Another TfL racism incident: Woman jailed

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Ivo

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Yet another incident on public transport in London (remember this one on the Tramlink?) - and another person sent down.

From the BBC:

Racist Tube rant woman Jacqueline Woodhouse jailed

A London Underground passenger has been jailed for 21 weeks after she admitted hurling racist abuse at fellow passengers.

Jacqueline Woodhouse, 42, of Romford, east London, directed an expletive-ridden rant at Tube passengers on the Central line on 23 January.

A seven-minute video of the verbal assault was uploaded to YouTube.

She received a 21-week prison sentence and a five-year Asbo at Westminster Magistrates' Court.

Woodhouse admitted racially aggravated intentional harassment, at the court, earlier in May.

The prosecution offered no evidence on a separate charge of racially aggravated common assault.

The court heard she stumbled over a black woman named Judy Russell as she boarded the carriage and proceeded to hurl insults, shouting: "You Africans take our council flats."

The video shows Galbant Juttla, who filmed the incident on his mobile phone, telling Woodhouse to keep her mouth shut and that she had had too much to drink.

"It's not your country anyway so what's your problem?" she said.

"It's been overtaken by people like you."

In further remarks, on a packed train between St Paul's and Mile End stations, she told passengers: "I'll have you arrested because you don't live here" and "I hope you are not claiming benefits."

The video of the verbal assault was viewed on YouTube more than 200,000 times.

Woodhouse handed herself into police, telling officers she could not remember the comments but recognised herself in the video.

This country is sadly showing no signs of improving, particularly in London. Anyone who saw Panorama last night and believed the program's usual bias needs to think twice after seeing something like this.

At least she turned herself in though, so honesty and the like aren't completely dead; I suspect this may have reduced her sentence slightly. In no way though does it suggest that she doesn't deserve this result - racism is, and always will be, completely unacceptable.

Anyone who wishes to see the Youtube video - click on the BBC link.
 
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The UK is probably the most tolerant and lease racially-biased country in the world. In fact, the smartest family in the UK is black. http://seriouslyamerica.tumblr.com/post/20220515294/naijaboyzay-englands-smartest-family-is.

I'm sure there are a few people who don't like African, Jamaican, or Indian immigrants, but for the most part people in the UK are friendly. Nearly 1/3 of London's population is foreign-born. As far as this incident is concerned, it is just an isolated incident.
 

Ivo

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As far as this incident is concerned, it is just an isolated incident.

It's not as "cosy" as your national press probably suggest. Such incidents still happen on a semi-regular basis, and there are some areas that are real "danger-zones" for people from ethnic minorities and the like.

Having said that though, a lot of London's gang culture involves substantial numbers of black people, so it works both ways.
 

NY Yankee

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It's not as "cosy" as your national press probably suggest. Such incidents still happen on a semi-regular basis, and there are some areas that are real "danger-zones" for people from ethnic minorities and the like.

Having said that though, a lot of London's gang culture involves substantial numbers of black people, so it works both ways.

I don't mean to go off topic, but I have no choice here. I'm a black American. Whenever I walk by Penn Station or Grand Central, I see homeless people. 95% of them are black. The president of my country is black and many white Americans hate him because of his skin color. The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world. The vast majority of the prisoners are black (British prisons are hotels compared to American prisons). Most blacks in America live in poverty and do not finish college.

I've never been to the UK (that will likely change in the next 1-3 years), but based on what I've seen in the Tube videos and the media, blacks in the UK have it a lot better than blacks in America. I've seen black train drivers, station managers, and engineers. I also saw both black and white Londoners partying at the Notting Hill Carnival. I would be naive if I said that there are perfect race relations in the UK. Nevertheless, the UK is a more tolerant country than the US. Seal was married to Heidi Klum. That would never happen in America.

I used to post at a New York City subway fansite. It was full of vile and bigoted threads. The Rail UK Forum is different. Although I've made a few unintentional mistakes, you guys have welcomed me with open arms.
 

Ivo

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I don't mean to go off topic, but I have no choice here. I'm a black American. Whenever I walk by Penn Station or Grand Central, I see homeless people. 95% of them are black. The president of my country is black and many white Americans hate him because of his skin color. The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world. The vast majority of the prisoners are black (British prisons are hotels compared to American prisons). Most blacks in America live in poverty and do not finish college.

I've never been to the UK (that will likely change in the next 1-3 years), but based on what I've seen in the Tube videos and the media, blacks in the UK have it a lot better than blacks in America. I've seen black train drivers, station managers, and engineers. I also saw both black and white Londoners partying at the Notting Hill Carnival. I would be naive if I said that there are perfect race relations in the UK. Nevertheless, the UK is a more tolerant country than the US. Seal was married to Heidi Klum. That would never happen in America.

We know things are worse in the States, and many of us find that unacceptable. When Obama was elected the only negative comment we would ever hear over here was "the US won't be truly clear of its racist past until it elects a Native American" - whilst true, almost every other comment was in favour of Obama, and for the most part still is. And for the most part, things are good over here - whilst I dislike it, the Notting Hill Carnival is a classic example - but they aren't perfect. When things happen, they are big news, because we are led to believe that the UK has it so good, when it practice we don't. So when stories come up, and they are quite frequent for a country of this size, it's big news.

Having said that though, outside of select centres (London and Bradford are the obvious ones), more often than not the culprits are those that are themselves not of British origin...

The Rail UK Forum is different. Although I've made a few unintentional mistakes, you guys have welcomed me with open arms.

And we intend to keep it that way :) It's always nice to have a different perspective on things, especially when said perspective is in relation to a completely different country - even if said country is like a daughter to us (:?).
 

jon0844

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The UK is probably the most tolerant and lease racially-biased country in the world. In fact, the smartest family in the UK is black. http://seriouslyamerica.tumblr.com/post/20220515294/naijaboyzay-englands-smartest-family-is.

I'm sure there are a few people who don't like African, Jamaican, or Indian immigrants, but for the most part people in the UK are friendly. Nearly 1/3 of London's population is foreign-born. As far as this incident is concerned, it is just an isolated incident.

Not totally isolated. We had a woman on a tram that is also awaiting a likely prison sentence.

However, I don't think we're as bad as what was shown on the BBC Panorama programme last night (not sure if you can see this via BBC World or whatever version of the BBC you get there?) about football fans in Ukraine and Poland.

As for the smartest family in the UK being black, I'm sure they're smart - but the smartest family in the whole of the UK? How did anyone decide that?

How do we know for sure there isn't another family that's smarter? (they could be black too, of course). :D

I remember seeing the YouTube video at the time and being totally disgusted by everything that this woman said and did. Was she not in charge of a young child at the time ?

That's the tram lady. Seems every line has its very own racist woman. This was on the Central Line.

"Ladies and Gentleman. There are currently racist women ranting on the Piccadilly and Victoria Line. A non-racist service is operating on all other London Underground lines."
 
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Clip

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It's not as "cosy" as your national press probably suggest. Such incidents still happen on a semi-regular basis, and there are some areas that are real "danger-zones" for people from ethnic minorities and the like.

Having said that though, a lot of London's gang culture involves substantial numbers of black people, so it works both ways.

It could also be said that there are some places that are real 'Danger zones' for Caucasian people too.

You will always find people from different ethnic backgrounds that will have the views this woman had to those of a different background. Its how you try and tackle it is the real key.

The other issue is the way that incidents where it has been people from an ethnic minority towards Caucasian people have been treated differently to the other way round.

Being someone who lives in quite a rough part of london you would be surprised some of the animosity that gets thrown my way at times. ME missus is quite embarrassed sometimes of the abuse we get given we are a mixed race couple - from both sides of the colour divide. And if you heard it you would be shocked too.


EDIT: Just to add im pleased this lass got jailed. Deservedly so to. It wont act as any sort of deterrent. But justice has been served. Thats all we can ask as a modern society.
 
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Kneedown

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I'm certainly not trying to open a can of worms here, but i do think it's a bit much that you can be sent down for spouting your mouth off (as vile as the content may be) but that you can burgle houses and physically assault people time and again and not be in any fear of going to prison.

Just to clarify, she certainly deserved to be brought to book for a public order offence, but i feel that those who commit more severe crimes of dishonesty and violence should be getting tougher sentences than she got, not the other way around.
 
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LE Greys

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I'm certainly not trying to open a can of worms here, but i do think it's a bit much that you can be sent down for spouting your mouth off (as vile as the content may be) but that you can burgle houses and physically assault people time and again and not be in any fear of going to prison.

Just to clarify, she certainly deserved to be brought to book for a public order offence, but i feel that those who commit more severe crimes of dishonesty and violence should be getting tougher sentences than she got, not the other way around.

I have to say I agree. When people get angry, they sometimes say stupid things, but unless they went out of their way to plan it, then I can hardly see how it compares to an actual, physical attack. Sticks and stones, remember.

I also don't much like the term 'Caucasian' being applied to people who aren't from the Caucasus. I tend to describe myself as 'Anglo-Celtic', which is fairly accurate. But that's just an annoyance.
 

tigerroar

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I'm certainly not trying to open a can of worms here, but i do think it's a bit much that you can be sent down for spouting your mouth off (as vile as the content may be) but that you can burgle houses and physically assault people time and again and not be in any fear of going to prison.

Just to clarify, she certainly deserved to be brought to book for a public order offence, but i feel that those who commit more severe crimes of dishonesty and violence should be getting tougher sentences than she got, not the other way around.

Agree with this. It's pathetic.

A fella I know is going on trial at Crown Court for sending a "racist" tweet. This country needs to give it's head a good wobble.
 

Yew

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With regards to the USA/UK thing, Im going to quote Dara O'Brian

If you said 'Lenny Henry' to a group of people in england, I think you would get more people that said 'Comedian' than said 'Black comedian' However if the same test was performed in america I doubt you would get the same result. Americans are just more aware of race.
 

jon0844

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I'm certainly not trying to open a can of worms here, but i do think it's a bit much that you can be sent down for spouting your mouth off (as vile as the content may be) but that you can burgle houses and physically assault people time and again and not be in any fear of going to prison.

Just to clarify, she certainly deserved to be brought to book for a public order offence, but i feel that those who commit more severe crimes of dishonesty and violence should be getting tougher sentences than she got, not the other way around.

I actually think that spouting off such hatred can have quite a serious psychological effect on the victim, very similar to having been attacked, mugged or burgled.

I'd say you treat them all with the same severity, as being mugged might make you scared to go out - but so would thinking that you're going to be facing people like that woman. I think it's a little more than a standard public order offence - but that's only my personal opinion.
 

Metrailway

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I actually think that spouting off such hatred can have quite a serious psychological effect on the victim, very similar to having been attacked, mugged or burgled.

I'd say you treat them all with the same severity, as being mugged might make you scared to go out - but so would thinking that you're going to be facing people like that woman. I think it's a little more than a standard public order offence - but that's only my personal opinion.

The problem is that it seems that more severe crimes are not being punished appropriately, meaning that the punishment handed down in this case seems more harsh.

For instance, on the same day of the sentencing of this woman, a sentencing of another woman who was convicted of child cruelty also happened. Her child, who had not been fed so probably was extremely hungry and thirsty, died due to mistakenly drinking 'food' for his mum's cannabis plants. She got a 12 month suspended sentence for two years with the judge claiming she would have to live with the consequences of her cataclysmic neglect long after any sentence has been served. She was pictured smiling and joking outside court.

Discrepancies in sentencing like this doesn't make sense to most people.
 

jon0844

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No it doesn't, I agree.

However, the mistake wasn't the sentencing for the racist woman but the woman above. That sounds outrageous.
 

jon91

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A fella I know is going on trial at Crown Court for sending a "racist" tweet. This country needs to give it's head a good wobble.

So you'd rather people get away with racism, because that is essentially what you are saying there. Racism is racism regardless of the medium that is performed, I'm personally glad that scrotes that have been posting racist remarks online are being brought to book.

There's some people that need to give their heads "a good wobble" me thinks.
 

yorkie

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I have to say I agree. When people get angry, they sometimes say stupid things, but unless they went out of their way to plan it, then I can hardly see how it compares to an actual, physical attack. Sticks and stones, remember.
Totally disagree. The "sticks and stones" rhyme was clearly not intended to justify inappropriate language. The reality is that people do commit suicide because of non-physical attacks. I know, sadly.
I'm certainly not trying to open a can of worms here, but i do think it's a bit much that you can be sent down for spouting your mouth off (as vile as the content may be) but that you can burgle houses and physically assault people time and again and not be in any fear of going to prison.
But is that really true? I think this is hyperbole. As a one-off, you're right violent crimes do result in the criminal being let off, but surely not if they do it "time and time again"?. The sentence in this case was right, it's the sentences for violent crimes that are lacking.
 

LE Greys

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Totally disagree. The "sticks and stones" rhyme was clearly not intended to justify inappropriate language. The reality is that people do commit suicide because of non-physical attacks. I know, sadly.

You do have a point, but from my point of view, I've had to deal with both. Verbal abse has never left me with more than wounded pride, while a physical attack gave me a knee injury which I will have to live with for the rest of my life. The culprit was never identified.
 

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Agree with this. It's pathetic.

A fella I know is going on trial at Crown Court for sending a "racist" tweet. This country needs to give it's head a good wobble.

Good. Racism has no place in this day and age whether sent by a tweet or verbally to someones face.

Do you actually know how much it hurts people? No,I dont think you do hence your pathetic attitude towards it.
 

tigerroar

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So you'd rather people get away with racism, because that is essentially what you are saying there. Racism is racism regardless of the medium that is performed, I'm personally glad that scrotes that have been posting racist remarks online are being brought to book.

There's some people that need to give their heads "a good wobble" me thinks.

If a fat man and a black man had an argument and the fat man called the black man a black bast*** while the black man called the fat man a fat bast*** why should one be dealt with more severely than the other?

Abuse is abuse and while there is special treatment for victims of "racist" abuse I'll shout down anyone who thinks that locking up the likes of this woman or the fella that I know is a good thing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do you actually know how much it hurts people? No,I dont think you do hence your pathetic attitude towards it.

Why ask a question and then answer it for me!
 

Oswyntail

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I actually think that spouting off such hatred can have quite a serious psychological effect on the victim, very similar to having been attacked, mugged or burgled.....
True - but there are a couple of provisos.
  • Any kind of aggressive language can have that effect, not just racially motivated stuff, so we should not single out racist aggression
  • It is also possible that it has no effect on the target whatsoever, so perhaps there should be different levels of offence
I was very uneasy when the definition of a "race" crime embraced anything the "victim" thought was a race crime.
 

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If a fat man and a black man had an argument and the fat man called the black man a black bast*** while the black man called the fat man a fat bast*** why should one be dealt with more severely than the other?

Abuse is abuse and while there is special treatment for victims of "racist" abuse I'll shout down anyone who thinks that locking up the likes of this woman or the fella that I know is a good thing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Why ask a question and then answer it for me!


What a stupid analogy. Fat people can lose their weight. People cannot lose the colour of their skin.

Any sort of abuse isnt nice and should have action taken against it - something you appear to think shouldnt happen because you know someone who is got in trouble for giving abuse. They should all get put down for a bit of time not only to teach them the lesson they deserve but to also show the rest of the nation that abuse will not be tolerated.

Shout all you want, you'll just make yourself look more stupid with every octave your voice gets louder.
 

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All prejudice based abuse can have extremely serious consequences for those who it is targeted at. Chances are, those who receive it are subject to abuse and discrimination on a not-infrequent basis and have been receiving it for a long time. There is the overall issue with being made to feel like a second-class citizen and the distress with having a big deal made of the affected attribute brought up on a regular basis, to the extent that members of the public are asked to fill in a survey or MPs are voting on whether they are considered reasonable.

Unfortunately for those whom it is given to, in all cases they are unable to reasonably adjust themselves to avoid instances. Freedom of speech is important, but in my eyes it stops where you are using that freedom to either incite hatred, harassment or violence. I've always thought that where a person in a debate (whether online or in person) resorts to petty insults or abuse it's a clear sign they have lost it.
 

yorkie

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Abuse is abuse and while there is special treatment for victims of "racist" abuse I'll shout down anyone who thinks that locking up the likes of this woman or the fella that I know is a good thing
In my opinion it's a good thing she was jailed, she has done it before in 2008, was fined, and did it again, so it's absolutely right. It was an appalling rant that lasted several minutes.

If anyone wants to use the violence analogy then the violence would have to last several minutes and be aimed at several people, and the perpetrator have previous history, otherwise it's just not comparable.

Thanks for the warning about wanting to shout me down, I'll try to avoid coming across you! ;)
Freedom of speech is important, but in my eyes it stops where you are using that freedom to either incite hatred, harassment or violence.
Some people seem to believe that their apparent freedoms are more important than others' and that they have the freedom to restrict the freedom of others. They may not consciously think (or admit) it, but that's essentially the problem. I come across such views on a not-infrequent basis, though mostly for low-level misdemeanours.
 

Kneedown

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What a stupid analogy. Fat people can lose their weight. People cannot lose the colour of their skin.

I can't help being Welsh, nor can i help being a part Ginge (I suppose i could dye out the ginger bits of my rapidly receding hairline, but the freckles and skin that burns lobster pink whenever the sun decides to peep out for a moment are a bit of a giveaway!) yet it's fair game to have a go at us. Anne Robinson has, as has Tony Blair. A complaint was made regarding the latter but no further action taken. Even last weeks Mail on Sunday, which shouts loudly about being responsible for Stephen Lawrence's killers being brought to justice, contained an interview with William Hague's Father, with numerous anti-Welsh references in it.
Do anti Welsh comments bother me personally? No, is the short answer. I've got a thicker skin than that. I do though, have severe misgivings about a society that imprisons people for speaking out, regardless of the content, but if we are going to have severe penalty's for thought crimes which have gone vocal, then can we please apply them equally across the board?

By the way, it's not cut and dried that "fat people can lose weight". I agree that a lot of obesity is caused by poor diet, but i know someone personally who suffered many years of obesity, the best years of their life, before being diagnosed with the Pituitary Tumor that caused it. By that time the diabetes had set in.
So it wasn't such a stupid analogy after all, as not everything is what it seems.
 

yorkie

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... if we are going to have severe penalty's for thought crimes which have gone vocal, then can we please apply them equally across the board?...
If someone made the same 7-minute rant as her against Welsh people, and had previous history like she did, then how do you know the sentence would not be "equal"?
 

tigerroar

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What a stupid analogy. Fat people can lose their weight. People cannot lose the colour of their skin.

Any sort of abuse isnt nice and should have action taken against it - something you appear to think shouldnt happen because you know someone who is got in trouble for giving abuse. They should all get put down for a bit of time not only to teach them the lesson they deserve but to also show the rest of the nation that abuse will not be tolerated.

Shout all you want, you'll just make yourself look more stupid with every octave your voice gets louder.

The reason I mentioned the person I know is because I feel when you're close to a case like this rather than seeing it on the TV or in the papers it hammers home the seriousness of it. Jailing a young dad for a tweet will be shameful.

And please, I'll respect your right to an opinion, try to do the same to mine without calling me stupid this and stupid that, there's a good lad!
 
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