Any news on proposals to build an alternative route between Exeter & Plymouth?

[30907]

Sorry but that's a daft idea moving the railway into the sea (not literally, but as regards the proposals) - Dawlish is one of the easiest seasides and places to access as the station and beach is either side of the mainline.

All that Network Rail need to do is make the wall a bit higher.

Which is what they are doing at Dawlish ATM.
The report refers to Holcombe Beach - the Teignmouth sea wall from Parsons Tunnel towards the town - and the problem is the cliff face not the sea. Hence the solution proposed some time back.
(Which I imagine has already been discussed on here, among all the related "Dawlish" issues?)

 

[Llanigraham]

NImbyism at it's most obvious.

 

[class26]

Sorry but that's a daft idea moving the railway into the sea (not literally, but as regards the proposals) - Dawlish is one of the easiest seasides and places to access as the station and beach is either side of the mainline.

All that Network Rail need to do is make the wall a bit higher.

They are moving the railway AWAY from the cliffs as they are as big a threat as the sea

 

[duncanp]

That may be so, but my point is that the particular group of people linked in your OP may not care at all about whether the railway survives

.

I suspect that the interests of most of Devon and Cornwall would prevail over the wishes of a few hundred residents on that stretch of beach. Particularly in these environmentally conscious times. If the main line linking Devon and Cornwall to the rest of the country was closed, then that would lead to a huge increase in traffic on roads which are already congested.

 

[LMS 4F]

What has become of the idea to reopen the LSWR route via Okehampto? Is this now dead and a cheaper option is being touted?

 

[class26]

What has become of the idea to reopen the LSWR route via Okehampto? Is this now dead and a cheaper option is being touted?

Effectively dead and filed in the same draw as many, many other consultant reports I would think unless anyone knows better ?

 

[MarkyT]

If anyone's in doubt about the threat the cliffs could represent, the collapse at Odicombe beach, Torquay, shows the scale a major fall can achieve in similar material.
https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/story/2013-04-04/little-oddicombe-landslide/

Little Oddicombe landslide
Half a house has been destroyed in a landslide at Little Oddicombe in Torbay, which has also turned the sea red. Geologists are warning that further landslips are likely

 

[swt_passenger]

I reckon NR already have the local authorities onside with this work. The agreement for the Dawlish work (raising the sea wall) didn’t seem that difficult to obtain in the end, and that affected views from quite a few local properties.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

If anyone's in doubt about the threat the cliffs could represent, the collapse at Odicombe beach, Torquay, shows the scale a major fall can achieve in similar material.
https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/story/2013-04-04/little-oddicombe-landslide/

Excellent point - look at what happened back in June with 2 EMT (now EMR) HST's.

I remember back in June 2016 at Didcot Parkway noticing the 16:47 London Paddington service (HST) indicating an hour and 52 minute delay because of a landslide.

So if rails away from the cliff mean better reliability in wet weather then that's good!

 

[Right Away]

For those that like their geology, this is an interesting study of the Dawlish to Teignmouth route.

http://www.southampton.ac.uk/~imw/Teignmouth-Dawlish.htm

 

[swt_passenger]

Effectively dead and filed in the same draw as many, many other consultant reports I would think unless anyone knows better ?

I think that’s a given. Back in post #984 of this thread I surmised that it was dead.

The way NR were and still are explaining the probable costs and the phased nature of the work along the existing coastal route, it seems to make it highly unlikely they’re also planning for an inland upgrade...

 

[LMS 4F]

I travelled the route via Okehampton in the 1960s as a boy soldier. My recollection was of a not very interesting journey which seemed to go on for ever. Our journey was Templecombe to Plymouth having used the Sometset and Dorset to get from Poole to Templecombe. At the time I didn't realise how fortunate I was to travel these routes which have almost certainly gone forever.

 

[AndrewE]

The way NR were and still are explaining the probable costs and the phased nature of the work along the existing coastal route, it seems to make it highly unlikely they’re also planning for an inland upgrade...

The curse of the not-invented-here syndrome strikes again.
Thankfully it seems that a variety of local authorities want it to happen, and if transport planning ever gets done again in the UK (maybe as a response to the need to reduce road traffic and carbon dioxide emissions) I am sure we shall see it re-opened - hopefully within my lifetime! I wouldn't guarantee the survival of the railway past Dawlish though...

 

[yorksrob]

I travelled the route via Okehampton in the 1960s as a boy soldier. My recollection was of a not very interesting journey which seemed to go on for ever. Our journey was Templecombe to Plymouth having used the Sometset and Dorset to get from Poole to Templecombe. At the time I didn't realise how fortunate I was to travel these routes which have almost certainly gone forever.

I am very jelous on both counts.

 

[swt_passenger]

The curse of the not-invented-here syndrome strikes again.
Thankfully it seems that a variety of local authorities want it to happen, and if transport planning ever gets done again in the UK (maybe as a response to the need to reduce road traffic and carbon dioxide emissions) I am sure we shall see it re-opened - hopefully within my lifetime! I wouldn't guarantee the survival of the railway past Dawlish though...

Well I’ll carry on thinking you’ve got that completely the wrong way round. They will maintain the coastal route only, within the next 20 or 30 years...

 

[Busaholic]

Well I’ll carry on thinking you’ve got that completely the wrong way round. They will maintain the coastal route only, within the next 20 or 30 years...

You're assuming that part of the coast will still be extant in 20 or 30 years- I have strong doubts about that. Much more likely that Cornwall and Plymouth will have lost all rail links to the outside world by that time. And still they'll be voting Tory!!

 

[ashkeba]

Is there much obstacle to reopening the Chudleigh route except for the thief stretch of A38?

 

[MarkyT]

Is there much obstacle to reopening the Chudleigh route except for the thief stretch of A38?

A long slow, single track alignment, twisting and turning wildly to follow a river valley, susceptible to flooding, having a partial tunnel collapse, and built over by a major dual carriageway. Better to dig a long, new, straight tunnel under the Haldon hills, though one might use the rough alignment of the old branch and junctions near its extremities to tie in to existing tracks approaching Exeter and Newton Abbot. That could shorten the distance by about five miles compared to the coast line and improve maximum speeds markedly, possibly nearly halving the sectional time for expresses over this segment. The coast route would remain in use for local stopping trains (and steam excursions probably), which is why it's important to do this sea wall and cliff protection work to safeguard it for the long term, whatever else happens later.

 

[Bald Rick]

You're assuming that part of the coast will still be extant in 20 or 30 years- I have strong doubts about that. Much more likely that Cornwall and Plymouth will have lost all rail links to the outside world by that time. And still they'll be voting Tory!!

Given the engineering that was put in to the rebuilding work at Dawlish 5 years ago, and all subsequent work done, and that planned, even if the rest of south Devon is abandoned to Neptune that railway will still be there.

 

[The Ham]

You're assuming that part of the coast will still be extant in 20 or 30 years- I have strong doubts about that. Much more likely that Cornwall and Plymouth will have lost all rail links to the outside world by that time. And still they'll be voting Tory!!

Whether or not the sea will have taken out the Dawlish route is kind of immaterial, the thing which is likely to lead to an alternative route being built is that passenger growth could fairly easily double over the next 20 to 30 years.

Whilst longer XC, semi fast GWR and Local GWR services will all aid with that there'll be a need for an additional line at some point.

Add in that Crossrail 2 will create paths from Waterloo which otherwise will be relatively limited as to where they could go other than down the WofE line, as well as improving long distance travel between the South (not so much the South East) and South West, there starts to be a case for building the Okehampton route.

The problem with the DAL (Dawlish Avoiding Line) is that you still have the capacity issues with between Paddington and Reading to deal with.

As people become more environmentally friendly chances are rail travel will continue to grow (currently rail as a whole is 5 times better in terms of emissions than driving) possibly quite quickly over the next 10-15 years whilst electric cars become more mainstream and there's still uncertainty over if driverless cars are likely to become more widely used. Although once driverless cars do start to appear their costs are likely to be comparable to taxis and so trains will win out on cost grounds for longer journeys.

It should also be noted that once there starts to be much of an uptake of pure electric cars then petrol stations could start to shut down relatively quickly as they start to become less viable. Especially local ones which could speed up the move to electric cars (why would you own a petrol car as a run around if you've got to drive 5 miles each way just to get fuel?).

Even hybrid cars will reduce the amount of fuel being used and so mean a petrol station can support a larger population than they do currently.

Also add in more people walking and cycling short distances and it wouldn't take much for the number of petrol stations to drop by 10% or even 20%. Especially given that market share for plug in electric cars surpassed 2.5% of new registrations in 2018 and with the likes of VW even having plans for electric camper vans within the next few years.

The petrol/diesel car is likely to be something that children now will remember as one of those things that happened in their childhood the same way that some now think of VHS or CD's.

 

[randyrippley]

I travelled the route via Okehampton in the 1960s as a boy soldier. My recollection was of a not very interesting journey which seemed to go on for ever. Our journey was Templecombe to Plymouth having used the Sometset and Dorset to get from Poole to Templecombe. At the time I didn't realise how fortunate I was to travel these routes which have almost certainly gone forever.

Poole to Plymouth sounds more like a Royal Marine's trip than Army

 

[edwin_m]

Add in that Crossrail 2 will create paths from Waterloo which otherwise will be relatively limited as to where they could go other than down the WofE line, as well as improving long distance travel between the South (not so much the South East) and South West, there starts to be a case for building the Okehampton route.

The problem with the DAL (Dawlish Avoiding Line) is that you still have the capacity issues with between Paddington and Reading to deal with.

I'm fairly sure those paths out of Waterloo earmarked for other services as part of the justification for Crossrail 2. Even if they are available for service via Exeter they could easily head west via a DAL which would have a lot more capacity than today's route. Assuming they will go via Okehampton is perpetuating the transport patterns of the early 20th century.

To my mind the scope to build Okehampton-Tavistock depends mainly on the demand for rail travel to/from the places on the route, with diversionary use a fairly minor benefit (and the need to run a full diversionary service pushing up the cost significantly). This has to be set against the higher costs and different benefits of a DAL, and the lower cost but lower benefit of relying on the existing route. The Okehampton, like the current one, would be slower than the road journey if railheading at Tiverton Parkway.

 

[Meerkat]

As the coast route can not politically be closed, and is having massive spending thrown at it, I just can’t see it being justifiable to build an avoiding line.
If the money is available for higher speed, highly engineered, new route it would be better spent straightening out Newton Abbot to Plymouth.

 

[LMS 4F]

Poole to Plymouth sounds more like a Royal Marine's trip than Army

We were based at Bovington and went for Adventure training on Dartmoor. The camp we used at Wembury outside Plymouth was I believe once used by the Marines. It was certainly Spartan enough. Incidentally we made the trip 3 times a year.
Bovington was near Wool station where we were easily the biggest users, including a special to Waterloo every time we went on Leave en masse.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm fairly sure those paths out of Waterloo earmarked for other services as part of the justification for Crossrail 2. Even if they are available for service via Exeter they could easily head west via a DAL which would have a lot more capacity than today's route. Assuming they will go via Okehampton is perpetuating the transport patterns of the early 20th century...

I think The Ham is the only person who seriously believes Crossrail 2 (and Heathrow Southern access?) will somehow lead to a surplus of train paths that can only be used up by random extensions via Salisbury. I’m pretty sure that’s not how the Wessex route study predicts things, it suggests significantly more trains heading in the Southampton or Portsmouth directions, but nothing much happening via Salisbury. It’s pure speculation at this stage.

 

[MarkyT]

Having an additional fast pair much of the way between Exeter and Newton Abbot would have very clear capacity benefits because the section hosts a regular all stations stopping service that operators would like to increase to a 2tph all day as well as much quicker expresses. The express services currently take around half the time of a stopper, so are constantly catching up. Trains can overtake at Dawlish Warren but that adds about 8 minutes to the local stopper schedule and it's still all very fragile. Without overtaking at Dawlish Warren, the maximum capacity today is two stoppers per hour and two flights of fast trains between them of up to two or three very closely spaced expresses. 15 minute service on both tiers cannot work without overtaking. With separate express (DAL) and local (coast) pairs the service could be increased dramatically if desired with (say) up to 12 TPH on each tier easily (not that I'm advocating that level is neccessary!) but the operation would be considerably less fragile and there would be much more flexibiilty in service planning and real time regulating.
http://www.townend.me/files/exeter-newton abbot.pdf

 

[The Ham]

I think The Ham is the only person who seriously believes Crossrail 2 (and Heathrow Southern access?) will somehow lead to a surplus of train paths that can only be used up by random extensions via Salisbury. I’m pretty sure that’s not how the Wessex route study predicts things, it suggests significantly more trains heading in the Southampton or Portsmouth directions, but nothing much happening via Salisbury. It’s pure speculation at this stage.

The Wessex route does talk of extra services to Salisbury, but there's (in comparison to other locations) relatively little works needed to increase capacity.

Through Woking with Crossrail 2 and the Southern Approach to Heathrow there'll be an extra 11tph. That'll take Woking to Guildford to 6tph before you add any extra Crossrail 2 services it'll also mean 4tph turning around at Basingstoke (again before Crossrail 2 service increases), all of which could make getting more trains to Southampton and Portsmouth more difficult.

Clearly there'll be more services to the South Coast, however probably not enough to fill all the services available.

Now at to that the desire for more London to West Country capacity and where would you look to provide it? Building a new line from London or upgrading the WofE line?

 

[edwin_m]

The Wessex route dude tattoos

That deserves some kind of prize for creative use of predictive text!

Now at to that the desire for more London to West Country capacity and where would you look to provide it? Building a new line from London or upgrading the WofE line?

​

Put on a set of decent semi-fasts Paddington to Reading and dedicate the Intercity services to people making longer journeys, rather than them carrying fresh air further west.

 

[The Ham]

Put on a set of decent semi-fasts Paddington to Reading and dedicate the Intercity services to people making longer journeys, rather than them carrying fresh air further west.

In what paths? That's the problem there's no more paths available.

Even if you could do that, you're still looking at there not being 1/2 full trains, so if demand doubled (which it could easily do over the next 20 to 30 years, whilst Crossrail 2 is likely to be 15 years away).

Even with the advent of the Exeter semi fast, all that'll do is increase demand faster. It also doesn't take into account the doubling of demand on the WofE as well. Which would likely justify 2tph to Exeter as soon as it's possible (most of the time I've used the services they are already fairly well used along most of not all of their length).

Therefore creating a third service an hour probably would have enough demand to justify its existence in the same sort of timeframe (circa 30 years).

If you are running those sorts of frequencies (4 or 5 tph to Exeter from London/South) then you're going to want to be considering extra services to Plymouth as well.

The existing line won't have the capacity for more fast services, the DAL would be facing the wrong way for the WofE line services (as well as being very expensive for not a lot of extra gain).

The Okehampton route is cheaper, allows an easy extension of the WofE line services, speeds up journey times from the South (places like Brighton, Woking, Southampton, Weymouth) to Plymouth, connects Okehampton to the rail network and provides Tavistock with a better link to places other than Plymouth & Cornwall.

It's it needed right now? No other than as an insurance policy for the main line.

Does that mean that it wouldn't be useful in the future? No, and so it should be filed as a hero an eye on what's happening project, so that when there's extra paths available there's a plan as to how they could be used. Especially to bring benefit from what would otherwise be a fairly London centric project (Crossrail 2) to the wider country (well at least the South West).

 

[83A]

First, well second post for me. Dusting off this thread as it seems the locals have the pitchforks out at the threat of losing their beach. I spotted it on Facebook and they have a URL as well: https://www.savethebeach.co.uk/