Are diesel powered or electric powered trains cheaper to run?

[JDi]

Is is cheaper to run diesel or electric trains?

Also, which of these has the higher top speed capability?

Is there a significant difference in the cost of running an electric train versus a diesel powered train?

 

[Jordeh]

It's cheaper to run and maintain electric trains.

They also typically have quicker acceleration and a higher top speeds (hence why the likes of Eurostar, TGVs, Japanese bullet trains etc are electric).

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Electric trains. They're cleaner, quieter, faster, usually a bit lighter too which means less energy is used.

Compare that to the gas guzzling menaces called the 80x series, which are real heavyweights and have both diesel & electric power and you'll see the fuel economy being ridiculously low, as they have big quite powerful engines, the electrical stuff like transformers, air con, large fuel tanks and waste tanks and the weight of the train itself to lug around.

I wouldn't want the fuel bill for a trip to Penzance & back for an 802 set.

 

[coppercapped]

Is is cheaper to run diesel or electric trains? Also, which of these has the higher top speed capability?

Before the question can be answered you need to supply more information.

What sort of operation are you asking about: a short branch line? An interurban link with a couple of shortish trains an hour? A metro style operation with an intensive service? A cross-country route? An intercity-type service at up to 200km/h? Faster?

Is the route already electrified? The costs of the installation and maintenance of the overheads has also to be considered. This is by no means free and has to be included in the train's operating costs.

Are you intending to use old, middle-aged or new trains?

So many questions...!

 

[northwichcat]

What sort of operation are you asking about: a short branch line? An interurban link with a couple of shortish trains an hour? A metro style operation with an intensive service? A cross-country route? An intercity-type service at up to 200km/h? Faster?

Is the route already electrified? The costs of the installation and maintenance of the overheads has also to be considered. This is by no means free and has to be included in the train's operating costs.

Indeed. Wiring the Barton Humber line and using electric trains would cost an eye watering sum for little benefit, so continuing to use diesel trains is a significantly cheaper option. On the other hand wiring North TPE and using electric trains will allow service improvements to be delivered more cost effectively than doing something like building new tunnels as electric trains can accelerate more quickly than diesel trains, so it's a cost effective option even if it won't be cheap.

 

[Class 170101]

Indeed. Wiring the Barton Humber line and using electric trains would cost an eye watering sum for little benefit, so continuing to use diesel trains is a significantly cheaper option. On the other hand wiring North TPE and using electric trains will allow service improvements to be delivered more cost effectively than doing something like building new tunnels as electric trains can accelerate more quickly than diesel trains, so it's a cost effective option even if it won't be cheap.

However I wonder if tram Train might be cheaper and if it certain lightly used routes were integrated into their main centres whether it would be worth wiring routes like this one.

Clearly there was a scheme that made wiring the Paisley Canal line worthwhile and why it hasn't been extended to other lines such as Oxenholme to indermere to name but one I do not know.

 

[Master29]

Into developing better technology to make newer trains more efficient to minimise price increases, or towards electrification of more track, or as extra profit. All are acceptable as it is a business which is designed to make a profit.

Alas the capitalist view to a tee but to be fair the railways were extended in the UK for primarily that reason. This country has lived of Brunels successful creation for too long. he has become a rod for the nations back in that there has been virtually no progress since then line wise.

 

[northwichcat]

However I wonder if tram Train might be cheaper and if it certain lightly used routes were integrated into their main centres whether it would be worth wiring routes like this one.

Clearly there was a scheme that made wiring the Paisley Canal line worthwhile and why it hasn't been extended to other lines such as Oxenholme to indermere to name but one I do not know.

Running tram-trains from Greenbank or Knutsford to Manchester via Sale was examined but found to be too expensive despite Greenbank having a good business case for additional services and platform lowering not being required (which was a major factor in why tram-trains from Huddersfield to Sheffield got dropped.)

 

[yorkie]

I have moved this thread into the correct forum, and split off the separate question Are rail fares influenced by the cost of running the trains? into a new thread, in the Fare Advice & Policy forum.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

For the electric side does it make any difference whether it's 750V DC (3rd rail) or 25KV AC (OLE)?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

For the electric side does it make any difference whether it's 750V DC (3rd rail) or 25KV AC (OLE)?

Oh yes. The difference between a DC 450 and a AC 350 is phenomenonal, the 350 takes off really well, whereas the 450 on DC is terribly underpowered by comparison.

 

[edwin_m]

The third rail system wastes about 20% of its energy heating up the rails. 25kV only loses a couple of percent.

 

[northwichcat]

This has appeared in a document just made available on https://www.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk

A Member enquired about bi-mode trains pulling diesel engines, the costs and impacts. The Member asked what the cost per mile was versus an electric train. The Head of Rail advised that robust answers from Government were required, analysis had to be undertaken and seriously considered. Members would be kept informed moving forward.

 

[mallard]

Diesels are far more expensive to run than electrics. It's been quoted that 40% of VTWC's traction costs are diesel fuel for their 221s despite them being less than 15% of the carriages and being used far less intensively than the 390s (which are themselves at the upper end of the running costs for EMUs).

 

[HSTEd]

Electric trains crush diesel trains in just about every performance category.

Even a modern high power unit with software limited performance operating on third rail will still leave almost all diesel units in the dust.
And third rail is often attacked for being inferior to 25kV in performance and economics terms.

Electricity is pure work when purchased, diesel is merely heat that must be converted into work. Considering that even the current price of grid electricity (even at a much maligned £92.50/MWh strike price for Hinkley Point C) is equivalent to £1/litre diesel when used for pure heating, the benefits soon become clear.

Even read diesel costs is 45p/L.
So if end to end efficiency is less than 45%, even the terrible deal that is Hinkley Point will be cheaper than diesel.
And considering losses in transport and such, it almost inevitably is less than 45%, much less.

 

[northwichcat]

Diesels are far more expensive to run than electrics. It's been quoted that 40% of VTWC's traction costs are diesel fuel for their 221s despite them being less than 15% of the carriages and being used far less intensively than the 390s (which are themselves at the upper end of the running costs for EMUs).

Voyagers are very powerful DEMUs, so their fuel consumption is not typical of a DMU. There was a claim not that long ago that track access charges for 390s are disproportionally cheap considering how much wear a 125mph tilting train puts on the track. Do you recall seeing how much the 'Eurostar' sets costed to operate on GNER services?

 

[fowler9]

What are the new Hitachi units like when they aren't dragging diesel engines around?

 

[DarloRich]

Is is cheaper to run diesel or electric trains?

Also, which of these has the higher top speed capability?

Is there a significant difference in the cost of running an electric train versus a diesel powered train?

Answer: it depends.

 

[northwichcat]

Electric trains crush diesel trains in just about every performance category.

Even a modern high power unit with software limited performance operating on third rail will still leave almost all diesel units in the dust.

That might be true but it's not really relevant to a thread about cost effectiveness by itself.

 

[HSTEd]

That might be true but it's not really relevant to a thread about cost effectiveness by itself.

Good point, as such I will edit the post to add the corrolary.

If even a form of electric traction often attacked for being inefficient can still produce superior performance to diesel, this demonstrates just how enormously superior electric traction is.

 

[6Gman]

For the electric side does it make any difference whether it's 750V DC (3rd rail) or 25KV AC (OLE)?

So will that mean different fare scales north and south of Blackfriars?

 

[northwichcat]

If even a form of electric traction often attacked for being inefficient can still produce superior performance to diesel, this demonstrates just how enormously superior electric traction is.

If the wires aren't there then there's a huge expense required before you can allow electric trains to use the line and whether it's justifiable to spend that huge amount on wiring the line varies from line to line. Obviously if the electrics are already there for the whole route then there's rarely justification for using DMUs.

 

[fowler9]

Does anyone know for what percentage of its journey does a 185 run under the wires from Liverpool to Newcastle?

 

[47802]

Does anyone know for what percentage of its journey does a 185 run under the wires from Liverpool to Newcastle?

V Roughly its over 60% hence bring on the Bi-mode plus they will supposedly be extended to Edinburgh which will make even more sense assuming the sort out the Power Supply issues

 

[northwichcat]

V Roughly its over 60% hence bring on the Bi-mode plus they will supposedly be extended to Edinburgh which will make even more sense assuming the sort out the Power Supply issues

They'll be 2 x Newcastle services an hour once the service is recast. The existing service (ex Liverpool) will be extended to Edinburgh, an hourly Airport-Newcastle service will also be reintroduced.

 

[Julia]

That might be true but it's not really relevant to a thread about cost effectiveness by itself.

It is very relevant if the difference in performance means you can complete the same number of journeys with fewer units...

 

[northwichcat]

It is very relevant if the difference in performance means you can complete the same number of journeys with fewer units...

Conversely you might need 4 EMUs to replace 3 DMUs if switching one route to electric means there's less interworking options.

 

[HSTEd]

If the wires aren't there then there's a huge expense required before you can allow electric trains to use the line and whether it's justifiable to spend that huge amount on wiring the line varies from line to line. Obviously if the electrics are already there for the whole route then there's rarely justification for using DMUs.

Since essentially all electric trains are much cheaper to operate than diesel, and the differences between them seem to be relatively minor.... the only parameter of importance is the cost to achieve electric operation on a given route.
Which means the primary optimisation that can be achieved is to drive down the capital cost of installations......

 

[northwichcat]

Which means the primary optimisation that can be achieved is to drive down the capital cost of installations......

Overall electric services are more reliable than diesel ones despite more external factors which can affect electric ones e.g. a power cut or the wires coming down. If you move towards cheap infrastructure to bring down the cost of installation, you could potentially find reliability doesn't improve when electric takes over from diesel or alternatively the infrastucture wears out more quickly meaning it's not cheaper in the long term.

 

[rebmcr]

Overall electric services are more reliable than diesel ones despite more external factors which can affect electric ones e.g. a power cut or the wires coming down. If you move towards cheap infrastructure to being down the cost of installation, you could potentially find reliability doesn't improve when electric takes over from diesel or alternatively the infrastucture wears out more quickly meaning it's not cheaper in the long term.

Essentially the ECML strategy vs. the GWML strategy — both of their bad points of course having been widely discussed on here.