Another paralympian delayed disembarking

[Mojo]

On TfL sub surface lines, the S stock seems to offer level boarding at many stations. Again, no freight services to worry about.

This has mostly been accomplished by the fact the car floor is lower down rather than any substantial platform modifications. I wouldn’t have thought that freight services would have anything to do with it as unlike platform humps (as seen at Tube level platforms and in the Thameslink Core) there should be no obstructions for passing trains. Also worth pointing out that staff are still required to deploy the ramp for Met line trains at the four stations on the Uxbridge branch that are accessible from street level or interchange due to the “compromise” platform heights, and also at stations with curves; this caused its own problems as due to the different design these locations now have bigger gaps than the stock they previously replaced.

 

[hwl]

On TfL sub surface lines, the S stock seems to offer level boarding at many stations. Again, no freight services to worry about.

Much lower maximum speeds allow you to have much smaller diameter wheels and bogies.

Also worth remembering than on most tube stock the bogies / wheels produce above the floor level and are carefully hidden under longitudinal seats and door locations are very restricted as they have to be either side of bogies (responsible for single leaf doors at the end of most LU stock.)

 

[AlastairFraser]

The reliability of ramps of various forms has been shown to be an issue in most places where they have been tried hence many operators globally are a a bit scared about the total delay impact of one failing extended.

OK, but at least they can say that they have given thought to a solution for disabled people to access trains without confining them to one small area of the train which could be dangerous in rush hour as with the Stadler FLIRTS or a more expensive solution in the long term by having one extra member of staff on each train to operate the ramp for disabled travellers.

 

[UDC]

I’m not clear. Had she booked the assistance in advance?

 

[theironroad]

I’m not clear. Had she booked the assistance in advance?

I don't know but doubt it, and tbh I'm firmly in the camp that people shouldn't have to.

If I was in a wheelchair and opened the curtains in the morning and thought , looks like a great day to go to the seaside or wow , it's heavy rain maybe I'll go to a museum then I'd hope I could just turn up at my local accessible station and get on the train rather than having to give 24+hrs notice...

 

[theironroad]

The problem with the CFA button (at least on the 450s I use) is that it's by the wheelchair space, not by the door. So if I'm waiting by the door for assistance/the guard to turn up and nothing happens, I'll have to leave the doorway and press the button. If the doors close while I'm doing that then it's possible and indeed probable that the guard will despatch the train. One question, how is the guard notified that the button has been pressed?

Edit to add

The last couple of days have been excellent. The guards on the trains have all made contact with me during the journey and been there on arrival at the destination station in case the station assistance doesn't turn up

Very fair point. If you're waiting at the door then going back to use the CFA would be pretty much impossible in the limited time available. I guess if someone else was around then it would be possible to ask them to use the CFA but I'd accept that is far from ideal and obviously depends on someone being around.

In hindsight a CFA next to the door control buttons would have been a good idea or as someone else suggested earlier a dedicated button to alert staff, it probably could be retrofitted but maybe there needs to be consensus on the way forward.

Customer deployed ramps seem attractive, but there would be a while host of issues with those as well.

 

[Class 170101]

Precisely, if assitance on the journey was pre-arranged as per the TOCs instructions, it's irrelevant whether the automation or the guard were responsible for repeatedly closing the doors, both are the responsibility of the TOC. There are so many posts here attempting to normalise this treatment of certain groups of passengers because of shortcomings in the railway's procedures/infrastructure/capacity which the 'great majority of passengers' (i.e. able bodied people) just get on with it. The only shortcomings are the TOCs' priorities, which are headed by profits at organisational level and personal liability at individual staff levels. What need to be changed are these priorities by concerted application of the law (through the courts) in the same way that health and safety was hammered into the skulls of industry including its staff once the Health & Safety at Work was implemented. Failing in corporate and individual responsibilities established in law should be addressed in order to make this happen.

Its also cultural and unfortunately no amount of laws being passed will achieve greater compliance. The Health and Safety at Work Act dates from 1974 - 45 years ago and yet it and its successors are still subject to breaches with individuals and businesses found guilty in the courts.

Race Relations and Sex discrimination acts subsequently passed in the mid to late 1970s but discrimination still goes on. With DDA being passed in 1998 only 20 years ago I am afraid we still as society have a long way to go to eliminate discrimination.

 

[AM9]

Its also cultural and unfortunately no amount of laws being passed will achieve greater compliance. The Health and Safety at Work Act dates from 1974 - 45 years ago and yet it and its successors are still subject to breaches with individuals and businesses found guilty in the courts.

Race Relations and Sex discrimination acts subsequently passed in the mid to late 1970s but discrimination still goes on. With DDA being passed in 1998 only 20 years ago I am afraid we still as society have a long way to go to eliminate discrimination.

No law is adhered to absolutely, from theft to murder. These laws are however directly punishable, usually because the framework that allows transgressions to occur unchecked is set by legally traceable and accountable entities. The H&S@W act. was breakthrough legislation because both the individual and the employer can be held directly responsible, making it damaging to the bottom line, - which profit seeking organisations are unsurprisingly sensitive to. The DDA is very close to that in that a company has a legal obligation to have systems that deal with the issue, and can be held to account when the declared objective of those systems fails to deliver.

 

[Llanigraham]

It should be remembered that even the DDA states "where applicable" and "where possible" in relation to building alterations. When my wife ran the shop here you could not get access into the shop because a ramp would have extended across the narrow pavement into the road.

 

[AntoniC]

The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 has been repealed and replaced by The Equality Act 2010.

 

[AM9]

The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 has been repealed and replaced by The Equality Act 2010.

Semantics. The effect is the same.

 

[OneOffDave]

I’m not clear. Had she booked the assistance in advance?

If I had to book all my journeys in advance I'd have to book assistance for three or four different trains every working day evening as I can't guarantee when I'll leave the office. The TOC got annoyed with me when I did that when I first started commuting despite their insistence that I pre-book for every journey. In reality I found that booking or not didn't make any difference

 

[Tio Terry]

The principal behind the Equalities Act is that people are treated equally. So if you have a service where you can turn up and travel without booking that should be available to all, irrespective of any mobility issues. If that isn’t the case then there is discrimination between PRM and non PRM. It is, of course, a matter for both the train operator and the station operator (where they are different) to decide how they will comply with the law.

 

[rs101]

I’m not clear. Had she booked the assistance in advance?

She'd tried repeatedly to do so, but the phone wasn't answered - something she's complained about several times. She then contacted the TOC via Twitter and they confirmed they'd arranged assistance. Something went wrong in their internal proceesses and that request either got ignored or lost somewhere within the TOC.
This week, she'd booked assistance, but they couldn't find her even though she was waiting on the right platform, in the correct area.

It's something which she reports happening far too frequently and makes it clear it's not usually the staff, they're very helpful, but the system just doesn't work. Her very sensible suggestion would be to have an app or web based system which can be used to book assistance online. That would eliminate the call queuing and provide a clear record as to what was supposed to happen. She's been working with the Rail4All developers on this.

She doesn't just sit back and complain about the current assistance systems - she's been actively campaigning to improve them for years. Was involved in discussions with Crossrail about step free access, for example. Has given evidence to select commitees about this issues she faces as a regular commuter into central London (she's an analyst for Goldman Sachs as well a multiple World & European para-dressage champion).

 

[OneOffDave]

It's something which she reports happening far too frequently and makes it clear it's not usually the staff, they're very helpful, but the system just doesn't work. Her very sensible suggestion would be to have an app or web based system which can be used to book assistance online. That would eliminate the call queuing and provide a clear record as to what was supposed to happen. She's been working with the Rail4All developers on this.

This mirrors my experience. Apart from the (very) odd exception, the staff have been great and done what they can to facilitate my travel. The booking system works for those who don't travel regularly but it's time consuming and unreliable for those of us who commute every working day (5 years next week for me). Providing better tech to all assistance staff would be useful too. The ones at Waterloo only have radios so everything they need to know has to go through the bod in the office which can lead to delays

 

[Class 170101]

The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 has been repealed and replaced by The Equality Act 2010.

Semantics. The effect is the same.

Agree with this.

I should point out the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 to which I was referring to has been updated many times since then but is still referred to as such.

 

[Tio Terry]

Agree with this.

I should point out the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 to which I was referring to has been updated many times since then but is still referred to as such.

I would disagree, there are significant and important changes between the DDA and EA.

 

[Class 170101]

I would disagree, there are significant and important changes between the DDA and EA.

But one has been superseded by another and aspects of what was in the DDA will not have been updated by the Equality Act.

 

[ashkeba]

The equipment has to go elsewhere and when you have fixed platform lengths (e.g. constrained to 240m by Waterloo platforms in this case) relocation to a locomotive /generator car or to within the passenger space reduces spaces total for passengers. Relocation to the roof also causes stability issues especially as the weight of the rest of the train is reduced to improve energy efficiency.
Low floor also involves split floor levels (the floor has to raise to go over the bogies) which then constrains seating to a certain extent (similar to lower floor of double decker bus along with narrow gangways and confines wheel chair users to a very small space near where they board. Also unsuitable for longitudinal seating like LO and Crossrail use.

Nothing is without challenges or drawbacks but currently the solutions chosen usually seem to be at the expense of PRM access.

Extensive discussion of the Anglia Flirts page were forum users have started to notice the space inefficiency but in the Anglia case there is still more space than there was before with existing DMUs or the Norwich 90+MK3s so less noticable unlike on SWR where it would be a reduction. On a 345 /710 you can take a wheelchair from end to end of the unit but in a low floor unit they are confined to a 6-8m section of the train even if all the seats were removed.

That's nice but rather irrelevant to a wheelchair user who can't even get onto a 345/710 when the assistance does not show up.

Level boarding with anything more than the the smallest gap also leads to a trip hazard for ambulatory users and it ends up being safer having a step up into the train (there is research on this) provided the step is within certain parameters.

Could someone share this research please? It seems rather counterintuitive that a flat step is worse than a UK low step.

See the current discussion on the GA flirt introduction here (started on the page before) as the penny has started to drop once people have been on them:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/abellio-greater-anglia-new-stadler-flirt-trains.148431/page-119

I read that one because the trains are interesting and local to me. I have not seen many of the pennies you seem to.