Any news on proposals to build an alternative route between Exeter & Plymouth?

[yorksrob]

Good value compared to what though? That is the point; value is a tool for comparison. And when you want to spend £100m of someone else’s cash (and in my view it will be more than £100m), then you need to make sure you have compared all reasonable options.

£24m I've just seen quoted on the Arriva North DOO thread as the latest DfT bung to Northern not to run a train service. That would go a long way towards a reinstatement of something like Bere Alston - Tavistock. Yet this joke department and its apologists have the front to lecture us about BCR's and "spending other peoples money".


I wonder who undertook the BCR analysis for that expenditure and what the result was.

 

[deltic08]

£24m I've just seen quoted on the Arriva North DOO thread as the latest DfT bung to Northern not to run a train service. That would go a long way towards a reinstatement of something like Bere Alston - Tavistock. Yet this joke department and its apologists have the front to lecture us about BCR's and "spending other peoples money".


I wonder who undertook the BCR analysis for that expenditure and what the result was.

I think it is compensation to Northern for lost revenue during the Saturday RMT strikes.

 

[yorksrob]

I think it is compensation to Northern for lost revenue during the Saturday RMT strikes.

Or a bribe to stop them coming to an agreement with the union.

 

[deltic08]

Or a bribe to stop them coming to an agreement with the union.

and what would that achieve?

 

[yorksrob]

and what would that achieve?

That's what we'd all really like to know.

 

[backontrack]

Re-openings that promote 1 or more of the above may be worthwhile. Others that are widely touted are not. These include:
Tavistock-Okehampton
Aberystwyth-Carmarthen
Beverley-York
Carlisle-Hawick
Colne-Skipton
Northallerton-Ripon
The Port Road
Cambridge-Bedford
Pickering-Malton

They would be basket cases.

A couple on that list are certainly worthwhile.

 

[Brush 4]

Yes, some actual news, after digging around various of the bodies involved. This email received before Xmas.

'The Bere Alston-Tavistock rail scheme was included as part of a 3-phase reopening of the northern line between Plymouth and Exeter in the Peninsula Rail Task Force's 20 year plan, which Devon County Council had involvement with producing, alongside Cornwall Council, Plymouth City Council, Torbay Council and Somerset County Council. The Rail Minister responded to the plan in February this year, (2018) with an ask that 'Great Western Railway play their part in supporting the development of longer term proposals such as the potential scheme to reopen the railway between Plymouth and Tavistock'. Government also asked GWR to take forward proposals for introducing regular weekday services between Okehampton and Exeter – this work is ongoing. The Tavistock – Bere Alston scheme also features in our Transport Infrastructure Plan, which identifies major infrastructure projects across the County, which we are seeking to deliver up to 2030. I’ve attached a copy for information.

There are no timescales as to when the scheme is likely to come forward as it will be subject to securing external grant funding as, although we have secured section 106 from residential development in the area, there is a significant funding gap as we estimate the project to be in the region of £60m. Separate to this project, the Government has committed £15m to progress surveys and engineering design work on improving the resilience of the Dawlish to Teignmouth section of the mainline. The Secretary of State for Transport has previously described the mainline through Dawlish as a national priority so we would anticipate any future Government funding for significant rail resilience projects in the South West to be directed towards the delivery of improvements along this section of railway rather than on delivering new routes, such as the Tavistock to Bere Alston line.

Devon County Council has nevertheless been making progress with acquiring land between Tavistock and Bere Alston over several years and has been undertaking the necessary environmental, ecological and topographical surveys to enable our designers to better understand some of the barriers to delivery with the project – from experience, our strength in convincing Government to fund major infrastructure projects (such as the North Devon Link Road improvements and South Devon Link Road), is being able to demonstrate that design work is at an advanced stage and land has been secured to give funders assurances that we have a deliverable project.'

So, it is not dead, it has not ceased to be. A 3 phase plan so, even the middle bit isn't dismissed out of hand. Dawlish is the priority for Gov funding but, DCC is acquiring the land for BA-Tav and preparing for any eventual movement from Government. (Why does that bit fill me with gloom). Opening by 2030 is the intention at least. Okehampton seems fairly certain before then. Tavistock looks possible if Dawlish isn't delayed too much. The middle bit not so much but, it is not an ex reopening, yet.

 

[yorksrob]

£24m I've just seen quoted on the Arriva North DOO thread as the latest DfT bung to Northern not to run a train service. That would go a long way towards a reinstatement of something like Bere Alston - Tavistock. Yet this joke department and its apologists have the front to lecture us about BCR's and "spending other peoples money".


I wonder who undertook the BCR analysis for that expenditure and what the result was.

Yes, some actual news, after digging around various of the bodies involved. This email received before Xmas.

'The Bere Alston-Tavistock rail scheme was included as part of a 3-phase reopening of the northern line between Plymouth and Exeter in the Peninsula Rail Task Force's 20 year plan, which Devon County Council had involvement with producing, alongside Cornwall Council, Plymouth City Council, Torbay Council and Somerset County Council. The Rail Minister responded to the plan in February this year, (2018) with an ask that 'Great Western Railway play their part in supporting the development of longer term proposals such as the potential scheme to reopen the railway between Plymouth and Tavistock'. Government also asked GWR to take forward proposals for introducing regular weekday services between Okehampton and Exeter – this work is ongoing. The Tavistock – Bere Alston scheme also features in our Transport Infrastructure Plan, which identifies major infrastructure projects across the County, which we are seeking to deliver up to 2030. I’ve attached a copy for information.

There are no timescales as to when the scheme is likely to come forward as it will be subject to securing external grant funding as, although we have secured section 106 from residential development in the area, there is a significant funding gap as we estimate the project to be in the region of £60m. Separate to this project, the Government has committed £15m to progress surveys and engineering design work on improving the resilience of the Dawlish to Teignmouth section of the mainline. The Secretary of State for Transport has previously described the mainline through Dawlish as a national priority so we would anticipate any future Government funding for significant rail resilience projects in the South West to be directed towards the delivery of improvements along this section of railway rather than on delivering new routes, such as the Tavistock to Bere Alston line.

Devon County Council has nevertheless been making progress with acquiring land between Tavistock and Bere Alston over several years and has been undertaking the necessary environmental, ecological and topographical surveys to enable our designers to better understand some of the barriers to delivery with the project – from experience, our strength in convincing Government to fund major infrastructure projects (such as the North Devon Link Road improvements and South Devon Link Road), is being able to demonstrate that design work is at an advanced stage and land has been secured to give funders assurances that we have a deliverable project.'

So, it is not dead, it has not ceased to be. A 3 phase plan so, even the middle bit isn't dismissed out of hand. Dawlish is the priority for Gov funding but, DCC is acquiring the land for BA-Tav and preparing for any eventual movement from Government. (Why does that bit fill me with gloom). Opening by 2030 is the intention at least. Okehampton seems fairly certain before then. Tavistock looks possible if Dawlish isn't delayed too much. The middle bit not so much but, it is not an ex reopening, yet.

Interesting. So that's two and a bit miscellaneous (presumably strike compensation) payments to Northern which would plug the gap to reopen to Tavistock.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Yes, some actual news, after digging around various of the bodies involved. This email received before Xmas.

'The Bere Alston-Tavistock rail scheme was included as part of a 3-phase reopening of the northern line between Plymouth and Exeter in the Peninsula Rail Task Force's 20 year plan, which Devon County Council had involvement with producing, alongside Cornwall Council, Plymouth City Council, Torbay Council and Somerset County Council. The Rail Minister responded to the plan in February this year, (2018) with an ask that 'Great Western Railway play their part in supporting the development of longer term proposals such as the potential scheme to reopen the railway between Plymouth and Tavistock'. Government also asked GWR to take forward proposals for introducing regular weekday services between Okehampton and Exeter – this work is ongoing. The Tavistock – Bere Alston scheme also features in our Transport Infrastructure Plan, which identifies major infrastructure projects across the County, which we are seeking to deliver up to 2030. I’ve attached a copy for information.

There are no timescales as to when the scheme is likely to come forward as it will be subject to securing external grant funding as, although we have secured section 106 from residential development in the area, there is a significant funding gap as we estimate the project to be in the region of £60m. Separate to this project, the Government has committed £15m to progress surveys and engineering design work on improving the resilience of the Dawlish to Teignmouth section of the mainline. The Secretary of State for Transport has previously described the mainline through Dawlish as a national priority so we would anticipate any future Government funding for significant rail resilience projects in the South West to be directed towards the delivery of improvements along this section of railway rather than on delivering new routes, such as the Tavistock to Bere Alston line.

Devon County Council has nevertheless been making progress with acquiring land between Tavistock and Bere Alston over several years and has been undertaking the necessary environmental, ecological and topographical surveys to enable our designers to better understand some of the barriers to delivery with the project – from experience, our strength in convincing Government to fund major infrastructure projects (such as the North Devon Link Road improvements and South Devon Link Road), is being able to demonstrate that design work is at an advanced stage and land has been secured to give funders assurances that we have a deliverable project.'

So, it is not dead, it has not ceased to be. A 3 phase plan so, even the middle bit isn't dismissed out of hand. Dawlish is the priority for Gov funding but, DCC is acquiring the land for BA-Tav and preparing for any eventual movement from Government. (Why does that bit fill me with gloom). Opening by 2030 is the intention at least. Okehampton seems fairly certain before then. Tavistock looks possible if Dawlish isn't delayed too much. The middle bit not so much but, it is not an ex reopening, yet.

Good find as i have been looking as well. Any chance of of seeing that copy that was attached to this email?

 

[Brush 4]

It is a PDF attachment and covers all Devon transport Improvements, mostly bus, cycle and road related. The main reference is just this bit.......

Tavistock Package
Reinstatement of railway line between Tavistock and Bere Alston including Park and Change and cycle link to Tamar Trail Centre
£33m S106 Agreement

However this, https://new.devon.gov.uk/roadsandtransport/traffic-information/transport-planning/ links into a whole load of Devon transport proposals, with more links to Tav and Oke and other schemes.

 

[deltic08]

Yes, some actual news, after digging around various of the bodies involved. This email received before Xmas.



So, it is not dead, it has not ceased to be. A 3 phase plan so, even the middle bit isn't dismissed out of hand. Dawlish is the priority for Gov funding but, DCC is acquiring the land for BA-Tav and preparing for any eventual movement from Government. (Why does that bit fill me with gloom). Opening by 2030 is the intention at least. Okehampton seems fairly certain before then. Tavistock looks possible if Dawlish isn't delayed too much. The middle bit not so much but, it is not an ex reopening, yet.

Brilliant. Started in 2012 expected opening 2030 for just 5.5 miles and not even into the original Tavistock station. That folks is the current state of the UK. God help us in our hour of need!

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Brilliant. Started in 2012 expected opening 2030 for just 5.5 miles and not even into the original Tavistock station. That folks is the current state of the UK. God help us in our hour of need!

Station is blocked by the local councils offices, nothing you can do about that. A new, improved and most likely a great capacity station will be built in another location.

 

[yorksrob]

Station is blocked by the local councils offices, nothing you can do about that. A new, improved and most likely a great capacity station will be built in another location.

As I've said on other threads, most Council's are trying to offload office accommodation. I'm sure those in South Devon are no different.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Station is blocked by the local councils offices, nothing you can do about that. A new, improved and most likely a great capacity station will be built in another location.

I seem to recall from a few years back that the local council who were then in favour of reopening beyond Tavistock hinted that relocation of said council offices would not be a problem, although there is further obstruction around the former station area in the shape of a small housing development I believe, the proposed new station would likely be a single platform affair several hundred metres west of the original site.

 

[Brush 4]

Satellite view shows that the offices are just off the trackbed, only a small stores(?) building is actually on the trackbed. It is the houses along the old up platform that are the main problem. The down platform and station are intact and 'preserved' in green and cream by an owner who is presumably an enthusiast. There is space for single track trains there but only if the home owners are happy to lose their back gardens. I'm sure they will see the bigger picture and do the right thing, for Queen and country.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Satellite view shows that the offices are just off the trackbed, only a small stores(?) building is actually on the trackbed. It is the houses along the old up platform that are the main problem. The down platform and station are intact and 'preserved' in green and cream by an owner who is presumably an enthusiast. There is space for single track trains there but only if the home owners are happy to lose their back gardens. I'm sure they will see the bigger picture and do the right thing, for Queen and country.

I think the former station buildings are now a highly regarded guest house, so surely the owners would agree that having real trains passing by the establishment will certainly add to the authenticity of their business

 

[Brush 4]

And provide trade if the platform was reopened separate from their business. Looking again, I see that there is a row of houses on the trackbed at the end of the viaduct. Compulsory purchase it is then........

 

[Ash Bridge]

And provide trade if the platform was reopened separate from their business. Looking again, I see that there is a row of houses on the trackbed at the end of the viaduct. Compulsory purchase it is then........

Yes, those were the ones I had in mind in my above posting.

 

[HowardGWR]

A single line might allow retention of the cycle path across the viaducts and to the east of the council offices, but I doubt it, unless very secure fencing-off of the path were approved. It has been done at the Avon Valley Railway at Bitton, for instance. An eventual double track would demand cycle path closure. I think the issue with the location of the station is similar to the one at Okehampton. The present site is way up out of the town but might nevertheless be preferred for tourist visitors. For commuters from Tavistock, the proposed site on the western edge would probably be preferable to most Tavistock area residents, as there is adequate parking space possible there.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

You got no chance of reinstating the old station, there has just been to much built in the area. One the track bed on the East side of Tavistock Viaduct there looks to be at least 5 - 6 houses as you come off the viaduct, some strange barn building, another 2 houses and of course the council offices.

Whether or not they will buy back these properties (which will be expensive of course) or they will re route the line around the north side of the city, i don't know. Does anyone know if anyone know if Tavistock Viaduct is still in good condition and is capable of taking a 450 tonne IET should it need to?

I know the current proposal is to reinstate the line only to Tavistock and then consider the Tavistock to Okehampton route at a later date. Does anyone know if Meldon Viaduct is listed and whether or not it could be demolished to make way for a new one as it is a pretty sorry state and it has already been officially announced that it is to far gone to be saved.

 

[yorksrob]

You got no chance of reinstating the old station, there has just been to much built in the area. One the track bed on the East side of Tavistock Viaduct there looks to be at least 5 - 6 houses as you come off the viaduct, some strange barn building, another 2 houses and of course the council offices.

Whether or not they will buy back these properties (which will be expensive of course) or they will re route the line around the north side of the city, i don't know. Does anyone know if anyone know if Tavistock Viaduct is still in good condition and is capable of taking a 450 tonne IET should it need to?

I know the current proposal is to reinstate the line only to Tavistock and then consider the Tavistock to Okehampton route at a later date. Does anyone know if Meldon Viaduct is listed and whether or not it could be demolished to make way for a new one as it is a pretty sorry state and it has already been officially announced that it is to far gone to be saved.

Regardless of the state of Meldon viaduct, a new one could be built comparatively easily alongside, given the lack of development around it.

I'd be interested to know why the L&SWR didn't go for masonry in the first place as the meccano design seems to have been more problematic over the years.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Regardless of the state of Meldon viaduct, a new one could be built comparatively easily alongside, given the lack of development around it.

I'd be interested to know why the L&SWR didn't go for masonry in the first place as the meccano design seems to have been more problematic over the years.

Cost, speedier build process, I don't know. Wonder how much that new bridge would cost and what design they would go for.

 

[edwin_m]

Regardless of the state of Meldon viaduct, a new one could be built comparatively easily alongside, given the lack of development around it.

I'd be interested to know why the L&SWR didn't go for masonry in the first place as the meccano design seems to have been more problematic over the years.

Possible this was something to do with the ground being unable to bear the weight? In which case a new structure would most likely have the same issue. I don't know the history or the area well enough to know, but if Tavistock or other masonry viaducts were built as part of the same construction project then it suggests some problem unique to Meldon.

There might also be concerns about affecting the visual setting of the existing structure.

 

[yorksrob]

Cost, speedier build process, I don't know. Wonder how much that new bridge would cost and what design they would go for.

Possible this was something to do with the ground being unable to bear the weight? In which case a new structure would most likely have the same issue. I don't know the history or the area well enough to know, but if Tavistock or other masonry viaducts were built as part of the same construction project then it suggests some problem unique to Meldon.

There might also be concerns about affecting the visual setting of the existing structure.

Perhaps.

One would have thought that the rock would be stable granite, being on the edge of Dartmoor, but its difficult to tell.

The other viaducts on the route are all masonry.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Perhaps.

One would have thought that the rock would be stable granite, being on the edge of Dartmoor, but its difficult to tell.

The other viaducts on the route are all masonry.

I have read something about the type of granite found in the Meldon area being rather unique in relation to that which is commonly found on other parts of Dartmoor, if I can locate the book where I read it I'll see if there is any more detail to be learned.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Possible this was something to do with the ground being unable to bear the weight? In which case a new structure would most likely have the same issue. I don't know the history or the area well enough to know, but if Tavistock or other masonry viaducts were built as part of the same construction project then it suggests some problem unique to Meldon.

There might also be concerns about affecting the visual setting of the existing structure.

Perhaps.

One would have thought that the rock would be stable granite, being on the edge of Dartmoor, but its difficult to tell.

The other viaducts on the route are all masonry.

Yes, you would of though so wouldn’t you. Although the viaduct is over a bog. It’s a small stream/soakaway that is presumably water saturated.

 

[yorksrob]

I have read something about the type of granite found in the Meldon area being rather unique in relation to that which is commonly found on other parts of Dartmoor, if I can locate the book where I read it I'll see if there is any more detail to be learned.

Yes, you would of though so wouldn’t you. Although the viaduct is over a bog. It’s a small stream/soakaway that is presumably water saturated.

Thanks - any further information would be interesting.

If you visit the local museum in Settle, it has some engineers models of some proposals that BR developed to replace Ribblehead Viaduct. One of these was a very large single girder steel/concrete bridge.

If there really wasn't any other alternative, I wonder if such an approach could be taken here.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Thanks - any further information would be interesting.

If you visit the local museum in Settle, it has some engineers models of some proposals that BR developed to replace Ribblehead Viaduct. One of these was a very large single girder steel/concrete bridge.

If there really wasn't any other alternative, I wonder if such an approach could be taken here.

That's interesting, I'd have to say I'm glad that proposal for Ribblehead didn't come off though!

Getting back to Meldon, because of the fortunate way it is situated I'm somewhat sure that a replacement structure could sit reasonably discretely alongside the downside of the current structure without changing the appearance to much when viewed from the Northwestern side, having said that the view from there seems to be getting more and more obscured by trees these days so perhaps it's not so important anyway?

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks - any further information would be interesting.

If you visit the local museum in Settle, it has some engineers models of some proposals that BR developed to replace Ribblehead Viaduct. One of these was a very large single girder steel/concrete bridge.

If there really wasn't any other alternative, I wonder if such an approach could be taken here.

Settle might be a good place to learn about ground conditions...

I would think a new viaduct parallel to Meldon would have to be "sympathetic" to the existing structure.

Are/were there any other metal viaducts on the former LSWR route west of Exeter? The crossing of the Tavy estuary south of Bere Ferrers is metal, as I think was at least one viaduct on the former section east of St Budeaux. But between those and Meldon are the masonry viaducts at Shillamill and Tavistock, so I don't think we can conclude that the builders adopted metal construction as standard.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

St Budeaux to Lydford and Lydford to Okehampton were built seperately.

The former was built (1888-90) as a high-quality double track main-line thanks to the deep pockets of the Duke of Bedford, who redeveloped the centre of Tavistock at the same time. Recent structural surveys have shown all the structures to be in excellent condition (and nearly all still in place). There are two low steel bridges over the Tavy and Tamerton Estuaries where masonry would not have been appropriate.

The latter was built earlier (1874) initially as single track - Meldon Viaduct is actually two structures inter-twinned. I think height was the deciding factor here, plus lower capital cost rather than any instability issues. It is a scheduled monument so cannot be demolished. It was last repainted in the early 1990s, and was strengthened in 1960 to take rebuilt WC / BB locos. Network Rail stated in the report produced after the Dawlish debacle that a new structure would be required alongside.

West Devon Borough Council share services with South Hams Council (it was intended as prelude to merger, but this has been stopped), but there is plenty of accomodation available to relocate deparments should the railway be reinstated.