Appeal for a prosecution by TIL on Chiltern Railways

[nehadodeja]

Hi Friends,

I need help. My boyfriend and I had traveled to Bicester Village on 30th December 2023. My boyfriend was visiting me and this was our first time traveling to Bicester village. We boarded the train from Marylebone train station and used our Oyster Card to get on board (we have proof of Oyster payments at Marylebone station). However, when we reached Bicester Village , we realised our Oyster cards would not work. We were then approached by an extremely rude railway agent who said we would be reported. I tried to tell him that we tapped in with our Oyster cards and that we weren't aware that we needed a separate ticket for it, we even offered to buy a new ticket as it was an honest mistake. He was still adamant about giving us a fine though - he gave a new ticket to my boyfriend since he doesn't live in London and I received a letter 1.5 months later saying that I needed to pay a 140 gbp fine or they would take me to the court for 'intent to avoid fare'.

I have proof that we tapped in with our Oyster cards and we also offered to buy a new ticket, so I don't understand how can this be an 'intent to avoid fare'? Also, I feel there is a systemic issue - there was no written signage or notice near the gates at Marylebone station stating that the Oyster card is only valid until a specific station, and no announcements were made in the train informing passengers that they need to buy an additional ticket to travel further. I have observed that Elizabeth line announces on the train, that the Oyster card is not valid after West Drayton and travelers need to purchase a separate, ticket to avoid any confusion. However, no such announcement is made on the train to Bicester Village.

I feel this is more a matter of principles and I feel this fine is unwarranted. I have appealed to them and have exchanged a few letters but they are adamant about summoning me to the court (the 28 day deadline for fine payment is gone now). What should I do?

 

[Adam Williams]

However, no such announcement is made on the train to Bicester Village.

If the train didn't stop at Wembley then I'm not sure any of the stops out of Marylebone would've been valid to travel to with an Oyster card?

 

[Brissle Girl]

Bicester is 60 miles out of London and Oyster is a Transport for London product. You need to take some responsibility I’m afraid for not checking whether Oyster was valid before travelling.

The difference in announcements is that the West Drayton train is a TfL train - Chiltern is a national operator that runs services up to Birmingham.

If you’ve already exchanged several letters the opportunity to negotiate an out of court settlement seems slim, but you could review some advice from @Hadders in other threads as to how to construct a final appeal.

 

[nehadodeja]

Bicester is 60 miles out of London and Oyster is a Transport for London product. You need to take some responsibility I’m afraid for not checking whether Oyster was valid before travelling.

The difference in announcements is that the West Drayton train is a TfL train - Chiltern is a national operator that runs services up to Birmingham.

If you’ve already exchanged several letters the opportunity to negotiate an out of court settlement seems slim, but you could review some advice from @Hadders in other threads as to how to construct a final appeal.

Thank you so much for your help! In our defense, I moved to the UK one year ago from Singapore and my boyfriend was only visiting me. We still do not understand the train systems very well but had absolutely no intention to evade any fare and offered to purchase a new ticket.

I will reach out to @Hadders to see if I could have a final appeal, thanks again!

 

[furlong]

Step 1 - please clarify PRECISELY what paperwork you received at the time of the incident (and later) and how and when you responded. The easiest way to do this is to upload photos of it (covering up identifying names and reference numbers etc.)

 

[nehadodeja]

Here are the letters from TIL and my responses.

Step 1 - please clarify PRECISELY what paperwork you received at the time of the incident (and later) and how and when you responded. The easiest way to do this is to upload photos of it (covering up identifying names and reference numbers etc.)

Here are the letters and responses

 

[Rail101]

You may want to delete those and re-upload as the reference number is still visible and your address isn't particularly obscured

 

[furlong]

Well you have some good arguments there but I think your strongest one may be the different treatment of your boyfriend - but if you let this go to court you'll really need to pay a lawyer to try to make the argument for you that a prosecution can't be brought for that reason (e.g. arguing that treating the cases differently amounts to an 'abuse of process') and the cost of that lawyer is going to outweigh everything else with no guarantee of success.

What we normally suggest is paying up the amount they are asking for under protest to bring the threat of prosecution to an end, and then pursuing complaints to try to get your money back. If you've been following the Post Office scandal you might notice some parallels and you might consider yourself a victim of some future Railway Prosecutions scandal waiting for the media to uncover. There is a direct parallel with the situation at Stansted Airport which has received recent media coverage. I would also try to get the management of Bicester Village involved on your side as they may be able to bring pressure upon the train company if it is treating their customers unfairly and potentially going to lead to bad publicity putting people off visiting their shops and reducing their profits!

If you were a member of the Bicester Village membership scheme, particularly at one of the higher levels, you might even be able to persuade them to cover the penalty in the first instance (and then raise the issue with the train company at the most senior level themselves).

 

[nehadodeja]

You may want to delete those and re-upload as the reference number is still visible and your address isn't particularly obscured

Thank you! Re-uploaded!!

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you! Re-uploaded!!

What's the difference between you and your boyfriend? Did he argue his point? Was he met by the same inspector?

 

[nehadodeja]

What's the difference between you and your boyfriend? Did he argue his point? Was he met by the same inspector?

He doesn't live in the UK, he was visiting me! So the officer allowed him to purchase a new ticket but I was given a fine.

Well you have some good arguments there but I think your strongest one may be the different treatment of your boyfriend - but if you let this go to court you'll really need to pay a lawyer to try to make the argument for you that a prosecution can't be brought for that reason (e.g. arguing that treating the cases differently amounts to an 'abuse of process') and the cost of that lawyer is going to outweigh everything else with no guarantee of success.

What we normally suggest is paying up the amount they are asking for under protest to bring the threat of prosecution to an end, and then pursuing complaints to try to get your money back. If you've been following the Post Office scandal you might notice some parallels and you might consider yourself a victim of some future Railway Prosecutions scandal waiting for the media to uncover. There is a direct parallel with the situation at Stansted Airport which has received recent media coverage. I would also try to get the management of Bicester Village involved on your side as they may be able to bring pressure upon the train company if it is treating their customers unfairly and potentially going to lead to bad publicity putting people off visiting their shops and reducing their profits!

If you were a member of the Bicester Village membership scheme, particularly at one of the higher levels, you might even be able to persuade them to cover the penalty in the first instance (and then raise the issue with the train company at the most senior level themselves).

Ok , thank you! Ill see if I can them to pay up then

 

[CyrusWuff]

Bicester is 60 miles out of London and Oyster is a Transport for London product. You need to take some responsibility I’m afraid for not checking whether Oyster was valid before travelling.

The difference in announcements is that the West Drayton train is a TfL train - Chiltern is a national operator that runs services up to Birmingham.

If you’ve already exchanged several letters the opportunity to negotiate an out of court settlement seems slim, but you could review some advice from @Hadders in other threads as to how to construct a final appeal.

Chiltern services that stop at Wembley, the Sudburys, Northolt Park and/or the Ruislips have an "Oyster cards are valid as far as <x>" announcement on departure from Marylebone, and a "The next station is the last station to which Oyster cards are valid" one on approach to the relevant station.

However, only one of the two trains to Oxford each hour stops at Wembley Stadium, with the second one being non-stop to Gerrards Cross, so if the OP boarded one of those they wouldn't have heard such an announcement.

 

[island]

Well you have some good arguments there but I think your strongest one may be the different treatment of your boyfriend - but if you let this go to court you'll really need to pay a lawyer to try to make the argument for you that a prosecution can't be brought for that reason (e.g. arguing that treating the cases differently amounts to an 'abuse of process')

I know you love the term "abuse of process" but this absolutely is not what that means.

I agree with your recommendation that the OP pay the sum requested promptly.

 

[30907]

... I received a letter 1.5 months later saying that I needed to pay a 140 gbp fine or they would take me to the court for 'intent to avoid fare'.
I have proof that we tapped in with our Oyster cards and we also offered to buy a new ticket, so I don't understand how can this be an 'intent to avoid fare'?

Using Oyster/contactless to get through the barrier is a classic way of avoiding the correct fare when travelling beyond the Zones. "Intent" in this context is determined by your action not by what was in your mind (which cannot be objectively assessed).

He doesn't live in the UK, he was visiting me! So the officer allowed him to purchase a new ticket but I was given a fine.

Reporting you for an irregularity is perfectly reasonable, and the fact that they have offered a settlement without being asked probably indicates that they haven't found any other evidence of irregularities.

As for your friend, showing discretion to visitors is not a bad thing in itself.
Pragmatically (1) it is more difficult to recover a fixed penalty (or to start a prosecution) with a non-resident foreign national (2) there is less need to deter them for the future and (3) "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" in financial terms.

The only possible challenge to the process would be if you could show that there is no clear signage at Marylebone, but I would be inclined to take that up later.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Thank you so much for your help! In our defense, I moved to the UK one year ago from Singapore and my boyfriend was only visiting me. We still do not understand the train systems very well but had absolutely no intention to evade any fare and offered to purchase a new ticket.

I will reach out to @Hadders to see if I could have a final appeal, thanks again!

I think the mitigation that you have only been in the U.K. a year and don’t understand the train system is very weak. When I visited Singapore a year ago for a few days I researched the fare system before travelling to make sure I knew exactly what to do (and do so in every country I travel to.)

So to say after a year here you don’t understand it is, in my view, unlikely to be of any use in court I’m afraid.

 

[Hadders]

However harsh it sounds legally the OP did not have a valid ticket which is a criminal offence. If the matter ends up in court the OP would be found guilty.

The OP hasn’t been issued with a Penalty Fare so issue of signage at Marylebone isn’t relevant.

My view is to pay the out of court settlement to stop the matter escalating and chalk it up to experience. Unless someone can come up with some other technical reason if the OP doesn’t pay the settlement the case will end up in court.

 

[furlong]

Another way to look at this. That the fare is due isn't in dispute. The passenger offered to pay it on the spot. The company refused to accept it then, but will accept it now but only on condition that a large amount is added on for unspecified costs. So the dispute really centres around the demand to pay those costs, which the passenger considers were entirely avoidable if the company had agreed to accept payment at the time. The passenger also considers the costs demanded completely disproportionate to the harm - not least because they consider that the train company caused the situation by failing to provide adequate signage to indicate that Oyster wasn't accepted in the way many people would expect - and as such the demand amounts to the imposition of an unjustified penalty.

This sort of thing can only be resolved by expensive legal arguments or wider media debates. "Little people" are basically best advised just to pay up and move on with their lives. I would get in contact with Bicester Village though as I'd be surprised if they don't have ongoing discussions with Chiltern over this issue and you do wonder why there still isn't a proper solution in place. (First time, charge the fare, hand out a pre-printed warning letter also explaining how to get back the maximum fare but keep a record so subsequent attempts would be detectable?)

 

[FenMan]

How far out of London would you expect Oyster cards to work? Bicester, Manchester, Edinburgh? Come on. You tried it, but it didn't work out for you on the day, with the consequences you have described. If the option is still available to you, pay the "fine" to make it go away. The alternative would be a lot worse.

 

[SteveM70]

Chiltern services that stop at Wembley, the Sudburys, Northolt Park and/or the Ruislips have an "Oyster cards are valid as far as <x>" announcement on departure from Marylebone, and a "The next station is the last station to which Oyster cards are valid" one on approach to the relevant station.

However, only one of the two trains to Oxford each hour stops at Wembley Stadium, with the second one being non-stop to Gerrards Cross, so if the OP boarded one of those they wouldn't have heard such an announcement.

As an aside, if Chiltern go to the trouble of lining up all those announcements, you'd think there'd be a "Oyster cards are not valid on this train" on the first stop Gerrads Cross before it leaves Marylebone

 

[nehadodeja]

However harsh it sounds legally the OP did not have a valid ticket which is a criminal offence. If the matter ends up in court the OP would be found guilty.

The OP hasn’t been issued with a Penalty Fare so issue of signage at Marylebone isn’t relevant.

My view is to pay the out of court settlement to stop the matter escalating and chalk it up to experience. Unless someone can come up with some other technical reason if the OP doesn’t pay the settlement the case will end up in court.

Ok thank you!

Another way to look at this. That the fare is due isn't in dispute. The passenger offered to pay it on the spot. The company refused to accept it then, but will accept it now but only on condition that a large amount is added on for unspecified costs. So the dispute really centres around the demand to pay those costs, which the passenger considers were entirely avoidable if the company had agreed to accept payment at the time. The passenger also considers the costs demanded completely disproportionate to the harm - not least because they consider that the train company caused the situation by failing to provide adequate signage to indicate that Oyster wasn't accepted in the way many people would expect - and as such the demand amounts to the imposition of an unjustified penalty.

This sort of thing can only be resolved by expensive legal arguments or wider media debates. "Little people" are basically best advised just to pay up and move on with their lives. I would get in contact with Bicester Village though as I'd be surprised if they don't have ongoing discussions with Chiltern over this issue and you do wonder why there still isn't a proper solution in place. (First time, charge the fare, hand out a pre-printed warning letter also explaining how to get back the maximum fare but keep a record so subsequent attempts would be detectable?)

Yes absolutely! My boyfriend paid the full fare and bought the new ticket on the spot and I offered to do the same. So this additional hassle of them sending me letters through a caseworks team and me having to respond seems very unnecessary to me. I accepted my mistake and am in no way defending it but I also do not believe this is in anyway a criminal offense that needs to go to court or needs a much higher settlement.

However, I have decided to just pay up. I still think there might be more such people making simple mistakes like this and the company using this in their benefit. There was another couple with us that day who was also exactly in the same situation as us. We didn't stay after to see what happened with them though.

I think the mitigation that you have only been in the U.K. a year and don’t understand the train system is very weak. When I visited Singapore a year ago for a few days I researched the fare system before travelling to make sure I knew exactly what to do (and do so in every country I travel to.)

So to say after a year here you don’t understand it is, in my view, unlikely to be of any use in court I’m afraid.

Ok thank you!


Yes absolutely! My boyfriend paid the full fare and bought the new ticket on the spot and I offered to do the same. So this additional hassle of them sending me letters through a caseworks team and me having to respond seems very unnecessary to me. I accepted my mistake and am in no way defending it but I also do not believe this is in anyway a criminal offense that needs to go to court or needs a much higher settlement.

However, I have decided to just pay up. I still think there might be more such people making simple mistakes like this and the company using this in their benefit. There was another couple with us that day who was also exactly in the same situation as us. We didn't stay after to see what happened with them though.

I think the mitigation that you have only been in the U.K. a year and don’t understand the train system is very weak. When I visited Singapore a year ago for a few days I researched the fare system before travelling to make sure I knew exactly what to do (and do so in every country I travel to.)

So to say after a year here you don’t understand it is, in my view, unlikely to be of any use in court I’m afraid.

Not to sound very defensive, but since you have been to Singapore, I am sure you know how robust the train system in Singapore is. If Oyster is not valid on a train, the gates should not accept Oyster cards to even allow people to enter, in my opinion.

How far out of London would you expect Oyster cards to work? Bicester, Manchester, Edinburgh? Come on. You tried it, but it didn't work out for you on the day, with the consequences you have described. If the option is still available to you, pay the "fine" to make it go away. The alternative would be a lot worse.

I am paying up now and I have no problem in paying but I do think its a matter of principles. If Oyster card is not valid on a train, the gates should not accept Oyster cards to enter. I cannot enter Eurostar by tapping an Oyster right? And if they cannot change the gates, there should be a clear notice saying that Oyster is not valid on this train - which I have checked, there is not.

 

[fandroid]

Comments on here about how the OP should have realised that Oyster is a TfL product and not valid to Bicester are all rather judgemental and display no empathy of the varied experience of people new to this country and to railways in general. Singapore is a relatively small city state, presumably with an entirely unified transport system. We have seen a huge variety of levels of understanding about railway ticketing (and railway geography) from lifelong UK residents. Let's please stick to advice and information.

 

[Hadders]

If Oyster card is not valid on a train, the gates should not accept Oyster cards to enter. I cannot enter Eurostar by tapping an Oyster right? And if they cannot change the gates, there should be a clear notice saying that Oyster is not valid on this train - which I have checked, there is not.

I’m not sure how this would work in reality in Britain.

At Marylebone you can use Oyster to travel to several stations within the London area (eg Wembley Stadium, Harrow on the Hill, West Ruislip…) it can’t be used (for example) to travel to Bicester Village, Birmingham, Oxford etc.

When you touch in at the gateline at Marylebone how is the system going to know where you intend to travel to? That isn’t how smartcard systems work, I’m afraid.

I do sympathise in your case, but I’m afraid that ultimately it’s your responsibility to make sure you have a valid ticket. If I’m travelling to an unfamiliar place I always research how I’m going to get around and what ticket(s) I need to do so.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Comments on here about how the OP should have realised that Oyster is a TfL product and not valid to Bicester are all rather judgemental and display no empathy of the varied experience of people new to this country and to railways in general. Singapore is a relatively small city state, presumably with an entirely unified transport system. We have seen a huge variety of levels of understanding about railway ticketing (and railway geography) from lifelong UK residents. Let's please stick to advice and information.

To be clear, the lack of unfamiliarity due to only being in the U.K. for a year was cited as a defence, and my point was that I did not think that argument would carry any weight if put forward in any final appeal for the points raised by @Hadders above.

 

[AlterEgo]

Comments on here about how the OP should have realised that Oyster is a TfL product and not valid to Bicester are all rather judgemental and display no empathy of the varied experience of people new to this country and to railways in general. Singapore is a relatively small city state, presumably with an entirely unified transport system. We have seen a huge variety of levels of understanding about railway ticketing (and railway geography) from lifelong UK residents. Let's please stick to advice and information.

It’s still your responsibility to check how you pay for a journey though. It’s naive at best to automatically think things work the way they do in your home country.

 

[simonw]

Comments on here about how the OP should have realised that Oyster is a TfL product and not valid to Bicester are all rather judgemental and display no empathy of the varied experience of people new to this country and to railways in general. Singapore is a relatively small city state, presumably with an entirely unified transport system. We have seen a huge variety of levels of understanding about railway ticketing (and railway geography) from lifelong UK residents. Let's please stick to advice and information.

I think responses on here tend to reflect the way the original request is phrased. Where people say they messed up and it's their fault, they get a sympathetic ear. But, I think in this case, the op appears not to accept that they did anything wrong or that they should have done some research. There is a difference between landing in a country and making a ticketing error and being here for a year and making an error because you haven't researched how things work.

 

[Monk2688]

Hi Friends,

I need help. My boyfriend and I had traveled to Bicester Village on 30th December 2023. My boyfriend was visiting me and this was our first time traveling to Bicester village. We boarded the train from Marylebone train station and used our Oyster Card to get on board (we have proof of Oyster payments at Marylebone station). However, when we reached Bicester Village , we realised our Oyster cards would not work. We were then approached by an extremely rude railway agent who said we would be reported. I tried to tell him that we tapped in with our Oyster cards and that we weren't aware that we needed a separate ticket for it, we even offered to buy a new ticket as it was an honest mistake. He was still adamant about giving us a fine though - he gave a new ticket to my boyfriend since he doesn't live in London and I received a letter 1.5 months later saying that I needed to pay a 140 gbp fine or they would take me to the court for 'intent to avoid fare'.

I have proof that we tapped in with our Oyster cards and we also offered to buy a new ticket, so I don't understand how can this be an 'intent to avoid fare'? Also, I feel there is a systemic issue - there was no written signage or notice near the gates at Marylebone station stating that the Oyster card is only valid until a specific station, and no announcements were made in the train informing passengers that they need to buy an additional ticket to travel further. I have observed that Elizabeth line announces on the train, that the Oyster card is not valid after West Drayton and travelers need to purchase a separate, ticket to avoid any confusion. However, no such announcement is made on the train to Bicester Village.

I feel this is more a matter of principles and I feel this fine is unwarranted. I have appealed to them and have exchanged a few letters but they are adamant about summoning me to the court (the 28 day deadline for fine payment is gone now). What should I do?

Best is to make the payment and move on. You can fight it but if it goes to prosecution it will have serious impact on your career and future visa applications to other countries.

 

[skyhigh]

...but if it goes to prosecution it will have serious impact on your career and future visa applications to other countries.

I'm sorry but in the majority of cases that is nonsense if the conviction is properly declared.

 

[Titfield]

I'm sorry but in the majority of cases that is nonsense if the conviction is properly declared.

IMHO it is still best to avoid a conviction and having it on the record. Yes a regulator of a profession may decide that it does not bar you (from working in the profession) ie you still pass the FPP test (fit and proper person test) but if something else occurred then the previous conviction could still be taken into account in a reassessment of the FPP test.