of HS2 etc, however I don't see those as an excuse for neglecting rural connections.

So would you say for example that it would be better if the funding going towards the Northumberland line to reinstate a passenger service to Ashington should be going towards Okehampton to Tavistock instead? Or do you just think that engineering and construction resources aren't limited and don't need to be carefully prioritised?

 

[A0]

I've been using the Marshlink regularly from the mid-1980's onwards, so I feel qualified to post my observations on the route.

The whole route is very busy and often the two carriages are decidedly cosy or even overcrowded East of Ore. The reasons for this are manyfold, you could probably include the MacArthur Park designer outlet at Ashford. All of this goes to show that the route has always had a lot of potential, and investment has helped to nurture that.

Your dismissal of the through service portrays a lack of knowledge. Plenty of people stay on the train past Hastings in my experience.

I'll treat your claims of a train being "busy" and "plenty of people using it" with caution given you *always* manage to seem to be on busy trains on routes where the official statistics seem to point out that it's rare for more than a handful of people using the line.

 

[yorksrob]

So would you say for example that it would be better if the funding going towards the Northumberland line to reinstate a passenger service to Ashington should be going towards Okehampton to Tavistock instead? Or do you just think that engineering and construction resources aren't limited and don't need to be carefully prioritised?

Oh no, I certainly wouldn't put a rural route ahead of a reopening such as Blythe and Tyne.

That said, given the current situation, I might scale down or pause some of the enhancements designed to increase commuter capacity such as Crossrail 2. I might not remodel Croydon - unless it helped to get Lewes - Uckfield reinstated.

I'll treat your claims of a train being "busy" and "plenty of people using it" with caution given you *always* manage to seem to be on busy trains on routes where the official statistics seem to point out that it's rare for more than a handful of people using the line.

And where is your evidence for that ? I travel on a lot of trains and just because i travel on busy trains on some routes, doesn't mean I don't sometimes travel on less busy ones. That said, quiet trains on the Marshlink are genuinely a lot more difficult to come across than they were twenty years ago.

 

[A0]

The busway serves Luton, Dunstable and Milton Keynes far better than a rail link ever could. The 99 coach from CMK runs past the Shopping Centre, MKC station, through Dunstable, Luton town centre, Luton Station and finally direct to the Airport. I can't comment on loadings but certainly the times I've been to Luton airport from MK I've much preferred chucking my suitcase underneath and then sitting back until we're there rather than shuttle bus/LART, Train and bus/taxi.

EWR will shortly give an improved connection between MK and Luton via Bedford for those who don't wish to use the M1.

OT but according to Stagecoach's website the 99 doesn't serve Dunstable - it leaves the M1 at Jnc 11 at heads straight to Luton on the A505. So the busway doesn't serve MK as far as I can see.

 

[Starmill]

That said, given the current situation, I might scale down or pause some of the enhancements designed to increase commuter capacity such as Crossrail 2.

There's no Crossrail 2 money to reallocate to anywhere else.

 

[paul1609]

So clearly the bus is doing what its designed to do, moving people short distances within urban areas. That sounds like a very long winded, congested journey for people wanting to get from Tavistock to further afield.

People from the South East with very extesive public transport provision, don't often realise that just because rural areas of necessity have high levels of car ownership, people might not always have access to it. Another member of the household might be the primary user for example, and even rural residents have to visit outside of their towns more than once every ten years.

The problem with the connectivity is that Exeter St David's Station is 39 miles north east of Tavistock taking around an hour by road. Whatever mode of transport you provide going south for 15 miles to Plymouth rail station where a train to Exeter takes approximately an hour won't be competitive. In the other direction Liskeard is 18 miles south west taking 35 mins. Again travelling 15 miles due south to take a train that takes 25 mins does make any sense.

Here in the rural fringes of Ashford District less than 60 miles from Charing Cross our "extensive public transport provision" comprises an expensive bus service that runs every 2 hours 5 1/2 days a week with no provision after 6pm. (3 on Saturdays). The nearest national rail service is 6 miles walk away where an hourly all stations service will take us to Ashford. We will be fleeced nearly £80 for an anytime return to London. So I'd suggest we have a better appreciation of rural transport issues than you would imagine.

 

[Shenandoah]

It is noticeable than many proponents of the LSWR route skirting Dartmoor are people who live elsewhere.
New developments are being sited east of Plymouth and near Exeter - with east access to the GWR route. Plymouth - Tavistock is worthwhile but beyond that to Meldon all in the imagination.
As far as tourism is concerned the figure quoted in an earlier post refers, in the main, to the southern parts and other coastal areas of the north of the county.

 

[HSTEd]

It is noticeable than many proponents of the LSWR route skirting Dartmoor are people who live elsewhere.
New developments are being sited east of Plymouth and near Exeter - with east access to the GWR route. Plymouth - Tavistock is worthwhile but beyond that to Meldon all in the imagination.
As far as tourism is concerned the figure quoted in an earlier post refers, in the main, to the southern parts and other coastal areas of the north of the county.

I think even if you were to try and go beyond Okehampton - trying to reach Bude rather than Bere Alston is a much better idea.

 

[yorksrob]

The problem with the connectivity is that Exeter St David's Station is 39 miles north east of Tavistock taking around an hour by road. Whatever mode of transport you provide going south for 15 miles to Plymouth rail station where a train to Exeter takes approximately an hour won't be competitive. In the other direction Liskeard is 18 miles south west taking 35 mins. Again travelling 15 miles due south to take a train that takes 25 mins does make any sense.

Here in the rural fringes of Ashford District less than 60 miles from Charing Cross our "extensive public transport provision" comprises an expensive bus service that runs every 2 hours 5 1/2 days a week with no provision after 6pm. (3 on Saturdays). The nearest national rail service is 6 miles walk away where an hourly all stations service will take us to Ashford. We will be fleeced nearly £80 for an anytime return to London. So I'd suggest we have a better appreciation of rural transport issues than you would imagine.

To be honest, the hourly service from a station such as Appledore isn't the best, but for the small size of the settlements nearby, it isn't bad at all. I live in a town of 20,000 and our service is only hourly through most of the day. Many towns such as Ilfracombe, Tavistock would be grateful for such a service.

80 quid is expensive, however you can get an off-peak day return to Charing Cross for £26 (less with a Network card).

I think even if you were to try and go beyond Okehampton - trying to reach Bude rather than Bere Alston is a much better idea.

Bude is definitely a missing link. It's the sort of line I would love to see open, I do wonder if it is that bit too long and rural to reopen.

 

[zwk500]

OT but according to Stagecoach's website the 99 doesn't serve Dunstable - it leaves the M1 at Jnc 11 at heads straight to Luton on the A505. So the busway doesn't serve MK as far as I can see.

It may miss out dunstable then, but I've definitely got a 99 bus from MK to Luton Airport, and it definitely used at least part of the busway, This was about 3 years ago, so the routes may have changed.

Mods - Apologies for dragging this even further off-topic.

 

[Starmill]

It may miss out dunstable then, but I've definitely got a 99 bus from MK to Luton Airport, and it definitely used at least part of the busway, This was about 3 years ago, so the routes may have changed.

Mods - Apologies for dragging this even further off-topic.

The 99 between Luton and Milton Keynes doesn't serve Dunstable or use the busway, but the F70/F77 do. But this is extremely far from the topic.

 

[stuu]

I might not remodel Croydon - unless it helped to get Lewes - Uckfield reinstated.

This is the issue I have: hundreds of thousands of people use the railway between East Croydon and Central London every day. Why is improving their journeys less important than connecting two fairly small towns in East Sussex? I just don't see any rationality in that

 

[yorksrob]

This is the issue I have: hundreds of thousands of people use the railway between East Croydon and Central London every day. Why is improving their journeys less important than connecting two fairly small towns in East Sussex? I just don't see any rationality in that

They do use it everyday. That particular stretch of railway line has some pretty extensive infrastructure aleady, and its enhancement is primarily to deal with future commuting growth. If that growth is no longer going to happen due to changed working patterns, I think it would be better looking at some reinstatements in areas that don't have a railway service.

 

[zwk500]

This is the issue I have: hundreds of thousands of people use the railway between East Croydon and Central London every day. Why is improving their journeys less important than connecting two fairly small towns in East Sussex? I just don't see any rationality in that

Because it's apparently more important to open as many route miles of track as possible than to actually have capacity to run the services in demand.

They do use it everyday. That particular stretch of railway line has some pretty extensive infrastructure aleady, and its enhancement is primarily to deal with future commuting growth. If that growth is no longer going to happen due to changed working patterns, I think it would be better looking at some reinstatements in areas that don't have a railway service.

The infrastructure in the Croydon area is completely overburdened and demand is returning very fast in London across the day, even if the peaks aren't what they were. Croydon might not need it's original form, but it'll definitely need something. Uckfield and Lewes already have rail services, and Uckfield has a very good bus links to Lewes, Brighton and Eastbourne. The only settlement of any size in the area without a rail service is Ringmer, and nobody appears to even consider the physical possibility that this line might be moved from the original route, which floods every year.

 

[Starmill]

They do use it everyday. That particular stretch of railway line has some pretty extensive infrastructure aleady, and its enhancement is primarily to deal with future commuting growth. If that growth is no longer going to happen due to changed working patterns, I think it would be better looking at some reinstatements in areas that don't have a railway service.

The additional platform at East Croydon and improved use of grade separation in the Windmill Bridge area would mainly have been needed to support the reliable operation of the existing service, to reduce conflicts causing pathing time, and to bring about reorganisation of the routes to maximise capacity e.g. more calls at Norwood Junction, rather than being able to run many more trains. The same could be said of grade separation at Woking Jn. However it's very unlikely that either will be funded at all now.

 

[yorksrob]

Because it's apparently more important to open as many route miles of track as possible than to actually have capacity to run the services in demand.

The infrastructure in the Croydon area is completely overburdened and demand is returning very fast in London across the day, even if the peaks aren't what they were. Croydon might not need it's original form, but it'll definitely need something. Uckfield and Lewes already have rail services, and Uckfield has a very good bus links to Lewes, Brighton and Eastbourne. The only settlement of any size in the area without a rail service is Ringmer, and nobody appears to even consider the physical possibility that this line might be moved from the original route, which floods every year.

As I mentioned, I would be inclined to review in light of current trends.

The additional platform at East Croydon and improved use of grade separation in the Windmill Bridge area would mainly have been needed to support the reliable operation of the existing service, to reduce conflicts causing pathing time, and to bring about reorganisation of the routes to maximise capacity e.g. more calls at Norwood Junction, rather than being able to run many more trains. The same could be said of grade separation at Woking Jn. However it's very unlikely that either will be funded at all now.

I'd be more inclined to sort out Woking because grade separation has been on the "to do" list there for decades, whereas Croydon was only re-done fairly recently.

 

[zwk500]

I'd be more inclined to sort out Woking because grade separation has been on the "to do" list there for decades, whereas Croydon was only re-done fairly recently.

So we should be doing projects just because people have been proposing them for a long time? The numerous timetabling exercises that have demonstrated no benefit is possible towards Wimbledon should be ignored just so we can 'get on with it'.

 

[yorksrob]

So we should be doing projects just because people have been proposing them for a long time? The numerous timetabling exercises that have demonstrated no benefit is possible towards Wimbledon should be ignored just so we can 'get on with it'.

Not really.

More because Woking is a major junction without any grade separation, whereas the junctions North of Croydon are already to a large extent grade separated.

 

[Irascible]

Probably not - but they're not really comparable given they are 11,000 and 5,000 respectively.

That said, I don't think reopening Tavistock - Okehampton makes sense in any case.

If you were looking to provide resilience to Devon & Cornwall's railway, then you'd also look at how to speed up journeys etc - so back to the GWR's proposal to avoid Dawlish, which at least has the merit of continuing to serve alot of people along the south Devon coast.

I would like to see the bits west of Newton Abbott looked at too - hills might be a bit less of a problem these days ( well, maybe if it was wired ) but it could do with a general speed-up & stations ( well, Ivybridge ) put somewhere more useful.

Gonig back to the actual thread topic - 95% agree, but there's a few lines which probably shouldn't have closed ( I'll use my usual Ilfracombe theoretical example - an awkward case that has had a couple of studies demonstrating negative impact since it's gone despite apparently poor use, plus very limited ability to do anything about it ) where the old alignment is likely the best bet for putting a service back anyway. Even with that case it'd not be the same line as when closed.

How are we doing for tunneling granite & other hard stone these days?

 

[Irascible]

I think even if you were to try and go beyond Okehampton - trying to reach Bude rather than Bere Alston is a much better idea.

Originally that line was going to terminate at Holsworthy, because Bude wasn't important enough even benig a harbour. Bude/Stratton & Holsworthy have a pop of about 15k put together & it's about 30 miles to Okehampton so that might be a hard sell would be a nice trip though.

 

[daodao]

I've repeatedly suggested that a simple Tavistock - Plymouth service would be worth considering - it's a link from a town of eleven thousand people to the nearest city on a corridor that can sustain a frequent commercial bus service - whilst the train won't serve the popular Hospital or penetrate Plymouth City Centre properly, it's worth investigating whether a railway can be re-opened for that kind of line

It wouldn't need to be anything fancy, a single track siding from Bere Alston, it doesn't need to be "high speed" - but then projects like Ebbw Vale and Alloa were pretty modest (simple short and "slow") and seem to have worked okay.

Returning to the thread topic, I agree that re-opening Tavistock-Bere Alston seems worth considering. However, it wouldn't be straightforward because of the existence of the approximately 2 hourly socially necessary service to Gunnislake, which will need to be retained. Anything more than a 2 hourly service to Tavistock, with trains dividing at Bere Alston, would require significant rail infrastructure works to cope with additional trains, either:

• major track works at Bere Alston and re-opening a 2nd platform there; or
• a dynamic loop between Bere Ferrers and Bere Alston.

Neither would be cheap, and even then only an hourly service could be operated and trains would still need to divide at Bere Alston. The need for extra drivers and guards for the separate trains after splitting at Bere Alston would also increase costs.

 

[stuu]

I believe that was the reason for the huge leap in costs. The original costing of £20m ish was for 6 miles of railway, the £90m cost reflects what is actually needed to run a service

 

[paul1609]

Not really.

More because Woking is a major junction without any grade separation, whereas the junctions North of Croydon are already to a large extent grade separated.

That's not really true. The seperation there is largely to segregate the slow line Victoria & West Croydon line traffic from crossing the London Bridge and Victoria Fasts on the flat. I bet that Windmill Junction and the associated Junctions have many times the number of conflicting flat train movements of Woking.