Antisocial behaviour on trains

[Bletchleyite]

And risk being assaulted, off track and the ensuing shortage of staff leads to cancellations?

The risk if they simply ask is low (and in the event of refusal in a threatening manner just head off to the cab and text 61016). Probably lower than asking for a ticket.

But if staff are genuinely concerned, perhaps in problem areas we need to follow Merseyrail and provide a "rentathug" to walk round with them. Tolerating low level crime (and it is crime, it breaches a Byelaw) and antisocial behaviour leads to higher level crime and antisocial behaviour. Merseyrail's zero tolerance approach to ASB isn't to everyone's taste, but it has been extremely effective, following on from a similar approach taken on the New York Subway which went from lawless and dangerous to safe if a little run down very quickly.

 

[Robertj21a]

Quite agree, there should be added security on known 'troublesome' services.
Too many ordinary passengers are deterred from using the trains because these idiots get away with it, every time.

 

[Monty]

The risk if they simply ask is low (and in the event of refusal in a threatening manner just head off to the cab and text 61016). Probably lower than asking for a ticket.

Assuming BTP have the resources to respond, I make great use of the BTP text number. Sometimes it works, others not so much. More than happy for the company to provide a chaperone during my shifts but I suspect neither the company, the government nor the farepayer are prepared to pay for it.

It's easy to cite New York as example of how to solve a problem when they have the economy of a small country that spend a disproportionate amount of its budget on law enforcement (The NYPD's last budget was in excess of 5 billion dollars, the BTP on the other hand was a little over 300 million pounds for the entire country.

As others have said, I'll pick and choose my battles and report where I can. If people want more they can pay me an extra 15k, give me extra training and a stab vest. (The irony being it would be cheaper than a chaperone!)

 

[Meerkat]

If the staff don’t want to intervene the least I would expect is that they then go to the PA and do a “I would like to remind passengers that x is against the byelaws (or whatever) and could lead to a £X fine (cue all surrounding passengers involuntarily staring/glaring at the culprits!)
Won’t always work, but draws the line (and you can’t assume that folk know the rules, nor that they have had any thought that their behaviour is anti-social). Staff blatantly ignoring feet on seats and noise legitimises it.
Next stage up should be ask nicely. If the response is aggressive then use body cam or train video to add that person to an intelligence database.
Then treat it like the ticket fraud - an investigator picks a repeat offender who travels consistently and then pick them up and either charge them or ban them from the railway, with all attendant PR.

ps it’s something the unions could use to get on the same side as the public - both their members and passengers want something done.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the staff don’t want to intervene the least I would expect is that they then go to the PA and do a “I would like to remind passengers that x is against the byelaws (or whatever) and could lead to a £X fine (cue all surrounding passengers involuntarily staring/glaring at the culprits!)

That's a really good idea.

I also think signage helps. I've said before there should be signage saying what happens if reservations are not working and what the default is if there's a dispute over the position of the blinds, there should also be signage saying what behaviours are unacceptable. I think the Abellio TOCs used to display "house rules" posters, which are pretty universal in German speaking countries (Huisregel/Hausregeln) and make a lot of sense.

In that case announcements can be made saying something like "We would just like to draw our passengers' attention to the House Rules posters displayed throughout the train, in particular that playing electronic devices out loud is not allowed, and can result in prosecution and a fine of <whatever it is>. Can any passengers doing this please stop doing so immediately."

 

[185143]

That's a really good idea.

I also think signage helps. I've said before there should be signage saying what happens if reservations are not working and what the default is if there's a dispute over the position of the blinds, there should also be signage saying what behaviours are unacceptable. I think the Abellio TOCs used to display "house rules" posters, which are pretty universal in German speaking countries (Huisregel/Hausregeln) and make a lot of sense.

In that case announcements can be made saying something like "We would just like to draw our passengers' attention to the House Rules posters displayed throughout the train, in particular that playing electronic devices out loud is not allowed, and can result in prosecution and a fine of <whatever it is>. Can any passengers doing this please stop doing so immediately."

So you're basically proposing how ScotRail deal with the alcohol ban?

Thoughts of the ban (and compliance levels!) Firmly to one side for a minute, there's posters at stations and on trains and the conductors generally make announcements prior to departure from the origin station to inform everyone of the ban. Well, on the longer services anyway.

 

[devon_belle]

Most disruptive passengers on my commutes in (declassified) first class are the finance bros who sit down and immediately start shouting down the phone in high octane business chats and client meetings. Unbearable!

As for noise from mobile phones, it's definitely intergenerational. Everyone blaming only youths needs to remember who raised them (some of them poorly), and that it is in fact just as likely - and sometimes more common - for adults to be less self conscious about people's impression of them. "Roadmen" being a notable exception!

Was recently very pleased to see a Southern OBS go through the carriage and tell people to use earphones, quiet down phone conversations, and get their feet off the seats.

By far the greatest problem is use of bags to block seats. Especially sitting on an aisle seat with a bag on the window seat. People seem reluctant to ask others to move the bags, so you find people standing throughout a carriage while backpacks and purses remain comfortably seated for the duration.

All over the board behaviour has been worse since the pandemic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most disruptive passengers on my commutes in (declassified) first class are the finance bros who sit down and immediately start shouting down the phone in high octane business chats and client meetings. Unbearable!

Must be a Surrey thing. On the south WCML and Chiltern, ALL coaches are quiet coaches in the peaks, and woe betide (well, tutting betide) anyone who doesn't respect that.

By far the greatest problem is use of bags to block seats. Especially sitting on an aisle seat with a bag on the window seat. People seem reluctant to ask others to move the bags, so you find people standing throughout a carriage while backpacks and purses remain comfortably seated for the duration.

A lot of people just don't like sitting next to people, particularly not big people on a 3+2 layout. On the south WCML you tend to find that the vestibules get quite busy before anyone takes a middle seat of 3, certainly. Bags have relatively little to do with it - commuters have never been reticent to tell people to move them.

I think the desire not to sit next to people has reduced further since COVID, when it was drilled into people that other people were a dirty health hazard.

 

[devon_belle]

I think the desire not to sit next to people has reduced further since COVID, when it was drilled into people that other people were a dirty health hazard.

I think you're spot on there. It was/is very hard to shake this for many people, myself included.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you're spot on there. It was/is very hard to shake this for many people, myself included.

There's a small amount of truth in it. The guy sat next to me on the train last time I used one gave me a cold. Only a short one fortunately, but I'd rather not have had it

 

[greyman42]

I think you're spot on there. It was/is very hard to shake this for many people, myself included.

It's not hard for me to shake because i have never had this attitude, even in covid.

There's a small amount of truth in it. The guy sat next to me on the train last time I used one gave me a cold. Only a short one fortunately, but I'd rather not have had it

How could you possibly know where you caught the cold from?

 

[devon_belle]

It's not hard for me to shake because i have never had this attitude, even in covid.

That's great for you, but very many people are not in the same position. No matter the reason or logical basis.

 

[yorksrob]

Blocking seats with bags on busy trains is indeed very anti-social, and I will happily ask someone "if this seat is taken" i.e. sling your bloody bag out the way, and sit down.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How could you possibly know where you caught the cold from?

Whenever I spend significant time near someone who is exhibiting cold symptoms, about 1-2 days later I get a cold. It's pretty easy to work out.

 

[zwk500]

Blocking seats with bags on busy trains is indeed very anti-social, and I will happily ask someone "if this seat is taken" i.e. sling your bloody bag out the way, and sit down.

Yes, if people are looking for seats get the bag out of the way before they have to ask.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, if people are looking for seats get the bag out of the way before they have to ask.

Indeed - they don't always though. Or they need a bit of eye contact to do it. Or ultimately the nuclear option of "excuse me".... The mores of rail travel

Wouldn't swap it for any other transport mode though !

 

[trebor79]

Whenever I spend significant time near someone who is exhibiting cold symptoms, about 1-2 days later I get a cold. It's pretty easy to work out.

My wife thinks I make it up, but I can smell a cold. Someone sits next to me and I get this off smell/irritation in my sinuses and I just know I'm likley to get something.

 

[Purple Train]

My wife thinks I make it up, but I can smell a cold. Someone sits next to me and I get this off smell/irritation in my sinuses and I just know I'm likley to get something.

Can I hire you as a bodyguard please?

 

[al78]

A lot of people just don't like sitting next to people, particularly not big people on a 3+2 layout. On the south WCML you tend to find that the vestibules get quite busy before anyone takes a middle seat of 3, certainly. Bags have relatively little to do with it - commuters have never been reticent to tell people to move them.

I think the desire not to sit next to people has reduced further since COVID, when it was drilled into people that other people were a dirty health hazard.

Maybe they shouldn't be using public transport, especially if they are so scared of other people. I would find it difficult to ask someone to move a bag as I don't want to sit next to someone for half an hour who is irritated with me, and there is always the question of what you do if they tell you (politely or otherwise) to get lost.

 

[trainophile]

I boarded a train at New Street yesterday and the only other person in the coach was a lad of about 15 who was playing some awful rap type "music" out really loud. I left it a couple of minutes then went and asked him how far he was going... "Why?" - "Because that noise is getting on my nerves". "Well you move then, I was here first".

So I did. There's no arguing with some people.

 

[ChrisC]

I boarded a train at New Street yesterday and the only other person in the coach was a lad of about 15 who was playing some awful rap type "music" out really loud. I left it a couple of minutes then went and asked him how far he was going... "Why?" - "Because that noise is getting on my nerves". "Well you move then, I was here first".

So I did. There's no arguing with some people.

It’s bad enough that you get people playing music of that type at such loud volumes on public transport and in other public places. What to me is even worse is the content matter of some of the lyrics. The bad language is not pleasant, but the sexual references of what the boys are going to the girls, or even worse their bitches, can be quite offensive. I was on a tram in Manchester once where a lady felt extremely threatened and offended by the content of some of this music played loudly. She spoke to the lad playing the music and he became very abusive towards her. Fortunately someone got off quickly at the next stop and informed the driver who refused to move the tram until he got off. Following pressure from other passengers he eventually got off shouting various expletives at everyone as he did so. Fortunately he did get off, but again what weapons could he have been carrying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe they shouldn't be using public transport, especially if they are so scared of other people.

Erm...

I would find it difficult to ask someone to move a bag as I don't want to sit next to someone for half an hour who is irritated with me, and there is always the question of what you do if they tell you (politely or otherwise) to get lost.

...shows a fear of people too, if a different one.

 

[pinkmarie80]

There's a small amount of truth in it. The guy sat next to me on the train last time I used one gave me a cold. Only a short one fortunately, but I'd rather not have had it

I caught Covid on a very crowded, filthy CrossCountry train. I definitely didn’t want that!
(I suspect I wasn’t the only one as the train was so crowded no-one could move, and there was someone continually coughing and spluttering standing nearby)

 

[185143]

Was on a ScotRail train yesterday and a group of about 10 or so rowdy blokes got on at Invergordon clearly all in possession of very strong smelling weed. It was so overpowering I actually had to move to the other carriage. Opted to just sit in the vestibule as I was getting off shortly. The conductor had obviously realised I'd moved and she did stop to ask if I was ok.

 

[wysall]

I’ve just been on a 5-coach GWR, in First Class at the front of the train, with people shouting homophobic slurs at each other while staff aware of the situation shut themselves away and didn’t even bother to call the train manager. Utterly appalling.

 

[superkev]

Sadly all public transport seems to have lost the war with the yob culture. Glad I can use my car and avoid it. Used to.like riding on trains/ buses too.
K

 

[satisnek]

Has this thread had unintentional consequences? From what I've experienced this weekend just gone, since returning from holiday three weeks ago, there has been an explosion of incidences of young people, of all ethnicities, playing media out loud on smartphones. On WMR trains, 'XC-lite' trains, trentbarton buses, the whole shooting match, it's now simply inescapable. And no, it's not that I've just noticed it, because it has been driving me mad ever since the mid-2000s when the mobile phone which could play music through its ringtone sounder was introduced.

An exclamation of, "Oh God, there's always one!" sometimes works, but most of them are too wrapped up in their own importance to realise that it applies to themselves.

I still blame the smartphone manufacturers. There's no reason why these devices can't reproduce the human voice to a level of fidelity that, when heard from a few seats away, is indistinguishable from the real thing. The technology does exist! Of course, the atonal 'music' so beloved of bottom-of-the-barrel Millennial/'Gen Z' will then need to be addressed...

 

[trainophile]

Phones should be designed so they don’t play music out loud when there’s no earphones or earpods connected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Phones should be designed so they don’t play music out loud when there’s no earphones or earpods connected.

There is a valid case to use the speaker, though, i.e. in non-public places. That's thus about as workable as "phones should turn off when in a moving vehicle" as people suggest all the time, entirely forgetting that vehicles don't only contain the driver a lot of the time.

We just need to follow Merseyrail and stop pussy-footing around enforcement of the Byelaws/house rules. If people are behaving antisocially, even in a minor way, they need to not get away with it, as minor ASB leads to major ASB.

 

[al78]

Erm...



...shows a fear of people too, if a different one.

Discomfort, not fear, they are not the same things. Discomfort does not necessarily relate to a perceived threat to personal safety like fear does.

We just need to follow Merseyrail and stop pussy-footing around enforcement of the Byelaws/house rules. If people are behaving antisocially, even in a minor way, they need to not get away with it, as minor ASB leads to major ASB.

The question is how do you do that? If even the train manager (i.e. an authority) is reluctant to approach people about ASB for fear of a potentially dangerous response, who will? An ordinary member of the public has no power over anyone else and cannot force compliance. It has been going on for long enough that the perpetrators of ASB who have gotten away with it now see it as an entitlement, and once entitlement sets in it is near impossible to change (you see similar with the motoring lobby in the UK).