Are e-tickets the way forward?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It does amuse me that someone who is such a proponent for paper tickets because “they’ve been used for years” is member of a railway forum on that newfangled technology called the internet. People used to argue with each other for years face to face!

That use of the internet in my case (now at the age of 77) is covered by the freedom of choice to purchase any product so offered that is lawfully merchandised. In my case, it is a top-of-the-range HP Pavilion desktop computer, bought some years ago as a present for my 72nd birthday by my twin sons. I did not join any website until 2011, the year after I took retirement and as I suffered from a stroke in July 2012, my consultant was happy to suggest that I continued to do so, as it was a method of keeping my brain active. Ten years have elapsed since then and I am still a reasonably active member of this website.

People use smart phones these days (which is something of a mis-nomer) as the telephone function appears to be but a minor facility on them to do all these wonderful extra tasks such as having train ticket information, but these smart phones are bought at a cost which a viewing of some in the shop window of a large branch of one of the major players in the market were "eye-opening".

 

[nedchester]

That use of the internet in my case (now at the age of 77) is covered by the freedom of choice to purchase any product so offered that is lawfully merchandised. In my case, it is a top-of-the-range HP Pavilion desktop computer, bought some years ago as a present for my 72nd birthday by my twin sons. I did not join any website until 2011, the year after I took retirement and as I suffered from a stroke in July 2012, my consultant was happy to suggest that I continued to do so, as it was a method of keeping my brain active. Ten years have elapsed since then and I am still a reasonably active member of this website.

People use smart phones these days (which is something of a mis-nomer) as the telephone function appears to be but a minor facility on them to do all these wonderful extra tasks such as having train ticket information, but these smart phones are bought at a cost which a viewing of some in the shop window of a large branch of one of the major players in the market were "eye-opening".

I agree that the price of smart phones is high but look at this another way, the smart phone replaces so many other devices, camera (still and video), encyclopaedia, letter writer, music player, Filofax, shop, payment facility, tickets for various uses, sat nav, weather forecast, newspaper and many more.

When brings me back to technology on the railway. If you can put so much technology into your pocket then it can’t come as a surprise that the same public that own that technology expect transport networks to evolve as technology evolves. The railway is in danger of not responding to change quick enough.

As an aside I wouldn’t be surprised to see some tightening of laws to combat the rail unions in the Queen’s Speech………one of the reasons I have thought that the rail unions need to be more pragmatic.

 

[AlterEgo]

E-tickets are now the most popular form of ticket delivery, and that is despite them not even being made available on all flows yet. Anyone who says they aren't the future is wrong and people who think there should only be paper tickets to somehow "please the unions" are living in a different world.

 

[PeterC]

Personally I would prefer the convenience of a eticket when all checking is manual but a card ticket is so easy for getting through the barriers at a busy London terminus.

 

[Vespa]

I have used e tickets before and prefer them as I can print two copies one and a spare just in case and take photo of them as a back up to add to my phone album created for it, in any case my phone charging port is faulty and won't charge properly fortunately it's one of those with a swappable battery and I carry spare batteries with me, imagine if it's a sealed unit and your battery dies you've got problems....

Previously with old card tickets you had one copy and you don't want to lose them otherwise you would have to buy a new one, it's ok for a day trip somewhere but not if you're away for a week or two.

 

[geoffk]

They‘ve seen schemes such as Oyster PAYG and know it’s popular, but IMHO didn’t think about what it doesn’t do. I’ve always thought it doesn’t scale up nationally, it relies on all fares being singles, it doesn’t easily include the possibility of a first class fare, it’s not good for all railcard types. Also any scheme that relies on touches in and out will need gates almost everywhere, which needs people. Can it deal with differently priced but valid routes? Break of journey?

But you don't need gates for touch in - touch out, just a free-standing card reader which many LU stations have and it's common practice on the continent.

 

[swt_passenger]

But you don't need gates for touch in - touch out, just a free-standing card reader which many LU stations have and it's common practice on the continent.

So what do you charge someone who touches in but doesn’t touch out? What is the national equivalent of a TfL “maximum cash fare” for an unresolved journey going to be?

 

[43066]

I find the modern £5, £10 and £20 notes fit neatly in the section of my wallet. Any cash given in change is taken out at the end of the day is then checked and three £1 coins are kept in the coat and the remainder in a big glass jar at home that every so often, is emptied by a member of a charity that I have known for over forty years, which ensures the money goes to a good cause.

I have a couple of tenners in my wallet for emergencies which have been there for months! I always try to avoid using them so as not be given handfuls of change which my wallet has no space for and will end up in my pockets.

Fair point re. loose change being being given to charity, albeit contactless is replacing even this, with supermarkets and various other shops now allowing you to round your bill up to the nearest pound, with the difference going to charity. Even some buskers have contactless payment facilities for donations these days!

 

[Robertj21a]

You’ve repeatedly told the forum you rarely use the railways because you find them too expensive and you prefer to drive everywhere anyway. So how much do you really know about the “travel experience”?

And why do you care?



Indeed. Not everyone has one. I certainly don’t!

I use the railways fairly rarely as I find them too expensive, or frustratingly old fashioned and preferring to live in the past.
However, the availability of e-tickets is a welcome improvement which should help me, and others, to again try to enjoy the train travel experience.

 

[northwichcat]

On your point about disruption, it can also be easier to have electronic tickets when experiencing delays as you can get an automatic refund in some cases.

I had the option of registering for auto Delay Repay when I purchased a smart card season ticket. I didn't because while I did have a normal AM train and a normal PM train, there were occasions when I travelled on a different train. Unless you have an Advance ticket I don't see any advantage of auto Delay Repay. I presume you didn't really mean auto refund as I certainly wouldn't want a refund on an advance ticket if the train was cancelled and I still intended to travel, I'd want Delay Repay, otherwise I'd have to purchase a new full price ticket that would cost more than the refund.

 

[Llandudno]

I agree that the price of smart phones is high but look at this another way, the smart phone replaces so many other devices, camera (still and video), encyclopaedia, letter writer, music player, Filofax, shop, payment facility, tickets for various uses, sat nav, weather forecast, newspaper and many more.

When brings me back to technology on the railway. If you can put so much technology into your pocket then it can’t come as a surprise that the same public that own that technology expect transport networks to evolve as technology evolves. The railway is in danger of not responding to change quick enough.

As an aside I wouldn’t be surprised to see some tightening of laws to combat the rail unions in the Queen’s Speech………one of the reasons I have thought that the rail unions need to be more pragmatic.

Buy a second hand smart phone off eBay for about £70-£80 then a monthly contract for about £10 including a decent data allowance, unlimited texts and hundreds of free minutes talk time per month.

 

[northwichcat]

Buy a second hand smart phone off eBay for about £70-£80 then a monthly contract for about £10 including a decent data allowance, unlimited texts and hundreds of free minutes talk time per month.

You can buy new smart phones for around £100. They might not be as advanced but they will come with a manufacturer's guarantee, reducing the risk of having to buy a new one in under 12 months time.

A phone contract requires a credit check. Some people may fail these and it's advisable not to enter in to a new credit agreement, just before making a big application e.g. a loan for a new car or a mortgage. There's alternatives, like SMARTY, VOXI and Lebara, offering a hybrid between PAYG and pay monthly - no credit check and a rolling 1 month contract but you need to prepay for any 'out of allowance' use.

However, if someone isn't sold on the idea, they aren't going to be keen on being forced to get one to use the train or being penalised for not having one. They may even give up on using the train instead. Warrington's Own Buses gives a £1 discount on day tickets if you buy one in their app. This pleases some people and angers others.

 

[py_megapixel]

What problem do guards actually have with checking e-tickets? Surely it's just the same job as checking paper tickets, but instead of reading the ticket you point a barcode scanner at it. What's so hard about that?

 

[Watershed]

What problem do guards actually have with checking e-tickets? Surely it's just the same job as checking paper tickets, but instead of reading the ticket you point a barcode scanner at it. What's so hard about that?

It's easier and faster than manual checks, really. It's just that they are unhappy at the fact that they are getting less in commission, due to the reduction in onboard ticket sales. I'd say that's a reasonable complaint, given that the reduction has been partly caused by things the company has done (e.g. introducing Penalty Fares).

Ultimately this is just an ancillary part of a dispute about pay.

 

[py_megapixel]

It's easier and faster than manual checks, really. It's just that they are unhappy at the fact that they are getting less in commission, due to the reduction in onboard ticket sales. I'd say that's a reasonable complaint, given that the reduction has been partly caused by things the company has done (e.g. introducing Penalty Fares).

Ultimately this is just an ancillary part of a dispute about pay.

I think it's nonsensical that guards get commission for onboard sales where TOC policy is that tickets shouldn't be sold onboard if at all possible. It's a direct financial incentive for guards not to apply that policy!

 

[geoffk]

So what do you charge someone who touches in but doesn’t touch out? What is the national equivalent of a TfL “maximum cash fare” for an unresolved journey going to be?

How does it work in, say, France or Germany, where I've seen these validators on platforms (or sometimes on the train itself)? I presume their systems depend more on on-train ticket checks and you'll get a fine if you haven't validated your ticket before boarding.

 

[youngiecj]

It's easier and faster than manual checks, really. It's just that they are unhappy at the fact that they are getting less in commission, due to the reduction in onboard ticket sales. I'd say that's a reasonable complaint, given that the reduction has been partly caused by things the company has done (e.g. introducing Penalty Fares).

Ultimately this is just an ancillary part of a dispute about pay.

Disagree, for me personally it has nothing to do with pay. I tend to find there are more people trying to pull a fast one with E-Tickets as there are various ways of getting refunds etc.

Then there is the whole my phone has died argument. And length of time it takes people to find them.

However if everyone has an E-ticket with no issues and they are ready to be scanned a ticket check is rather nice and fast!

 

[northwichcat]

How does it work in, say, France or Germany, where I've seen these validators on platforms (or sometimes on the train itself)? I presume their systems depend more on on-train ticket checks and you'll get a fine if you haven't validated your ticket before boarding.

Other countries have a system where paper tickets had to be validated (by getting a date and time stamp pre-boarding) otherwise they would be invalid. You effectively have to do what an onboard ticket inspector might do in the UK.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2022 ==

However if everyone has an E-ticket with no issues and they are ready to be scanned a ticket check is rather nice and fast!

From my experience that's almost impossible. Even if everyone has a ticket purchased in advance, ready to be scanned, but someone asks the guard a question which requires he/she to check something, then you find your phone screen has gone black and you have to wake it up again with a PIN or fingerprint and possibly reopen the ticket as well.

 

[43066]

I find them too expensive, or frustratingly old fashioned and preferring to live in the past.

I’m not sure many people would consider “frustratingly old fashioned” to be a fair or accurate description of a railway that now has a huge amount of brand new rolling stock, commissioned over the last few years, and indeed has just gone through its most significant programme of modernisation since the Victorian era. Crossrail (opening imminently) was Europe’s largest construction project for much of its build, indeed I’m potentially about to buy a property on the strength of its connectivity…

The unions also have no objection to e-tickets as a concept, as far as I’m aware? Indeed they’ve been around for ages.

Buses on the other hand, now there’s a transport mode in terminal decline (outside of London)…

What problem do guards actually have with checking e-tickets?

I'd say that's a reasonable complaint, given that the reduction has been partly caused by things the company has done (e.g. introducing Penalty Fares).

Indeed. It does appear that certain forum members are (perhaps wilfully?) ignoring the issue at hand. The RMT certainly have their moments, but they have a very valid point here.

 

[johncrossley]

Buy on train as an upgrade? Perhaps scan the entry door to first class and it reads the ticket for the journey you have, say Wigan to Warrington, standard fare and deducts the money automatically from the linked bank account.

On Dutch Railways, you can upgrade to first class on the train by using an app.

 

[Dai Corner]

On Dutch Railways, you can upgrade to first class on the train by using an app.

Unless you don't have a suitable, charged device, of course

 

[PeterC]

So what do you charge someone who touches in but doesn’t touch out? What is the national equivalent of a TfL “maximum cash fare” for an unresolved journey going to be?

Same system as TfL, you don't have a standard maximum fare.

Longer distance services have on board checks so you set the station limit to the longest of the common destinations on unchecked routes. On board checks reset to appropriate start and end destinations.

If the traveller benefits from a failure to carry out on board checks then that is the railway's problem.

 

[nedchester]

I see no reason why all tickets including things like rovers can’t be in e-ticket form

 

[johncrossley]

I see no reason why all tickets including things like rovers can’t be in e-ticket form

They should be easier to put in e-ticket form than regular tickets. Bus companies are more likely to have e-tickets as Rovers than singles or returns.

 

[Howardh]

Can anyone clarify this; an e-ticket is one that gets sent to your PC/laptop/phone by email, you click on the link provided which is then downloaded to "downloads" where you can open and print off?

But if you go to the phone's downloads it should also be there in m (mobile) form? Id fo can that be used just like an m-ticket; so no printing and no paper?

 

[py_megapixel]

But if you go to the phone's downloads it should also be there in m (mobile) form? Id fo can that be used just like an m-ticket; so no printing and no paper?

It won't be in the downloads folder on your phone unless you go into your email app and save it from there.

To use it like an m-ticket (i.e. without going through your email) you should download the app of whichever company you bought the ticket from, and it should appear in there. (Not all retailers have apps though, so make sure you pick one that does)

 

[Watershed]

Can anyone clarify this; an e-ticket is one that gets sent to your PC/laptop/phone by email, you click on the link provided which is then downloaded to "downloads" where you can open and print off?

But if you go to the phone's downloads it should also be there in m (mobile) form? Id fo can that be used just like an m-ticket; so no printing and no paper?

E-ticket refers to a mode-agnostic ticket - i.e. it can be displayed as a PDF on a phone/laptop etc., or printed off. Some retailers also allow you to display the e-ticket within their app. The fundamental difference is that unlike an m-ticket, it doesn't require activation prior to use, and it isn't locked to any one device or app.

 

[PeterC]

E-ticket refers to a mode-agnostic ticket - i.e. it can be displayed as a PDF on a phone/laptop etc., or printed off. Some retailers also allow you to display the e-ticket within their app. The fundamental difference is that unlike an m-ticket, it doesn't require activation prior to use, and it isn't locked to any one device or app.

And does it get you through the barriers at Warerloo as quickly as putting a card ticket into the slot?

 

[TUC]

Not if you don't have a mobile phone or your mobile phone runs out of power. You don't need any power for a hard ticket in your pocket. It's also useful for writing endorsements on if you experience disruption and need to be passed on an un-valid service. You can't do that with a mobile phone ticket.

Rail enthusiasts seem to be extraordinarily prone to their phones running out of power, judging by the number of times this comment is made.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2022 ==

As has been stated, Senior Conductors and RMT are not happy about scanning being added to the SC's duties and the TOC should keep relations with the union good and free of tension. People have been using paper tickets since the railways began and SCs have been happily examining those tickets, so I don't see why the TOCs would change something that works well and cause upset amongst staff.

It is not 'adding' to anyone's duties. It is doing exactly the same job a different way. The same kind of change that the rest of us just calmly go on with around 20 years ago.

 

[duncanp]

These days I usually buy train tickets online, select the E-ticket option, and print off the PDF file of the ticket that is e-mailed to me.

That way I have a physical ticket in my hand before I start a journey, so no worries about the phone battery being dead, or the app not working, or the system being down when I go to collect the ticket from a ticket machine.

During on board ticket inspections, the guard just scans the barcode on the ticket with a small hand held device, which beeps if the ticket is valid. I can't see that this is any more onerous for the guard than checking card tickets by visual inspection.

There should always be an option for someone to purchase tickets at the station, to collect tickets at the station, or to have tickets delivered to them, so that people without a smartphone are not put at a disadvantage.