Anytime Standard to Off-Peak First (zero fare excess issues)

[premier01]

I have just been stung for an excess of £69.50 to upgrade on the train to first class.

I have an Anytime Standard Single London to Preston ticket priced £ 175.50

I aksked at London Paddington station to upgrade this so I could
use the 1st class lounge at Euston prior to boarding the 19.30 service and the ticket sales advisor confirmed the cost would be £ 140 for a First Off-Peak and therefore £ 0.00 excess as exactly expected.

He even showed me the screen but said the system was unable to issue zero excess tickets and to upgrade on board.

I have done this before twice without problem but was just disappointed about not been able to use the lounge.

The TM however was adamant that only walk- up Anytime Firsts could be sold or excessed to.

Should I write in for a refund as my understanding is the excess fare should be to the appropriate fare valid at time of travel?

I feel the TM was of the opinion I was gaining out of this but of course I have already paid £ 175.50


So can anyone

- advise if have a case

- link the relevat part of the excess fares process as I can't seem to find this

Thanks,

Premier01

 

[Bletchleyite]

This zero excess thing is an absolute nuisance, there is no reason the railway should not put in place a system to make them able to be issued. It used to be a case of de-facto accepting it as it's the same fare, but this no longer works in most places.

On board you are only entitled to Anytime fares if you walked past an open ticket office to board, AIUI, unless the only reason for non-validity is a time restriction.

Therein lies the conflict.

FWIW, another thing you could have done before boarding is to purchase a new First Off Peak Single and refund the Anytime less £10. That, provided you could stand the period of time of being out of pocket, would be your cheapest option in this case! Though I wonder if this is a case of a company bought ticket with a no First Class policy?

 

[ainsworth74]

On board you are only entitled to Anytime fares if you walked past an open ticket office to board, AIUI, unless the only reason for non-validity is a time restriction.

Excesses can be a bit tricky as quite a few of them can be purchased on board with no penalty (i.e. full range of tickets should be available to be excessed to) and I believe excessing from Standard to First is one of them (obviously apart from Penalty Fare areas).

 

[horizonflame]

Did you take a seat in First Class and wait for the Train Manager to pass through, or did you approach the Train Manager before boarding or see him on the train before departure? If you did the former then you have no rights to excess your ticket onboard and the TM actually used his discretion to charge you the excess to the Anytime First Single fare. If you approached him before the train departed you would have an argument you had been given authority for first class travel and should have been excessed to the cheapest appropriate fare when he checked tickets.

Another thought, did you visit Euston ticket office at all? If you were refused there, that may be another valid argument. However, Virgin won't accept about your visit to the Paddington ticket office as this is a different station and TOC.

 

[premier01]

Thanks for the insight, I read the excess process to not take into account whether or not there was an opportunity to buy before boarding or not in the case of excessing from standard to 1st as in the case of other excesses where this applies?

What about boarding the train without any ticket? Could I have purchased an off-peak standard or 1st ticket or only an Anytime ticket? I have certainly purchased off peak tickets on the train many times on non PF TOCs although ofte refused Two Together railcard discounts on VT hence why always make point to purchase before boarding 99% of cases.

I have should have tried Euston ticket sales in hindsight but I think the route problem here is refusal of Paddington ticket sales to excess the ticket which I think is out of order.

I will eventually get compensated through work disbursement process but some 5 weeks away so I am minded to write to both GWR and VT and see what happens.

 

[ainsworth74]

If you did the former then you have no rights to excess your ticket onboard and the TM actually used his discretion to charge you the excess to the Anytime First Single fare.

No, if you hold a walk up ticket (such as an Anytime Single) you pay the difference between the fare held and the appropriate fare (such an First Off-Peak Single).

 

[ainsworth74]

I read the excess process to not take into account whether or not there was an opportunity to buy before boarding or not in the case of excessing from standard to 1st as in the case of other excesses where this applies?

You are correct. There is no penalty to buying a Standard to First excess on board whether or not there was the opportunity buy before hand (PF areas excluded).

What about boarding the train without any ticket? Could I have purchased an off-peak standard or 1st ticket or only an Anytime ticket?

If you boarded at Euston you would have only been able to buy an Anytime ticket (with no discounts). If you boarded at a station where there were no ticket issuing facilities you would be able to by the full range of fares on board (with the full range of discounts).

 

[Starmill]

If the ticket office at London Euston was open and you didn't speak to them, and you did not have permission to be in First Class then I think you were potentially at risk of being prosecuted. Of course, this is rather unlikely - especially on VT. The ticket office could have issued you the excess for £0.10 which would have solved the problem, although perhaps they've been instructed not to do this or their particular TIS won't allow them to enter the excess manually in that situation. Helpfully Virgin Trains make no information available on their website about upgrading to First on weekdays.

If you had visited the Euston ticket office and they had given you permission to sit in First, then you would be in the clear. If you had visited them and they refused to sell you the excess, then I would argue this is could be considered that you had no oppourtunity to pay, and as such you must be offered the full range of tickets on the train, and you would have a potentially strong defence against demands for payment for new tickets or threats of prosecution. It really is in your interest to speak to the ticket office.

 

[horizonflame]

You are correct. There is no penalty to buying a Standard to First excess on board whether or not there was the opportunity buy before hand (PF areas excluded).

That's misleading advice to the OP. Being a non-PF station/journey does not give a passenger with a standard class ticket the right to sit in First Class and pay when approached by the Train Manager. Admittedly unlikely with Virgin for PR reasons, the OP could be reported for prosecution or issued an UFN. The only exception I can see to this is TOCs which have policies that grant this right to passengers such as Grand Central who allow buy-on-board.

 

[ainsworth74]

That is not what the Internal Knowledge Base says.

 

[Starmill]

The Manual in 2010 had this to say under Excess Fares Procedures > Transfer to First Class Accomodation:

First Class travel with a Standard Class ticket (Excess paid on board the train where there was “opportunity to buy” before boarding)

• 
  
  
  • Single and Return tickets - charge the difference between the fare paid and appropriate fare for the journey being made. Holders of Railcards giving discounts on First Class travel are eligible for discounted fares, only if original tickets were discounted.
  • Season Tickets and Travelcard Seasons - charge the full First Class Single fare for the journey being made as if no ticket held.
  • Rovers, Rangers, BritRail – charge the difference between the appropriate Standard Class and the appropriate First Class fare for the journey being made. Holders of Railcards giving discounts on First Class travel are eligible for discounted fares, only if original tickets were discounted.

Single Tickets
Anytime / Anytime Day Single
Off-Peak / Off-Peak Day Single
Super Off-Peak / Super Off-Peak Day Single

Charge the difference between the fare already paid and the appropriate First Single fare for the journey

I am informed this has not changed since.

It's a non-public document though so I would not rely on it as a defense against Byelaw 19:

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

Being in a Penalty Fare area or not changes nothing except whether or not a Penalty Fare could be issued.

 

[yorkie]

That's misleading advice to the OP. Being a non-PF station/journey does not give a passenger with a standard class ticket the right to sit in First Class and pay when approached by the Train Manager. Admittedly unlikely with Virgin for PR reasons, the OP could be reported for prosecution or issued an UFN. The only exception I can see to this is TOCs which have policies that grant this right to passengers such as Grand Central who allow buy-on-board.

Source?

...I asked at London Paddington station to upgrade this so I could
use the 1st class lounge at Euston prior to boarding the 19.30 service and the ticket sales advisor confirmed the cost would be £ 140 for a First Off-Peak and therefore £ 0.00 excess as exactly expected.

He even showed me the screen....

....The TM however was adamant that only walk- up Anytime Firsts could be sold or excessed to...

Paddington station was correct.

The Virgin TM was incorrect. This seems to be happening a lot with Virgin recently. Their job description and publicity material is completely at odds with the behaviour with several of their staff.

 

[maniacmartin]

It always used to be the case that excessing from Standard to First was allowed on board at the same price it would be in a station. However the new National Rail Conditions of Travel section 15.5 appears to now deny this option. I believe that this is a change from the previous NRCoC that slipped through unnoticed by many on this forum.

If you had any way of proving what was said at the ticket office, then this would help your case immensely, but I am guessing you don’t sadly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Paddington station was correct.

Sort of. There is a "thing" about not issuing zero fare excesses (and always has been), but there shouldn't be. They are more important now revenue protection is more absolute and "it was the same price" is no longer an excuse.

 

[yorkie]

Sort of. There is a "thing" about not issuing zero fare excesses (and always has been), but there shouldn't be. They are more important now revenue protection is more absolute and "it was the same price" is no longer an excuse.

I was purely referring to the cost of the excess, not their inability to issue it. I agree there shouldn't be an excuse and no company should have such a policy.

It always used to be the case that excessing from Standard to First was allowed on board at the same price it would be in a station. However the new National Rail Conditions of Travel section 15.5 appears to now deny this option. I believe that this is a change from the previous NRCoC that slipped through unnoticed by many on this forum.

If that was a material change, it would have had to be explicitly approved by the DfT. Perhaps someone would like to ask DfT if it was?

In any case, the NRCoT is worded harshly in places to take into account the worst possible scenario on certain train companies (eg. where Penalty Fares apply).

Virgin do allow upgrades on board:
https://twitter.com/VirginTrains/status/936324333156339713

It's the difference between your ticket and the first class ticket for today, staff onboard can advise prices. ^PA

https://twitter.com/VirginTrains/status/935907580047699969

You can upgrade on the train or at the booking office. ^PA

https://twitter.com/VirginTrains/status/925726055482253313

By all means sit there, just pay the upgrade fee when they check tickets. ^PA

Some of their TMs simply refuse to adhere to the company's own policies and job description. I've seen numerous examples recently, in a range of scenarios.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

My understanding is the appropriate fair is the first open fare not the saver first.
If the passenger had a svs then I believe he would have been offered the saver first.

If a pax buys a anytime ticket and chooses not to travel in the peak that’s their choice, they shouldn’t get a free upgrade to first because a cheaper option was available before travel.

This has been discussed internally and the conclusion reached was the above.


Paul

 

[Bletchleyite]

The cheapest thing to do in this specific case would be to refund less £10 and issue a new First Off Peak, subject to the customer being able to stand being out of pocket until the refund was processed. I wonder was that option suggested to the customer? I bet a lot of people don't know walk-ups are all refundable less £10.

Might have been an issue if it was a company purchased ticket and the company had an "absolutely no first class" policy.

 

[yorkie]

My understanding is the appropriate fair is the first open fare not the saver first.

The term "appropriate fare" means the lowest priced fare that would be valid.

If the passenger had a svs then I believe he would have been offered the saver first.

An excess to the appropriate fare does not mean the ticket type can't change.

This is in contrast to where the "full fare" applies, where the ticket type becomes Anytime (if it isn't already).

If a pax buys a anytime ticket and chooses not to travel in the peak that’s their choice, they shouldn’t get a free upgrade to first because a cheaper option was available before travel

It is absurd to suggest that the correct excess is £69.50 and it should not be cheaper to obtain a refund & a new ticket than an excess. A pragmatic approach would clearly to be to excess to the appropriate fare.

This has been discussed internally and the conclusion reached was the above.

Internally by the same people who got the Tyne & Wear inter-availability wrong? That does not fill me with confidence!

 

[Westcoast-ting]

I think it says appropriate as it’s the lowest price fare for the journey taking into account the ticket presented.

If you present a svs the appropriate fare is the Fss

If you present a SOS then it’s a FOS

Is it not a case of interpretation ? You would like it to mean that but virgin wouldn’t ?

Paul

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I've heard in the past was that you could only change one thing about a ticket at a time, which would back up Westcoast-ting's reply. However, I haven't heard this recently, and I'm sure I do recall Yorkie posting internal guidance that said this wasn't the case and a change can just be done in one go i.e. not having to change class first then ticket type, or ticket type first then class.

Ticketing is regulated nationally. It doesn't matter what Virgin want it to be, it matters what the national rules, defined by RDG, actually say.

 

[yorkie]

I think it says appropriate as it’s the lowest price fare for the journey taking into account the ticket presented.

If you present a svs the appropriate fare is the Fss

If you present a SOS then it’s a FOS

Is it not a case of interpretation ? You would like it to mean that but virgin wouldn’t ?

Paul

That is not what "appropriate fare" means. If the excess has to be to Anytime, then the wording used is "full fare".

See this post regarding change of route excess, which is also to the appropriate fare, which includes an example.

 

[yorkie]

One thing I've heard in the past was that you could only change one thing about a ticket at a time, which would back up Westcoast-ting's reply.

This is not the case.

However, I haven't heard this recently, and I'm sure I do recall Yorkie posting internal guidance that said this wasn't the case and a change can just be done in one go i.e. not having to change class first then ticket type, or ticket type first then class.

It's a complete myth; where an excess is changing class of travel or route, and is to the "appropriate" fare, that means the ticket type is whatever the lowest priced that would be valid. So yes the ticket type can change and it should be done as one excess.

It's not a difficult concept to grasp: identify the cheapest fare that would be valid, then take from that the amount already paid.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think it says appropriate as it’s the lowest price fare for the journey taking into account the ticket presented.

If you present a svs the appropriate fare is the Fss

If you present a SOS then it’s a FOS

Is it not a case of interpretation ? You would like it to mean that but virgin wouldn’t ?

Paul

Makes no sense. What if you present a Super Off Peak Return and there’s no First Super Off Peak Return? What then? You’ll have to concede it doesn’t have to be the same ticket type.

I agree broadly with @yorkie in this thread.

 

[Starmill]

My understanding is the appropriate fair is the first open fare not the saver first.

The appropriate fare for the 1930 is the First Off-Peak Single (and if the passenger had a railcard or other discount, that would be taken into account. The full fare is the First Anytime Single. The standard ticket type is not important - the price is.

If you present a svs the appropriate fare is the Fss

Not if you are travelling at a time when the First Off-Peak Single isn't valid.

 

[Starmill]

If you present a SOS then it’s a FOS

Only if you are travelling at a time when the First Off-Peak Single isn't valid.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Your opinion of the appropriate fare is the fare due for that train. Vt’s opinion is the appropriate fare for the train retaining the flexibility of the original ticket.

Being honest I’m looking for a reason to justify doing a zero fair excess, and then being able to argue it with my manger, if I say YORKIE told me to do they may not take me seriously.

From a policy point of view, the customer should apply for a refund on the standard ticket and purchase the off peak first. This is what we’re told to advise.

Paul

 

[Starmill]

Your opinion of the appropriate fare is the fare due for that train. Vt’s opinion is the appropriate fare for the train retaining the flexibility of the original ticket.

My opinion has nothing to do with it. That's what 'appropriate' means. It's as distinct from 'full'.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

My opinion has nothing to do with it. That's what 'appropriate' means. It's as distinct from 'full'.

If that was the case then why is vt’s understanding different to yours ??

 

[Bletchleyite]

Being honest I’m looking for a reason to justify doing a zero fair excess, and then being able to argue it with my manger, if I say YORKIE told me to do they may not take me seriously.

And herein lies the (management) problem. A zero fare excess is an excess. If the difference between the fares is £0.00 it should be issued. There should be no additional justification or reasoning required - it is a simple transaction based on fact, the fact being that the "target" ticket is the same price or cheaper than the original.

It wasn't an issue in the days when it would, for example, be OK to travel to Bletchley on a southbound ticket printed to Milton Keynes Central because the fare is the same. These days that'll get you a PF if it's LM (and they bother to show up), or prosecution or an 80 quid special or a prosecution from Northern. Therefore it matters hugely.

If not charging for excesses is *that* much of an issue why doesn't the railway impose a minimum excess fare of £1 or something?

From a policy point of view, the customer should apply for a refund on the standard ticket and purchase the off peak first. This is what we’re told to advise.

If it's an option that's the best in this case as I said, as with the ticket being more than £10 cheaper it will mean the passenger gets some money back. But there are reasons that may not work, e.g. the passenger does not have the funds to wait for the refund while having paid out for the new fare.

Here's an example that might have confused matters, though - the passenger presents with *the return half of an Anytime Return* and wishes to excess to 1st - then it's be a 1st Anytime as there's no way to know the outbound wasn't used at peak time, indeed it is almost certain that it would have been as why otherwise would it even have been purchased?

 

[premier01]

This seems to have generated some interesting exchanges!

Key thoughts-

- Is there an extract from the fares guide that makes it clear what the defintion of appropriate fare is?

- Zero excess.. I have been issued zero excesses dozens of times, when a £ 10 admin fee is involved staff seem quick to oblige but when it appears owt for nowt they seem to say no!

- Upgrading to 1st on the train- this is common place on VT and TPE- nearly 50 % of my trips there's often an overheard conversation along the lines of

- tickets and paases please
- ah you want to upgrade Sir?
- yes please
- sure
- tap tap.. £ xyz please...

usually business travellers flashing corporate card but you get the idea... prosecution suggestion was just plain ridiculous and insulting. It was the TM that ushered me to a seat as it was so busy so knew she was on way round

So we'll see what happens with response to my feedback to VT online