Are concessionary pass holders 'entitled freeloaders'?

[Bletchleyite]

We don't have that problem in Wales where passes are valid at all times.

Perhaps the grumblers should consider booking later appointments if not paying to get to them is so important?

You've tried asking for a specific time when booking a GP or hospital appointment of late? You get what you're given.

Of course you could make an exception if you can show an appointment letter.

 

[Dai Corner]

You've tried asking for a specific time when booking a GP or hospital appointment of late? You get what you're given.

Of course you could make an exception if you can show an appointment letter.

Only a (NHS) dental appointment. I was offered s choice of times and got the impression they'd have been more flexible if I hadn't accepted one of them.

 

[duncanp]

As a holder of an ENCTS disabled persons bus pass, I have an interest in this subject.

I think saying that every concessionary pass holder is an "entitled freeloader" is not accurate, as is bordering on the offensive for those who are on low incomes, have no access to a car, and are thus dependent on public transport more than most.

However, those people who do hold a concessionary pass must recognise that the associated free travel comes at a cost, which is borne by taxpayers who are not entitled to such concessions.

Here in Birmingham, for example, if you have a concessionary pass and need to travel before 09:30 Monday - Friday, you can show your pass and pay a reduced fare of £1 as opposed to the full fare of £2.40.

If you need to travel frequently at these times, you can buy an add on to your pass for £33 per month, which is about half the cost of a full price bus pass.

If concessionary pass holders were entitled to travel for free at all times, it could mean that the single bus fare was £2.50 or £2.60, which would be unfair to those who have to pay full fares.

Personally I would be quite happy to pay £33 for my concessionary pass all the time, IF it could guarantee the financial viability of local bus services.

There are many people in rural areas who are entitled to a bus pass, but the lack of bus services means that the bus pass is about as much use as a chocolate teapot. What is the point of having a bus pass if there are no buses?

To those who may be resentful of the concessions that disabled and older people enjoy, I would say that I presume you would want to have the benefit of similar concessions when you reach old age, or if you become disabled.

It is therefore essential that the ENCTS system is put on a sound financial footing, so that it can be sustained on a long term basis.

 

[Dai Corner]

There are many people in rural areas who are entitled to a bus pass, but the lack of bus services means that the bus pass is about as much use as a chocolate teapot. What is the point of having a bus pass if there are no buses?

They may use them when they visit urban areas, perhaps driving to the edge of town and taking the bus on to their destination.

 

[Simon75]

First Potteries charge £2 per pass before 9.30am

In Scotland, I believe the Scotland government fund it direct without the councils having to fund it

 

[Dai Corner]

In Scotland, I believe the Scotland government fund it direct without the councils having to fund it

The Welsh Government pick up the entire bill too, though I think it's by reimbursing the local authorities' reimbursements.

They regard it as subsidising the bus industry rather than funding free travel for passholders.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The only time I feel guilty is if I'm travelling on my age-based pass with a friend who has epilepsy and is therefore disqualified from driving and has been fighting bureaucracy for ages to get a disability-based one.

I have no issue with older people having a free bus pass as long as it is properly resourced.

The contentious issue is, as with any laudable scheme, those who then abuse it but that's the same principle with benefits and we don't withdraw those from the majority because of actions of a minority.

As time goes by yes. But in the early years of the nationwide free scheme those receiving the free pass had not paid in. What they may have paid in was for a half-fare pass or whatever was available in their local area.

Explained this to my mum. It's the "I'm getting out what I put in" as with the NHS and Welfare State from National Insurance. I just point out who paid in for her mother and that generation!

I suspect that those who are mostly likely to feel that they are entitled are those who only use it occasionally.

On one occasion I got on a fairly full bus around 09.00 (unusually early for me), popped my Rover on the scanner and sat down. Immediately the old boy next to me started whining to me that he’d had to pay to as it was before 09.00 and ‘It wasn’t fair’, with a suggestion that I was cheating. As telling him that I had a paid for Rover didn’t shut him up, I had to spend the rest of the journey listening this whingeing old f**t.

One thing that does get a lot of grumbling is when pass holders have to pay to catch a bus before 09.30 to get to a medical appointment. Many seem to have an attitude that that ought to be free.

I remember a bus service near my home town where the local rag publicised how one particular village was now cut off as the first bus wasn't until 1145 or something. Of course, there was one at 0830 but in many of the potential users' eyes, it didn't exist as their pass wasn't valid.

 

[Dai Corner]

The contentious issue is, as with any laudable scheme, those who then abuse it but that's the same principle with benefits and we don't withdraw those from the majority because of actions of a minority.

What do you consider abuse?

I mainly use mine for days out - there are many scenic routes in south Wales as you know - and travelling to/from the pub. Would you restrict use to grocery shopping and medical appointments?

 

[pepperpot80]

Are concessionary pass holders 'entitled freeloaders'?​

No.

We, as a country, have made a decision that free local public transport is essential after 65+n years, and that the cost of providing said free transport is of overall greater benefit to society than what it costs.

This is likely still true - there are intangible physical and mental health benefits, indirect subsidy to volunteering, reduced need to provide transport to-from essential services, as well as providing a core backbone of funding for all bus services on a kind-of-but-not-really 'per usage' basis.

If we've collectively granted that right to free travel, how can using it be considered abuse, other than the use of fraudulently obtained passes?

Whether you have "paid in" or not is irrelevant: the whole purpose of a liberal democracy having a welfare state is to ensure that certain rights and freedoms are available to all. If we've decided that "free bus travel after [age]" is one of them, and you don't like it, feel free to find a voting majority who don't disagree with you, or a Treasury busybody who needs some pennies to pinch. There'll be little satisfaction to be found on this forum.

I think if I was going to phrase an inflammatory statement, I would say that concessionary pass holders (oh, and the Welsh, as ever) are trailblazers, demonstrating the value and benefit that the provision of highly subsidised public transport could bring to the rest of society. We could even consider providing it before 09:30 and running enough buses to cover the demand... shock horror.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm rather hoping @markymark2000 will find the time to read this thread and explain why he thinks passholders are freeloaders.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What do you consider abuse?

I mainly use mine for days out - there are many scenic routes in south Wales as you know - and travelling to/from the pub. Would you restrict use to grocery shopping and medical appointments?

Not that.

It's the disability issue where, as with blue badges or motability cars, some will abuse the system.

 

[Dai Corner]

Not that.

It's the disability issue where, as with blue badges or motability cars, some will abuse the system.

Ah right. See what you mean now.


I'll admit to taking the ex-father in law along 'just for the ride' so we could use his blue badge, especially when the Severn tolls were still in force.

I suppose the equivalent would be a disabled passholder taking a companion along even though the journey was for the companion's benefit.

 

[Eyersey468]

What do you consider abuse?

I mainly use mine for days out - there are many scenic routes in south Wales as you know - and travelling to/from the pub. Would you restrict use to grocery shopping and medical appointments?

What I consider abuse of the scheme is when people try and get someone who they have met at the bus stop on as their companion, and yes I have known that happen, or the lad a number of years ago with a companion pass who used to use it solely to get his mates free rides in and out of York, which isn't what the scheme was intended for.

It's certainly daft that I have one as I am working and paid well. But then I get free eye tests and prescriptions, and pay no employers NI.
I'm not claiming state pension as if you don't claim, when you claim later the amount you get is increased by just under 5% a year.
A colleague at work is 75. He is not claiming state pension and will get a good pension when he retires soon. He is a well paid IT developer.


Same as the state pension. It's a massive ponzai scheme.


Just pay for them. Swings and roundabouts.


I am surprised you don't have to state destination when scanning your pass. Surely bus companies should be able to claim more for longer journeys. (Or do they in some council areas)

Certainly with us its a set amount per pass we get paid

 

[duncanp]

What I consider abuse of the scheme is when people try and get someone who they have met at the bus stop on as their companion, and yes I have known that happen, or the lad a number of years ago with a companion pass who used to use it solely to get his mates free rides in and out of York, which isn't what the scheme was intended for.


Certainly with us its a set amount per pass we get paid

People who abuse the scheme should have their passes withdrawn, for a set period of time for a first offence, and then permanently for a subsequent offence.

A companion pass should be for just one nominated person, with the intention that the companion provides assistance to the disabled or elderly person whilst they are making a journey. The conditions should be similar to the Two Together railcard, where both persons must be travelling together for the pass to be valid.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What I consider abuse of the scheme is when people try and get someone who they have met at the bus stop on as their companion, and yes I have known that happen, or the lad a number of years ago with a companion pass who used to use it solely to get his mates free rides in and out of York, which isn't what the scheme was intended for.

That's the sort of thing I was thinking of.

Companion passes are again very laudable for those who can't manage on their own but that's taking the mick.

 

[Eyersey468]

People who abuse the scheme should have their passes withdrawn, for a set period of time for a first offence, and then permanently for a subsequent offence.

A companion pass should be for just one nominated person, with the intention that the companion provides assistance to the disabled or elderly person whilst they are making a journey. The conditions should be similar to the Two Together railcard, where both persons must be travelling together for the pass to be valid.

I agree the companion pass should be for one nominated person

That's the sort of thing I was thinking of.

Companion passes are again very laudable for those who can't manage on their own but that's taking the mick.

We all knew he was abusing the scheme but couldn't prove it, we found it very frustrating to be honest.

 

[Bayum]

Genuine question, not sure if it belongs on this thread: If bus companies don’t make the money needed to cover services that are heavily used by ENCTS pass holders, why do they run at such a high frequency? Does the 36 between Harrogate and Leeds have to be so frequent for example if it isn’t covering costs of the ENCTS pass holders?

 

[Eyersey468]

Genuine question, not sure if it belongs on this thread: If bus companies don’t make the money needed to cover services that are heavily used by ENCTS pass holders, why do they run at such a high frequency? Does the 36 between Harrogate and Leeds have to be so frequent for example if it isn’t covering costs of the ENCTS pass holders?

I suppose a lot depends on how many farepayers a route gets, and sometimes routes are run at high frequency to stop another operator from muscling in on the route

 

[Baxenden Bank]

What I consider abuse of the scheme is when people try and get someone who they have met at the bus stop on as their companion, and yes I have known that happen, or the lad a number of years ago with a companion pass who used to use it solely to get his mates free rides in and out of York, which isn't what the scheme was intended for.

I have received that benefit from a person who had such a pass. Ambleside to Windermere as I recall. They were very insistent even though I was expecting to pay and was prepared to pay.

I have offered that benefit to others, but not with an ENCTS pass. I bought, in Lancashire, their weekly adult passes (Red Rose Rambler?) which allowed +1 child. Didn't say whose child. So I went to my social event at college age and the teenage lad from next door went to the cadets for free.

 

[Tetchytyke]

the OAP and Disability parts of the scheme should be means tested.

The disability section is based on eligibility of certain benefits.

The question with the OAP section is whether means testing would cost more than it saves. Unless you restrict it to those who receive Pension Credit, which would cut out a lot of pensioners, it probably would. Means testing costs money to administer.

One thing that does get a lot of grumbling is when pass holders have to pay to catch a bus before 09.30 to get to a medical appointment. Many seem to have an attitude that that ought to be free.

If they have a hospital appointment letter then they can travel for free before 9.30. Doesn't apply for GP, etc, where there's more flexibility on time.

The problem with ENCTS has always been a question of whether the cost is justifiable. It's not a "free journey", it's that the taxpayer and farepayer picks up the tab. Often the farepayer picking up the tab with increased bus fares has less money than the pensioner, especially given the triple lock on pensions.

As for "entitled", I wouldn't say so, but equally trying to bin ENCTS would be political suicide.

 

[Eyersey468]

If they have a hospital appointment letter then they can travel for free before 9.30. Doesn't apply for GP, etc, where there's more flexibility on time.



As for "entitled", I wouldn't say so, but equally trying to bin ENCTS would be political suicide.

Depends on the council regarding hospital appointments some allow it others don't. I agree it would be political suicide to withdraw the scheme though

 

[owidoe]

I often hear (mostly retirement age) people grumbling about under-16s on the Tube sitting down for free when fare-paying adults are having to stand. I wonder how they'd react to the same logic being applied to their bus passes?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

For the record I am not against the free pass scheme, I do however feel that the bus companies should be paid a fair reimbursement for it and not the pittance they get, I also think the government made a mistake allowing local discretion on times as you end up with situations where one person can use their pass and someone else can't, to me either everyone should be able to use them or nobody should.

Maybe moving the 0930 start to 1000 across the country (England) may help and extra 30 minutes worth of income may just scrape in enough to keep the route going, obviously Wales and Scotland excepted as they'd do their own thing.

I suspect that those who are mostly likely to feel that they are entitled are those who only use it occasionally.

On one occasion I got on a fairly full bus around 09.00 (unusually early for me), popped my Rover on the scanner and sat down. Immediately the old boy next to me started whining to me that he’d had to pay to as it was before 09.00 and ‘It wasn’t fair’, with a suggestion that I was cheating. As telling him that I had a paid for Rover didn’t shut him up, I had to spend the rest of the journey listening this whingeing old f**t.

One thing that does get a lot of grumbling is when pass holders have to pay to catch a bus before 09.30 to get to a medical appointment. Many seem to have an attitude that that ought to be free.

Just wait until October, I think the whingeing will increse especially when certain services are cut which will lead to passholders complaining that the 0930 into town has been cut and they're now expected to take the 1005 instead as the one before departs at 0900 and they have to pay.

 

[Gloster]

One problem I see from time to time, particularly at a particular stop that has a ten-minute frequency, is ENCTS holders hailing a bus several minutes before 09.30 and then either asking to be allowed on or trying their card and being astounded that it won’t register. They then get involved in a discussion with the driver or, sometimes, straightforwardly argue in the hope that they can hold up the bus until 09.30. I don’t know if it is company policy, but a number of drivers tell them that if they hold up the bus, he or she won’t allow them to travel anyway. Most then get off, but a few get on their high-horses and make none-too-veiled hints about complaining about the driver being rude.

There was also the situation some years back when the council decided that it would no longer reimburse for ENCTS-use on the open toppers and the bus company decided not to accept them. Cue outrage in some quarters because they would no longer be able to have their days out. (On one occasion a woman started arguing with the driver and pointing at me, sitting downstairs on the open topper as it was the next bus home, and almost shouting, ”You let him on. Why aren’t you letting me?”)

 

[Dai Corner]

One problem I see from time to time, particularly at a particular stop that has a ten-minute frequency, is ENCTS holders hailing a bus several minutes before 09.30 and then either asking to be allowed on or trying their card and being astounded that it won’t register. They then get involved in a discussion with the driver or, sometimes, straightforwardly argue in the hope that they can hold up the bus until 09.30. I don’t know if it is company policy, but a number of drivers tell them that if they hold up the bus, he or she won’t allow them to travel anyway. Most then get off, but a few get on their high-horses and make none-too-veiled hints about complaining about the driver being rude.

Colloquially know as Twirlies (am I too early?)

 

[820KDV]

ENCTS pass use in my area is at about 50% of pre-Covid levels, even though other users are back at about 80%. Passes just aren't being used. Some not at all, others much less than previously - we've been studying the data.

We are about to launch a campaign to promote the use of the pass as part of Catch the Bus Month as the funding mechanism works for us and it puts a few more £s in the operators bank account. Our fear is that if we can't stimulate usage then the cost of subsidising journeys / routes will be much greater.

We do currently have an 09.30 restriction, but we also have quite a long list of rural journeys which accept passes on specified journeys before 09.30, sometimes as early as 08.45 if the school journey has happened and the next bus isn't until about 10.00.

My mother recently had a hospital appointment which required her to board the bus 10 minutes or so ahead of 09.30, so she had money ready to pay as far as the next village which the bus would get to at about 09.35 - the driver just waved her on. I don't know if she scanned her pass at all, or whether the driver made a manual record on the machine once the time had passed but, push your luck and the driver might enforce the rules, show you want to do right and you might get a different reaction.

 

[175mph]

One problem I see from time to time, particularly at a particular stop that has a ten-minute frequency, is ENCTS holders hailing a bus several minutes before 09.30 and then either asking to be allowed on or trying their card and being astounded that it won’t register. They then get involved in a discussion with the driver or, sometimes, straightforwardly argue in the hope that they can hold up the bus until 09.30. I don’t know if it is company policy, but a number of drivers tell them that if they hold up the bus, he or she won’t allow them to travel anyway. Most then get off, but a few get on their high-horses and make none-too-veiled hints about complaining about the driver being rude.

There was also the situation some years back when the council decided that it would no longer reimburse for ENCTS-use on the open toppers and the bus company decided not to accept them. Cue outrage in some quarters because they would no longer be able to have their days out. (On one occasion a woman started arguing with the driver and pointing at me, sitting downstairs on the open topper as it was the next bus home, and almost shouting, ”You let him on. Why aren’t you letting me?”)

In Hull, I remember an East Yorkshire bus driver saying that for operational reasons, (I am assuming to help cut down on scenarios like you've stated above regarding holding the bus up) the ticket machines are set up to accept passes 5 minutes before 9:30. In reality, this is only usually an issue if an East Riding pass holder attempts to use their pass before 9:30 or any other out of area pass holders, since Hull pass holders have no time restrictions for journeys that start within the city boundary.

In my home county of North Lincolnshire, it is the same in allowing unrestricted pass usage as long as the journey starts within the county boundaries.

And regarding what one person said about being surprised at operators not asking a pass holder to state their destination, Scunthorpe based Hornsbys have that policy, I posted a thread about it a while back. But even on Stagecoach buses, elderly people usually state their destination as they place their passes on the ticket machine.

 

[HullRailMan]

I’ve had it at Beverley (and Bridlington) bus station a number of times where I’ll be stood at the relevant bus stand when, as the bus comes in, you get swamped by old ladies acting (and looking) like a heard of sheep. Now there is very much an entitled edge to them basically trying to push in. I remember one lady telling me she should get to the front “because I’m a lot older than you, love” to which I replied “well I’m actually paying for my ride and have been stood here for ten minutes”. Truth is we both wanted the front seat upstairs and I wasn’t giving it up! Incidentally, for someone who said she needed to board first because she was so old, she got up the stairs like a whippet.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I hold the under 22s bus pass in Scotland, and I can’t explain how much of a lifesaver it’s been. I don’t know how much I’ve saved on tickets for commuting to college.

I have noticed elderly people (some, but not all) jump the queue, regardless of if other people have been waiting longer than them.

I do think that the under 22 pass has brought more ‘freeloaders’ - those who go on the buses and cause trouble because it’s free.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree the companion pass should be for one nominated person

I don't. So if we look at my parents once they aren't fit to go out alone - it could be me, it could be my sister, it could be her other half, or it could be their older son. Restricting it to one person would be prohibitive.

My views on the Two Together Railcard are probably already known (I don't support its existence - it is a bad excuse not to have a proper National Railcard for adults, and doesn't provide the flexibility of a car where you can give anyone a lift if you wish).