Applying for Trainee Driver as Depot Driver.

[SPADTrap]

Hi guys

As we've already had a discussion about applying for qualified positions as a depot driver I was curious as to what your thoughts were on applying for a trainee drivers position as a current depot driver.

Scenario is you took a depot drivers position but have a goal of mainline, you won't get mainline for a while at your current location and there's no chance of a transfer. There are trainee driver positions going closer to home and you want to apply. Would this give you an advantage? Something tells me maybe not?

Cheers guys.

Sam

 

[E&W Lucas]

Hi guys

As we've already had a discussion about applying for qualified positions as a depot driver I was curious as to what your thoughts were on applying for a trainee drivers position as a current depot driver.

Scenario is you took a depot drivers position but have a goal of mainline, you won't get mainline for a while at your current location and there's no chance of a transfer. There are trainee driver positions going closer to home and you want to apply. Would this give you an advantage? Something tells me maybe not?

Cheers guys.

Sam

It's a competency based selection process, so a depot driver should be able to put a very strong application together.

A qualification though: a clean safety record would be a major plus. A history of cock ups wouldn't be!

As ever, there is no need to have worked on the railway, to become a trainee driver.

 

[SPADTrap]

It's a competency based selection process, so a depot driver should be able to put a very strong application together.

A qualification though: a clean safety record would be a major plus. A history of cock ups wouldn't be!

As ever, there is no need to have worked on the railway, to become a trainee driver.

Thanks for the reply, good to hear it could be viewed as a positive. I know there is no need which is why I thought that perhaps TOCs would rather take somebody who hasn't than someone who is a DD, even one who carries a spotless safety record!

 

[TDK]

Thanks for the reply, good to hear it could be viewed as a positive. I know there is no need which is why I thought that perhaps TOCs would rather take somebody who hasn't than someone who is a DD, even one who carries a spotless safety record!

Being a DD will almost automatically get you through the sift unless you spoil the form. Your experience as a DD will be taken into account but there is where it will end. You will need to go through the same process as anyone else unless you have already passed the psychometric tests.

 

[Dave1987]

Sorry but again I have to totally disagree with both of you! DD have to go through exactly the same selection process as mainline drivers. They have also been trained 2/3 of the way to mainline standard. I think a DD applying for a trainee mainline job would be a virtual certainty if said DD has a clean record. Like I said on the previous thread a DD I knew went to SWT for a mainline job and they took him straight away because he was 2/3 trained. To say the only advantage a DD has is in the initial paper sift is nonsense! You really do like putting down the role of a DD don't you!!

 

[E&W Lucas]

Sorry but again I have to totally disagree with both of you! DD have to go through exactly the same selection process as mainline drivers. They have also been trained 2/3 of the way to mainline standard. I think a DD applying for a trainee mainline job would be a virtual certainty if said DD has a clean record. Like I said on the previous thread a DD I knew went to SWT for a mainline job and they took him straight away because he was 2/3 trained. To say the only advantage a DD has is in the initial paper sift is nonsense! You really do like putting down the role of a DD don't you!!

No, just being realistic.

In my experience, depot driver, or SHUNTER/ driver as it is really, is nothing like being 2/3 of the way to being a mainline driver. It is a shunter's job, with limited aspects of the driving role added on. Anyone from that background, would need a full driver training course. I'm guessing you are a depot driver on the GE, where things seem to be slightly different, ie you are in a line of promotion that eventually takes you mainline. Back to the Dark Ages!!!!

There are some companies that won't touch the depot driver concept. They would sooner pay for full mainline drivers to do the work, as they are getting a more highly trained and experienced person, doing that which is a high risk activity.

 

[Beveridges]

In my experience, depot driver, or SHUNTER/ driver as it is really, is nothing like being 2/3 of the way to being a mainline driver. It is a shunter's job, with limited aspects of the driving role added on. Anyone from that background, would need a full driver training course. I'm guessing you are a depot driver on the GE, where things seem to be slightly different, ie you are in a line of promotion that eventually takes you mainline. Back to the Dark Ages!!!!

re-training on traction and basic rules though is totally pointless unless traction type is different as a DD is more than competant on traction.
Other than that they are COMPLETELY different roles. Just like a DD can't do a mainline drivers job without further training, a mainline driver couldn't do a typical MDD job without further training. (At least at my TOC)
DD's get to do some aspects of driving which mainline drivers never get to do. I wouldn't call it "limited aspects of driving added to a shunters job". I find that a bit insulting. At my TOC, MDD's very regularly move swingers, haulers, half-units, put units back together, moving units that are under-going heavy repair/mods, and perform moves around a complex unsignalled yard on your own avoiding conflicting moves, these are things that a lot of mainline drivers in my TOC never get to do.
When you consider that DD's also do fuelling/tanking/toilet unblocking/CET / DP Duties / Shunting / Prepping / engine oil & coolant, and almost constant fault-finding & constantly doing safety-crit comms via radio, that makes the two roles even more different.
They both also require different skills so one person who is suited to one role may not be suited to the other.

I can't believe this topic comes up so often!
Why not compare MDD to something else for a change.

In !!!

As we've already had a discussion about applying for qualified positions as a depot driver I was curious as to what your thoughts were on applying for a trainee drivers position as a current depot driver.

Scenario is you took a depot drivers position but have a goal of mainline, you won't get mainline for a while at your current location and there's no chance of a transfer. There are trainee driver positions going closer to home and you want to apply. Would this give you an advantage? Something tells me maybe not?

From the TOC's point of view Depot drivers are expensive and difficult to replace so this may hold you back applying for a mainline role within the same TOC. It will mean the TOC will have trained you twice on two seperate & expensive courses - something they are keen to avoid!
But when applying with a different TOC they will be more than glad to take you on as long as they're not on the "old mates act" and as long as you don't say something stupid in the Interview

 

[notadriver]

At my TOC they are called shunter drivers. They have diagrams with certain unit moves that are required in the same way main line drivers have diagrams. Thus a main line driver can do the driving portion of a shunter drivers job. What they don't have to do if given a shunter drivers turn is any cleaning, emptying of toilets or any miscellaneous duties that a shunter driver might do. Until recently a main line driver could also do the safety critical part of a conductor/guards job. This would ensure a train wouldn't be cancelled if a conductor was late on a previous train.

 

[Beveridges]

At my TOC they are called shunter drivers. They have diagrams with certain unit moves that are required in the same way main line drivers have diagrams. Thus a main line driver can do the driving portion of a shunter drivers job. What they don't have to do if given a shunter drivers turn is any cleaning, emptying of toilets or any miscellaneous duties that a shunter driver might do. Until recently a main line driver could also do the safety critical part of a conductor/guards job. This would ensure a train wouldn't be cancelled if a conductor was late on a previous train.

That role you describe does not sound like a "Proper" MDD role. For a start - Cleaning??? Thats a job for cleaners, not for MDD's to waste their time with. Don't think a TOC really should pay £220 for a MDD to be a "Cleaner" for the night when they could get a dedicated Cleaner a lot cheaper?

At my TOC there is no way they could (for example) get a mainline driver from Man Vic to come up to Newton Heath and cover a MDD role if they are short-staffed... An exmainline driver moved from Man Picc to NH last year and started his MDD training in January, took him until April/May to pass out. A lot quicker than someone off the street would take, but its still a considerable amount of training.
Two completely seperate roles, just because someone has been a mainline driver does not mean they can just walk into a depot and start immediately. Just like an MDD can't leave a depot and go driving on the mainline immediately.
In both cases some of the training can be skipped but thats about it.
Apart from some similarities at the beginning of the training courses, the roles are so seperate you might as well compare a MDD driver with a fitter or a signaller.

 

[notadriver]

That role you describe does not sound like a "Proper" MDD role. For a start - Cleaning??? Thats a job for cleaners, not for MDD's to waste their time with. Don't think a TOC really should pay £220 for a MDD to be a "Cleaner" for the night when they could get a dedicated Cleaner a lot cheaper?

Beveridges if you look here : http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=80199&page=10

it says the following :

You’ll also be labelling, cleaning cab interiors and exteriors, particularly windscreens, and checking that the train environment is up to our market leading standards. This is an important role for which full training will be given.

 

[badassunicorn]

I'm a Depot Driver.
When people ask me what I do for a job, I say I am a train driver. When I explain more about what I do as a DD, people take great joy in exclaiming how I'm not a train driver at all. Sorry? Do I or do I not drive trains? Can cleaners drive trains? No. Can Fitters drive trains? No. Can joe public drive trains? No.
So stop of ragging on Depot Drivers otherwise you'll have to prep your own train =P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The extent of cleaning I do is testing the windscreen washers work!

 

[Beveridges]

I'm a Depot Driver.
When people ask me what I do for a job, I say I am a train driver. When I explain more about what I do as a DD, people take great joy in exclaiming how I'm not a train driver at all. Sorry? Do I or do I not drive trains? Can cleaners drive trains? No. Can Fitters drive trains? No. Can joe public drive trains? No.
So stop of ragging on Depot Drivers otherwise you'll have to prep your own train =P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The extent of cleaning I do is testing the windscreen washers work!

The extent of cleaning that I do is drive Units through the wash, position units for PHC's, test the windscreen washers work on a prep, and about once a week take a unit onto the "Underfloor Cleaning" road! I also often fire up stabled units up at night so they have adequate lighting before the Cleaners start to clean them. Thats about it when it comes to anything related to cleaning.

Like I said - Cleaning - A job for cleaners. Even Cab ends. I don't have time to be picking up newspapers or cleaning up after certain mainline guards and drivers who leave the cabs a right mess.

When I explain more about what I do as a DD, people take great joy in exclaiming how I'm not a train driver at all.

Don't understand that at all. When I tell people what I do they say it sounds like a good job

 

[notadriver]

Don't understand that at all. When I tell people what I do they say it sounds like a good job

It is a good job. Which people are saying you aren't a train driver?

 

[Beveridges]

no one tells me that, though I tell them I'm a "maintenance depot driver" rather than saying I'm a "train driver"

 

[TDK]

Sorry but again I have to totally disagree with both of you! DD have to go through exactly the same selection process as mainline drivers. They have also been trained 2/3 of the way to mainline standard. I think a DD applying for a trainee mainline job would be a virtual certainty if said DD has a clean record. Like I said on the previous thread a DD I knew went to SWT for a mainline job and they took him straight away because he was 2/3 trained. To say the only advantage a DD has is in the initial paper sift is nonsense! You really do like putting down the role of a DD don't you!!

Sorry Dave you yet again need to read my replyhere it is below:

Being a DD will almost automatically get you through the sift unless you spoil the form.

A DD driver will have to apply as a new trainee driver and will have to fill in the same application form as any one else however when sifted is almost a certain to the next stage.


Your experience as a DD will be taken into account but there is where it will end.

Fact Dave, I have recruited DD drivers before, they have to do the psychometric tests, interviews both SI and MI.


I have interviewed DD before and have failed and passed DD before, when it comes to the interview if the person is not up to standard they won't pass.

 

[Dave1987]

Sorry Dave you yet again need to read my replyhere it is below:

Being a DD will almost automatically get you through the sift unless you spoil the form.

A DD driver will have to apply as a new trainee driver and will have to fill in the same application form as any one else however when sifted is almost a certain to the next stage.


Your experience as a DD will be taken into account but there is where it will end.

Fact Dave, I have recruited DD drivers before, they have to do the psychometric tests, interviews both SI and MI.


I have interviewed DD before and have failed and passed DD before, when it comes to the interview if the person is not up to standard they won't pass.

Well the fact is that DD's have already been throught the physcometric tests/SI/ and DM at the same level as mainline drivers so sorry TDK but your argument their simply doesn't stand up! As you very well know all drivers have their assessment material on their driver file. So again by your reasoning all drivers be them deopt driver or mainline drivers would have to go through the complete application process every time they applied for another TOC. As I have been told DD do not have to go through the assessment process again to apply for another TOC as they have already been assessed. So like I said your argument does not stand up.

Fact Dave, I have recruited DD drivers before, they have to do the psychometric tests, interviews both SI and MI.

So why do DD's have to do the full mainline assessment then if they have to do exactly the same process again for a mainline posistion. And the fact of the matter is is that at GA all DD's eventually go mainline so again your argument does not stand up!!

 

[Beveridges]

As I have been told DD do not have to go through the assessment process again to apply for another TOC as they have already been assessed. So like I said your argument does not stand up.

Yes, an MDD who applies for a job in another TOC (whether its another Driver Operator job or a Mainline role) would only have to do the app form and manager interview, and skip the psychometric tests and structured interview with the assessor as they've already done it.

That is generally speaking anyway. Some TOC's can enforce anyone to do them again if they want though.

 

[GB]

Isn't there at least one TOC that insists already fully qualified drivers do the psychometrics again if they are applying to their company?

As with all things railway, each company will do things their own way and set their own criteria.

 

[Beveridges]

Isn't there at least one TOC that insists already fully qualified drivers do the psychometrics again if they are applying to their company?

I think it was Trans Pennine Express? Any TOC can basically make anyone do the whole thing again if they want, even if its not required by the Industrial Standards, though I think they are in the minority.

 

[TDK]

Isn't there at least one TOC that insists already fully qualified drivers do the psychometrics again if they are applying to their company?

As with all things railway, each company will do things their own way and set their own criteria.

DRS ask qualified drivers to do an aptitude test
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well the fact is that DD's have already been throught the physcometric tests/SI/ and DM at the same level as mainline drivers so sorry TDK but your argument their simply doesn't stand up! As you very well know all drivers have their assessment material on their driver file. So again by your reasoning all drivers be them deopt driver or mainline drivers would have to go through the complete application process every time they applied for another TOC. As I have been told DD do not have to go through the assessment process again to apply for another TOC as they have already been assessed. So like I said your argument does not stand up.



So why do DD's have to do the full mainline assessment then if they have to do exactly the same process again for a mainline posistion. And the fact of the matter is is that at GA all DD's eventually go mainline so again your argument does not stand up!!

When I recruited MDD drivers they had not completed the same aptitude tests required by the company I worked for, and they had to apply as a non qualified driver and they had to take the strutured interview. Maybe other companies are different but I am almost 100% certain that all DB group compaies will ensure either they have evidence of the correct aptitude tests have been undertaken with a good pass however even if they have taken the tests they will still have to have the 2 interviews, it's not an aguament Dave I am posting this from first hand experience from when I was an assessor, interviewer. Maybe it has changed since I did it and maybe other TOC's take an MDD and treat them different, it would beinteresting to know where you have aquired this information from?

 

[Beveridges]

When I recruited MDD drivers they had not completed the same aptitude tests required by the company I worked for

There are several MDD Drivers who I work with who do not have the psychometric test pass, namely the ones who have been on for 12+ years.
I think it has only been at some point in the last 12 years or so where there has been a requirement for MDD's to take the tests before joining the grade.
Thats probably why you came across MDD's who didn't have the test pass

 

[E&W Lucas]

re-training on traction and basic rules though is totally pointless unless traction type is different as a DD is more than competant on traction.
Other than that they are COMPLETELY different roles. Just like a DD can't do a mainline drivers job without further training, a mainline driver couldn't do a typical MDD job without further training. (At least at my TOC)
DD's get to do some aspects of driving which mainline drivers never get to do. I wouldn't call it "limited aspects of driving added to a shunters job". I find that a bit insulting. At my TOC, MDD's very regularly move swingers, haulers, half-units, put units back together, moving units that are under-going heavy repair/mods, and perform moves around a complex unsignalled yard on your own avoiding conflicting moves, these are things that a lot of mainline drivers in my TOC never get to do.
When you consider that DD's also do fuelling/tanking/toilet unblocking/CET / DP Duties / Shunting / Prepping / engine oil & coolant, and almost constant fault-finding & constantly doing safety-crit comms via radio, that makes the two roles even more different.
They both also require different skills so one person who is suited to one role may not be suited to the other.

I can't believe this topic comes up so often!
Why not compare MDD to something else for a change.



From the TOC's point of view Depot drivers are expensive and difficult to replace so this may hold you back applying for a mainline role within the same TOC. It will mean the TOC will have trained you twice on two seperate & expensive courses - something they are keen to avoid!
But when applying with a different TOC they will be more than glad to take you on as long as they're not on the "old mates act" and as long as you don't say something stupid in the Interview

An excellent post.

My remarks were not intended as insulting, and I'm sorry if you took them that way. The job is of value, and you have taken far more time to explain what is involved in it. Some of us get involved in the "out of course" stuff mainline as well. As you say, that is a real test.

When you are training mainline, every instructor will tell you, that you prove yourself when the fog comes down. You will s*** yourself the first time you see it, and even more so the first time you do it on your own. 100++ mph in near zero visibility, but in total control of what you are doing?
That is train driving in a nutshell!