Anytime Ticket BoJ dispute

[firsttraveller]

I've read a fair few posts on this forum over the past few days to understand the etiquette, so I won't name stations but I wonder if someone can help.

I purchase a ticket from A to C, which goes via B. B happens to be a large city and as such, the price from A to B is higher than A to C which I purchase. This is the standard route shown on the journey planner of the operator and National Rail, although there are also options avoiding travel through B, but they are not as frequent.

I have travelled on this journey a couple of times a month for the last couple of years, more often than not, breaking my journey at B and continuing to C later in the day (or not at all). This isn't something I sought out as an anomaly or by inputting anything fancy into the journey planners other than ticket from A to C, it is a genuine journey that I needed to make, but I'm not going to lie that I have used it when travelling A-B and stopping short for the cheaper fare.

I always purchase any Anytime ticket along this route - there are no restrictions, except that it is only via (changing trains or passing through) Station D, which is always satisfied on the initial part of the journey.

With more and more frequency I've been getting hassle from the barrier staff when trying to exit (ticket doesn't work in the automatic barriers) but normally a quick check with the ticket staff confirm that it is valid and they let me through.

Last month, I got held hostage behind the barrier by a ticket inspector (that the barrier staff took me to) who said I wasn't allowed to cross through the barrier. Despite showing him the itinerary that I had booked and the link to the Anytime description confirming break of journey or stopping short is allowed, he insisted I could not.

He took my details and retained my ticket. He didn't confirm what the details were for, so it was only later when I googled Ticket Irregularity Report that was at the top of the page (how I found this forum), I realised that this could (although hopefully won't, as I believe I am in the right) be quite serious and result in fines/prosecution. None of this was explained to me, nor did I receive any form of receipt for my ticket. Hindsight is a great tool that I should have asked further about what was going on, but I had already been delayed by a signal failure and was cutting it fine for my meeting, and this actually meant that I was 15 minutes late to my meeting, so just wanted to leave ASAP.

Trying to complete my journey later that day meant I had no ticket, so although I eventually managed to get a permit to travel from the counter staff using my collection receipt and email booking as proof, this took 20 minutes, much head-scratching and disbelief by staff and as a result I missed my train.

On following this up with them on the phone today to see what is going on, their customer services are now saying that the valid route is only avoiding B, despite the fact that my booked itinerary states otherwise (and this wasn't the argument the inspector made, only that I couldn't go through the barrier and couldn't break my journey). I have asked how this can possibly be the case and have forwarded my email confirmation with the itinerary A-B-C (good job I had this, and didn't purchase at the counter) but it apparently still needs to be investigated.

My issue is that I am travelling again along this route tomorrow, and I don't want to have to buy 2 separate tickets (the cost would be significantly more) but likewise, I don't want the same dramas, delays, and potential repercussions if for some bizarre reason I turn out to be in the wrong, I'm sure it would be frowned upon to make the same "attempt" whilst the first is under investigation.

So firstly, is there anything else I might be missing as to why this wouldn't be allowed? I am 99% sure there isn't but I also can't understand how they are arguing against an Anytime ticket with no restriction and the itinerary on the booking from their own website. Any advice on what I should do tomorrow? I'm happy to PM someone in the know the actual details of the stations if this might help in order to put my mind at ease that I'm not doing something wrong.

This has genuinely stressed me out over the last couple of weeks (I actually had a sleepless night when I read about the possible actions following a TIR!) so I hope someone can help!

 

[firsttraveller]

Sorry that was so much longer than I thought!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Break of Journey is always permitted on an Anytime Single or (Day) Return ticket. So if you were on a Permitted Route, then they have no business telling you you cannot pass any barrier.

As to Permitted Routes, a route produced by the National Rail site against a single ticket (i.e. where you get "Other journeys this ticket can be used on" rather than "Ticket valid for this train only") is by definition Permitted. Any investigation here should exclusively lead to a change to the Permitted Routes to disallow this one, if felt appropriate.

 

[firsttraveller]

Thank you, that was exactly my understanding of it and exactly why I've been so angry about it over the last few weeks, being made to feel like a criminal and causing so much disruption to my day.

Yes, I'm aware that the investigation could result in the fare being removed (sorry to anyone else who might be using it!!), but it actually makes sense that it is cheaper as C is closer to A than B, but there are very few options throughout the day avoiding B (only 1 before 9am which involves 3 changes) so I've always figured this was the reason for the price difference - if there were more trains avoiding B then they could dictate the route taken.

 

[yorkie]

...On following this up with them on the phone today to see what is going on, their customer services are now saying that the valid route is only avoiding B, despite the fact that my booked itinerary states otherwise...

If you have an itinerary confirming validity via B they can't do anything to you, however if a train company does not want the ticket to be valid via B they can request that the routeing is changed.

Sadly there is no guarantee they won't be successful in preventing you using such tickets in future.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hang on a sec.

Your second post has reminded me of one exception to that happy scenario. If the route is only Permitted because it is a direct train between the origin and destination on your ticket, but not otherwise, then Break of Journey is not allowed on any ticket - basically you have to stay on that direct train, and leaving it for any reason other than because you are told to (e.g. by terminating short) leaves you off-route.

Can you just confirm that you aren't using direct trains in your itinerary, and if you are can you check the route (using a via point) on nationalrail.co.uk to see if it gives you a connectional journey on that route at the fare paid with "Other trains you can use this ticket on" shown rather than "Valid only on this train"? (or whatever the precise wording is)

 

[bb21]

There simply isn't enough information in the first post to say for definite whether what the OP did was permitted. That is one of the problems with not revealing the stations involved.

 

[firsttraveller]

The route, whichever way it is taken, involves a change of train. I don't know of any trains that stop at C from A (although I could be wrong on slower services, off-peak, maybe) so the change is at B and you have to change trains to a local service. Hopefully that rules out that scenario above?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The route, whichever way it is taken, involves a change of train. I don't know of any trains that stop at C from A (although I could be wrong on slower services, off-peak, maybe) so the change is at B and you have to change trains to a local service. Hopefully that rules out that scenario above?

I believe it does, yes.

 

[firsttraveller]

Just to confirm, the itinerary booked which gave me the Anytime ticket (and confirms Break of Journey is permitted when booking) is the route I followed.

 

[yorkie]

If you don't want to divulr the route publicly you could send me a private message ('conversation') and I can provide my view. I'm not going to disclose the information to any train company.

Just to confirm, the itinerary booked which gave me the Anytime ticket (and confirms Break of Journey is permitted when booking) is the route I followed.

A good retailer would back you up.

But there are loads of tickets I use that would be re-routed if train companies realised that I was able to pay a more reasonable fare (often priced by a rival company) than the extortionate fare they want me to pay. It's unwise to use suck tickets at gatelines where staff may closely inspect the tickets and request that the routeing is withdrawn as they won't last long.

 

[firsttraveller]

Thank you. PM sent

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'm sure you will have the full support of the various posters here if anything happens, beyond this apparent anomaly being fixed.

Even if this related to breaking your journey on a route that is only permitted by virtue of it being a through train, the fact that, on an Anytime ticket, you are explicitly told you can break your journey at any point along the route of travel, means it is permissible.

 

[yorkie]

It's absolutely valid.

But the train company could try to re-route that fare to stop it being valid via that route. They cannot alter the validity retrospectively for any ticket that has already been sold though.

 

[firsttraveller]

Thanks Yorkie. Just booked for tomorrow so fingers crossed it goes more smoothly and I do hope they don't remove the route in the future.

It's bad enough I've just gone to use Quidco to book via Greater Anglia and the 3% cashback has disappeared. Sad times!

 

[gray1404]

If you can, book it via the site of the train company that has taken your details i.e. the one you had problems with. That is really good evidence to have for now or for the future.

The best I am getting with cashback atm on Quidco is though TPE 1% and nectur points on top.

 

[gray1404]

Now that I am aware of the stations involved, I rather fear that the TOC might close this one now as they will not want this fare being used in this way. It is such a shame their attention had to be drawn to it.

 

[firsttraveller]

Ok so I had an email back from the TOC earlier this week saying that “Whilst a break of journey is permitted on an Anytime ticket, the fare to B is more so you need to purchase a ticket to B”

It then went on to say that the Independent Appeals service will be in touch with me.

Then I get a letter through today from the TOC’s prosecution unit saying that they are considering whether to take legal action and asking for any evidence to be submitted.

If it wasn’t making me so stressed out I’d probably be laughing about now it is so ridiculous...

But does anyone have any advice on what to put in my evidence? I’ve already submitted my email booking which has the itinerary of the route I made and the intinerary on their own site with the same cost along with the confirmation when I booked it states that a Break of Journey is permitted. I’ll happily submit this again but is there anything else I should mention at this point about the inspector’s failure to inform me about what I was giving my details for, confiscating my ticket without giving me a permit to travel or a receipt and the fact that this was done to a journey that was already 30 mins + delayed due to signalling problems so I was desperate to get on with my journey, or should I just stick to the ticket facts at this point?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Ok so I had an email back from the TOC earlier this week saying that “Whilst a break of journey is permitted on an Anytime ticket, the fare to B is more so you need to purchase a ticket to B”

Well, they are contradicting themselves, aren't they! If break of journey is permitted (it is!), and you have an itinerary that validates travel via B, you can break your journey there. Perhaps what they are saying is that they don't like you undercutting the fare to B by breaking your journey there - but that is a matter for them to fix with their pricing. Taking your details and accusing you of being in the wrong is entirely the wrong way to be going about this. Sadly, I am not surprised - this is very common in the rail industry.

It then went on to say that the Independent Appeals service will be in touch with me.

What are you appealing against? A Penalty Fare, or Unpaid Fares Notice of some kind?

Then I get a letter through today from the TOC’s prosecution unit saying that they are considering whether to take legal action and asking for any evidence to be submitted.

Haha, a prosecution? They will struggle mightily - because you are 100% in the right!

If it wasn’t making me so stressed out I’d probably be laughing about now it is so ridiculous...

I agree. The rail industry sometimes gets so involved in its own processes and procedures that people don't take a moment to step back and look at the bigger picture. Like, in this case, attempting to prosecute someone who was using a valid ticket in a permitted manner.

But does anyone have any advice on what to put in my evidence? I’ve already submitted my email booking which has the itinerary of the route I made and the intinerary on their own site with the same cost along with the confirmation when I booked it states that a Break of Journey is permitted. I’ll happily submit this again but is there anything else I should mention at this point about the inspector’s failure to inform me about what I was giving my details for, confiscating my ticket without giving me a permit to travel or a receipt and the fact that this was done to a journey that was already 30 mins + delayed due to signalling problems so I was desperate to get on with my journey, or should I just stick to the ticket facts at this point?

I'm not sure there's much more to add, but how about this as a draft:

Dear Sir / Madam,

I note the contents of your letter of insert date.

As I have explained several times already, I was issued with an itinerary from A to C, via B, when I bought the ticket. This itinerary is evidence of the contract I held with your company, and as such, you are obliged to accept travel on the itinerary.

The terms of the ticket type which I bought dictate that break of journey is permitted - and the right to break my journey includes the right to terminate it early, at any intermediate station. I was therefore entirely permitted to leave the station at with the ticket I held. The fare to any intermediate, or other, station between A and C bears no relation whatsoever on the contract I held with you.

Should you proceed with a prosecution in view of the facts in this case, I will have no alternative but to consider that this may constitute a malicious prosecution. In line with the test established by the Supreme Court in Willers v Joyce [2016] UKSC 43 & 44, this is made out where:

1. Proceedings are brought without reasonable and probable cause, and
2. The party bringing proceedings did so maliciously.

Having explained the circumstances of the matter, there can be no reasonable cause for you to suspect that any offence has been committed. I was using a valid ticket in an entirely valid manner. This satisfies the first test. The definition of 'maliciously' for the second test is that the proceedings "[are] not a bona fide use of the court’s process". It is clear that you are considering a prosecution merely because you wish to punish my behaviour, because the fare I paid was less than the fare you would have liked me to have paid, and that it is an attempt to misuse the Court process.

If a malicious prosecution is made out, I shall have no choice but to instruct legal counsel to pursue you, civilly and/or criminally.

I trust that this will not be necessary and that you will confirm immediately that no further action will be taken, and that this ticket will be accepted for break of journey in future.

Yours faithfully,

 

[fairlie]

I think in that letter draft you mean:

"Having explained the circumstances of the matter, there can be no reasonable cause for you to suspect that any offence has been committed."