And Another One In Trouble - TfW

[HH]

Over the next few months, there are likely to be challenges. As well as the ongoing 170 training 230 and MKIV training is going to be a factor, and as the weather gets warmer more people will be using up their annual leave entitlements as well. However, the training centres are still working flat out so hopefully now we're seeing staff numbers continue to rise we'll be able to see this current good patch of staff availability continue.

The W&B franchise has a very particular issue that causes it to need more drivers than normal. They have a lot of depots where trans are stabled and cleaned, but maintenance is only carried out at a few, with each of these depots maintaining different stock. This causes a requirement for stock to be moved to the maintenance depots at the end of the day during the week (and then back again the next day). In a bid, when looking to do quick unit diagrams, you might normally assume that the unit goes back to the depot it started from. At W&B that would be a mistake and would cause you to understate ECS mileage, and the driver requirement for such mileage.

 

[PHILIPE]

The W&B franchise has a very particular issue that causes it to need more drivers than normal. They have a lot of depots where trans are stabled and cleaned, but maintenance is only carried out at a few, with each of these depots maintaining different stock. This causes a requirement for stock to be moved to the maintenance depots at the end of the day during the week (and then back again the next day). In a bid, when looking to do quick unit diagrams, you might normally assume that the unit goes back to the depot it started from. At W&B that would be a mistake and would cause you to understate ECS mileage, and the driver requirement for such mileage.

I don't seem to see any evidence of TFW stock running empty all over the network every night. All stock diagrams cycle round their appropriate Depots with a lot out stabled overnight and return to a suitable location the next night. The only ones I can bring to mind are Chester to Llandudno Junction and short distances between Crewe and Shrewsbury and Chester.

 

[Dai Corner]

I don't seem to see any evidence of TFW stock running empty all over the network every night. All stock diagrams cycle round their appropriate Depots with a lot out stabled overnight and return to a suitable location the next night. The only ones I can bring to mind are Chester to Llandudno Junction and short distances between Crewe and Shrewsbury and Chester.

Indeed. I was going to say that stabling trains at remote locations reduces the number of ECS movements compared with running them ECS to depots after the last service at night and back again for the first service in the morning. In the case of the 37s stabled at Rhymney the total mileage is halved.

 

[craigybagel]

There are already 4 depots within the TfW network carrying out maintenance (Canton, Machynlleth, Crewe and Chester). Given the relatively small size of the area covered by the franchise compared to the InterCity TOCs I'd say that wasn't too bad going? There is a bit of a swap every morning between Sprinters maintained at Crewe needing to get to Chester and North Wales, and 175s maintained at Chester needing to get to Crewe, but for the most part the diagrams are worked in a very efficient manner with drivers ferrying those units as part of other duties that require them to be at the other location for their next working anyway.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Ironically though, none of those things are TfW's fault, nor could they do anything about them.

Late PRM mods - fault of Arriva TW / Welsh Govt & DfT inaction during the last franchise
Delays to extra/replacement rolling stock - 769s - fault of Porterbrook, 230s - fault of Vivarail etc.
Delays to transfer of Valley lines infrastructure - fault of DfT / NR and Boris Johnson calling a December general election.

Were TfW not aware of those potential issues when they made their grand promises at the start of the franchise though?
Surely they'd have been better being upfront and honest, saying there will be a short time of pain before the improvements that will be coming will be felt?

edit - quoted wrong post.

 

[craigybagel]

Were TfW not aware of those potential issues when they made their grand promises at the start of the franchise though?
Surely they'd have been better being upfront and honest, saying there will be a short time of pain before the improvements that will be coming will be felt?

There wasn't meant to have been any short term pain - the 230s and 769s were meant to be in service by now to alleviate that.

 

[WelshBluebird]

There wasn't meant to have been any short term pain - the 230s and 769s were meant to be in service by now to alleviate that.

By now, yes. But the TfW have had the franchise for over a year now. They must have known there was an issue with the PRM mods for example surely when they picked up the franchise surely? Or at the very least realised that there was a potential issue there if the extra units didn't come over when they expected and do curtain public expectations until that was sorted? Isn't it totally irresponsible to raise public expectations like they did? I certainly think so anyway. All talk about improvements without caveats of what was needed for those.

 

[Caaardiff]

It probably was a bit over hyped at the start, but at the time the expectations were to have 769s and 230s in action. Although by now the continuous promises of improvements are wearing thin with the public.
If they don't arrive by the summer then it's another set of false promises and TfW really need to bite the bullet and start thinning out routes to create more flexibility. The issue of the late additions to the fleet are compounded by the unreliability of the current fleets that covering for them. It'll be nearly 2 years of delays to the stock arriving so maybe TfW can get their hands on some other trains coming off lease from other operators (if they are available!)
With regards to the depots, units are swapped around in their diagrams. You can't plan for unit failures through the day and as already said, this appears to be managed by the operational teams throughout the day.
The biggest question is how will TfW cope with the current fleet post June if the new additions still don't arrive? Those questions should be being looked in to now by the management team. If they fail to have a backup then it is most certainly going to fall to pieces.

 

[Cardiff123]

The biggest question is how will TfW cope with the current fleet post June if the new additions still don't arrive? Those questions should be being looked in to now by the management team. If they fail to have a backup then it is most certainly going to fall to pieces.

Surely the 'back up plan' is just to keep Pacers going for as long as possible? What else can TfW do? They've begged and borrowed all the available DMU's they can get their hands on. They could possibly try and get any 144s from Northern or 143s from GWR when they are released, but for TfW to be the only TOC still running Pacers towards the end of this year / start of next year would be politically toxic. I'm sure if Wales were the only place in the UK still left running Pacers, the politicians in Cardiff Bay would rather see fully accessible RRB's running instead.
If the 769s don't start in passenger service by the May TT change what's the point in TfW still waiting for them?

 

[HH]

There are already 4 depots within the TfW network carrying out maintenance (Canton, Machynlleth, Crewe and Chester). Given the relatively small size of the area covered by the franchise compared to the InterCity TOCs I'd say that wasn't too bad going? There is a bit of a swap every morning between Sprinters maintained at Crewe needing to get to Chester and North Wales, and 175s maintained at Chester needing to get to Crewe, but for the most part the diagrams are worked in a very efficient manner with drivers ferrying those units as part of other duties that require them to be at the other location for their next working anyway.

I didn't say they were inefficient, but drivers that need to get to Crewe to pick up a unit to run Chester services, won't be based at Crewe, etc. It adds a requirement that isn't there in most other TOCs.

Indeed. I was going to say that stabling trains at remote locations reduces the number of ECS movements compared with running them ECS to depots after the last service at night and back again for the first service in the morning. In the case of the 37s stabled at Rhymney the total mileage is halved.

Yes, but these drivers will be based at the depot that they're running back to, and the units will be maintained there. And the diagrams will be the same every day, whereas at W&B there are many diagrams that are day specific.

 

[Cardiff123]

And now along comes this story....

BBC News - Rail: Transport for Wales users 'among least satisfied'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51281166

Again, it's pointed out that expectations were raised far too high in the run up to and when the new franchise started. I can't remember Ken Skates talking about the new franchise in the two years before it was awarded without saying the words "world class" "transformational" and "step-change" at the same time.

(Can someone else copy and paste the entire article if needed as it's difficult for me to do on my phone)

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes, but these drivers will be based at the depot that they're running back to, and the units will be maintained there. And the diagrams will be the same every day, whereas at W&B there are many diagrams that are day specific.

Rhymney is a driver depot I believe. The late turn drivers will stable the last trains of the day there, book off and go home. Their colleagues will book on in time to take the same trains out as the first services the next morning.

 

[CambrianCoast]

Would be interesting to know what the sample split was in terms of North, Mid and South because from reading that article, the company could be mistaken for Transport for South Wales!

 

[Caaardiff]

No drivers are based at Depots. They are based at booking on points around the country. The ones that spring to mind are Carmarthen, Cardiff (St Patricks House), Shrewsbury, Machynlleth, Pwllheli, Crewe, Chester, Holyhead & Llandudno Jn.
The drivers will generally work back towards their base booking on point, which will likely include ECS moves from stations in to Depot. There are different diagrams throughout the week to rotate the units between stabling points & Depots. It doesn't really matter if that's different every day, as long as it works, it works. There's only so much space at each stabling point to store units, whether it's a depot or not. Remember Chester as an example is a 175 maintenance Depot and a 15X stabling point. Alstom do not do generic maintenance on the 15X fleet and although they do fuel 15X fleet, they don't fuel every unit stabled overnight (unless it's a 175). Canton, Crewe, Machynlleth & Holyhead will fuel every unit stabling.

 

[craigybagel]

I didn't say they were inefficient, but drivers that need to get to Crewe to pick up a unit to run Chester services, won't be based at Crewe, etc. It adds a requirement that isn't there in most other TOCs.

Quite the contrary. Both ECS runs to Chester in the morning are driven by Crewe based drivers.

 

[Carlisle]

the 230s and 769s were meant to be in service by now to alleviate that.

One can easily substitute those two classes for dozens of others within the same sentence over the last 40 years

 

[Dai Corner]

The Assembly Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee are scrutinising TfW.

Watch here

https://senedd.tv/Meeting/Clip/4394d626-b492-43c8-8f6b-c55bbc7a1263