Apple Pay coming to the UK next month

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by SouthStand, 9 Jun 2015.

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  1. SouthStand

    SouthStand Member

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    Following yesterday's announcement by Apple that Tfl will be accepting Apple Pay, it shouldn't be too long before the mainline rail services follow suit and allow you to buy your ticket using your iPhone :D
     
  2. SS4

    SS4 Established Member

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    As long as it doesn't detract from other payments and is good value for the public purse I'm OK with it.
     
  3. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Apple Pay simply appears to the receiving terminal as a normal contactless payment, no different to the normal 'wave pay'. So it will have the same £20 limit initially, apparently going up to £30 in September this year.

    On its own it isn't that revolutionary, it doesn't mean mainline TOCs will be accepting PAYG any sooner as far as I can see.
     
  4. andrewkeith5

    andrewkeith5 Member

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    Does Apple Pay use NFC then? I didn't think NFC was fitted into iPhones

    If not, how on earth can it possibly work on TfL? If so, I might have to reconsider switching to an iPhone...
     
  5. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    NFC was only added from iPhone 6 onwards apparently (since last September?) - because that is the technology that reached critical mass - so Apple had little alternative but to follow suit.

    Which also means vast numbers of Apple users won't be using this system anyway...
     
  6. Minstral25

    Minstral25 Established Member

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    Seems odd that Apple Pay is immediately taken up and the older Android Pay and Microsoft Wallet NFC systems ignored still
     
  7. andrewkeith5

    andrewkeith5 Member

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    Further to my original post, it turns out that Apple Pay does actually use NFC. This has added an absolutely massive reason for me moving to iPhone (which isn't really welcome right now as my phone has just packed up half way through contract!)

    Indeed, I have had Windows Phones that have been fully capable of being Contactless payment devices for about 3 years now and it's infuriating that they still haven't implemented it. The problem is that the way Android and Microsoft have implemented it requires there to be a Secure Element on the SIM card, and none of the network operators can be bothered to implement that in the UK. Apple appear to have one-upped them by just putting the Secure Element in the device itself - therefore completely bypassing the network operators, who for years have been comprehensively lazy on the matter!
     
  8. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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  9. NotATrainspott

    NotATrainspott Established Member

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    Mobile payments has been a disaster so far because of how the network operators in most markets would demand it be run through them, rather than being implemented properly by the device manufacturer. Apple has the size and influence now to change that, which they have, and in doing so they have made it possible for Google and Microsoft to implement similar systems on their phones without having to go through the network operators. Android Pay was announced only a week or two ago and it has exactly the same capabilities as Apple Pay, so as soon as it is available in the UK the same ticket-buying capabilities should be available on Android phones.
     
  10. andrewkeith5

    andrewkeith5 Member

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    Which is fine when the only card you ever use is a Barclaycard Visa - but Barclaycard won't give me one for my Mastercard, and that I barely ever use that card nowadays anyway. Another product that's been out for years but still isn't available to anything more than a miniscule percentage of the population
     
  11. bicbasher

    bicbasher Established Member

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    TfL will be accepting Apple Pay.
     
  12. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    As pointed out in the original post of this thread, to be fair...
     
  13. Jordeh

    Jordeh Member

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    Transport for London has already enabled Apple Pay across the network, except only Americans are eligible to use it currently.
     
  14. Be3G

    Be3G Established Member

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    It didn't need to be ‘enabled’ by TfL: Apple Pay simply recreates the process of paying with a contactless debit/credit card. Hence, when Apple Pay launches over here every retailer that already accepts contactless will accept Apple Pay. Also hence the annoyingly low transaction limit (à la ‘traditional’ contactless), although according to the BBC Apple may be negotiating with specific retailers to enable larger transactions to be made.
     
  15. telstarbox

    telstarbox Established Member

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    But nearly everyone will still carry around a wallet or purse with their payment cards/ID/travel tickets in, so if a phone doesn't replace the wallet does it provide a significant benefit over a contactless card?
     
  16. Jordeh

    Jordeh Member

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    Thank you. It would be a lot easier if the media described it like that - except they insist on naming some retailers who will be accepting it (much to my confusion).

    There is certainly the added convenience of not needing to get out your wallet/purse as phones are often more easily accessible.

    It's not replaced the wallet yet as it isn't accepted widely enough, the £20 limit is too low and it cannot store the likes of season tickets and travelcards. In time it's likely all three of those will be overcome rather than over night.
     
    Last edited: 9 Jun 2015
  17. Cherry_Picker

    Cherry_Picker Established Member

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    Apple seem more willing to push their service into the public consciousness which means the average guy tends to actually use it and merchants (including LUL via their ticket barriers) are more willing to upgrade their equipment to meet demand. It's good for Android and Windows people who want to use their phones as a contactless payment device too because NFC points are highly likely to be compatible with all three standards.

    I think it will be a hit. I can tell you from experience that we are miles ahead of the USA in terms of contactless payment adoption, on their side of the pond, even in major cities like New York and San Francisco most people are still paying magnetic swipe and signature cards. Chip and PIN and contactless are virtually unheard of while they have been commonplace here (and in a lot of Europe) for years so I don't think there will be much resistance as people are encouraged to use phones to pay for things. Maybe some people won't see much point in using a phone when their card already works just fine but this isn't a zero sum game so I doubt Apple care.
     
  18. me123

    me123 Established Member

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    I'm very much looking forward to Apple Pay coming over here. This is going to be our biggest gamble at mobile payments thus far, so it will be really interesting to see if it's going to be taken up widely.

    I think it's very possible that the payment cap will increase in time for Apple Pay, by way of fingerprint verification on the iPhone, and again I'll be really interested to see if this does indeed happen.
     
  19. Via Bank

    Via Bank Member

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    I would expect most merchants to eventually accept high value payments (HVPs) but on condition that some method of authentication was done. (On the iPhone this would probably be putting your finger on the home button.)
     
  20. talldave

    talldave Established Member

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    Does Apple's NFC still work when the phone battery goes flat?
     
  21. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    You can use EE's Cash On Tap app as well.
    Let me guess, you're not on EE?
     
  22. me123

    me123 Established Member

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    Surprisingly enough, no. You need to have power in your mobile telephone in order for it to work. Of course, given that my iPhone 5 barely survives an 8 hour day at work, that poses a problem (although, of course, the iPhone 5 does not support Apple Pay). This will, of course, be a particular issue on the tube. You swipe in, your battery dies, you can't swipe out. Could you use the original card to swipe out if you've got it on you, or do you just have to make do with a penalty fare? What about if you get checked on a bus- you'd normally tap your card on a reader, but if your phone's dead you could very well have paid but would appear to be a fare evader to the inspector?

    It's not perfect. But I do think that it's more attractive than pulling out a debit card in a crowded tube station.

    I suspect and hope that retailers will adopt the technology to allow higher value payments by way of a fingerprint - I suspect that the card companies and banks would need to be happy that Apple's fingerprint reader is reliable and secure to minimise fraud.
     
  23. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I do a job that involves being out and about and I will leave my wallet in my bag in the office because I don't have the capacity to carry it around with me, and I don't want to risk losing items. The only personal item that I carry with me, aside from my keys which are clipped to my belt, is my mobile phone, so being able to pay for things with my phone would be a great advantage, as if I get peckish it saves me from having to go back to the office to get my cards.
     
  24. Via Bank

    Via Bank Member

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    The card wouldn't work, I think (or it'd charge you two maximum fares.) This is because Apple Pay uses EMV tokenisation, so instead of sending the card's primary account number it sends an anonymised token to the reader that refers to the card as added to the phone/watch.

    So from the merchant system's point of view, I believe, they would look like two separate cards.
     
  25. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    ****ed when it goes flat.
     
  26. talldave

    talldave Established Member

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    I didn't expect that to be the case! So it's another example of Apple's design over function approach. So now exit tube barriers are going to be clogged with iPhone users wondering why they can't get through!!! LOL amusing that their blind faith in Apple will cost them a penalty fare though!!
     
  27. SouthStand

    SouthStand Member

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    Ah an android user! I don't think we've had confirmation on how Tfl are accepting Apple Pay. It may be just for purchasing travel cards etc, are people just assuming that it will be used as an Oyster-like process with it's accompanying issues if you don't tap out?
     
  28. Harlan Cage

    Harlan Cage Member

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    I worked for VISA a couple years ago on their V.me program which is a similar solution to Apple pay but was not so advanced.
     
  29. Yew

    Yew Established Member

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    Although I found that germany is surprisingly card-unfriendly, and In austria I once chip and pinned a card, and was then asked to sign it as well!
     
  30. andrewkeith5

    andrewkeith5 Member

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    That's basically standard for any NFC on-device implementation - only passive NFC tags (a la the paytag, and single-purpose tags) work without a power source. A device like a smartphone will have so many purposes and applications for the NFC chip that it would be impossible to make it passive as there would simply be too much to encode to work out what purpose it was being read for, let alone to include any data, in any reasonable amount of time.
     
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