Are Scotrail HSTs getting buffet cars?

[BRX]

Any working buffet areas yet?

 

[hexagon789]

Any working buffet areas yet?

No, unfortunately and still a bit shy of catering staff anyway.

 

[Scotrail84]

Any working buffet areas yet?

I doubt this will happen now that they will be away in 5 years or less.

 

[Christmas]

I've noticed several of the trains I've travelled on recently have lightning faults with several tub3s out on each coach and lightning randomly going off when on the move. I'm aware of the half lightning buttons but these faults seem to be separate.

Also no sign of the buffets opening as someone mentioned earlier.

 

[scotraildriver]

I've noticed several of the trains I've travelled on recently have lightning faults with several tub3s out on each coach and lightning randomly going off when on the move. I'm aware of the half lightning buttons but these faults seem to be separate.

Also no sign of the buffets opening as someone mentioned earlier.

Because the roofs are totally corroded and water is getting everywhere. The set HA02 that has just come back after years at Wabtec has all new roofs.

 

[Killingworth]

In June 2021 I took a number of pictures of HSTs at Pitlochry. I was shocked to see almost every carriage roof had many patches. At a distance and from a platform most in my pictures didn't look too bad but at least two were very badly streaked with rust. I've also noted this when at Waverley.

No wonder users experience showers and lighting faults!

Too much Dawlish exposure?

 

[Scotrail84]

Because the roofs are totally corroded and water is getting everywhere. The set HA02 that has just come back after years at Wabtec has all new roofs.

Talk of buffets being reinstated has been talked about by stewards as recently as last week but nothing concrete. I think its unlikely given these will be withdrawn in the coming years, but you never know of course.

 

[northscots]

I've noticed several of the trains I've travelled on recently have lightning faults with several tub3s out on each coach and lightning randomly going off when on the move. I'm aware of the half lightning buttons but these faults seem to be separate.

Also no sign of the buffets opening as someone mentioned earlier.

Buffets won't be coming back now the withdrawl of the HSTs has been announced. Why would anyone spend money on them. There's also a freeze on non-essential/safety critical recruitment so that will probably include hospitality staff.
There's been electrical gremlins on these sets since their refurbishment.

 

[Christmas]

Buffets won't be coming back now the withdrawl of the HSTs has been announced. Why would anyone spend money on them. There's also a freeze on non-essential/safety critical recruitment so that will probably include hospitality staff.
There's been electrical gremlins on these sets since their refurbishment.

The withdrawal and replacement isn't until 2030 though.

As for not recruiting staff, another dictat from Transport Scotland who get everything wrong. Shameful.

 

[northscots]

The withdrawal and replacement isn't until 2030 though.

As for not recruiting staff, another dictat from Transport Scotland who get everything wrong. Shameful.

They'll be gone before 2030.

The recruitment freeze was how the staff pay rise was financed. There was no money coming from elsewhere to cover it.

 

[PG]

They'll be gone before 2030.

AFAIK no decision has yet been made on what the replacements will be - new build or refurbished existing stock. Since the wheels of government turn somewhat slower than those on a HST I don't see them all going prior to 2030, unless you have knowledge otherwise...?

 

[BlueLeanie]

So, of the sets. Are there any that have a safe, operational buffet coach?

Surely it's not beyond the capability of them to lease the spaces to an independent commercial operator?

Boiler, couple of Nespresso coffee makers, selection of Barr and Tunnock's finest, along with a selection of pies and fudge doughnuts from Fisher & Donaldson.

Nespresso and Tunnock's Caramel Wafer. £7.50 you'd turn £500 before you got to the Forth Bridge.

 

[CJSwan]

So, of the sets. Are there any that have a safe, operational buffet coach?

Surely it's not beyond the capability of them to lease the spaces to an independent commercial operator?

Boiler, couple of Nespresso coffee makers, selection of Barr and Tunnock's finest, along with a selection of pies and fudge doughnuts from Fisher & Donaldson.

Nespresso and Tunnock's Caramel Wafer. £7.50 you'd turn £500 before you got to the Forth Bridge.

Considering how often many of the sets end up out of service, how many independent businesses would get fed up and abandon the project?

 

[Carlisle]

Plus the ongoing alcohol ban will be contributing factor to potentially poor revenue.

 

[Scotrail84]

They'll be gone before 2030.

The recruitment freeze was how the staff pay rise was financed. There was no money coming from elsewhere to cover it.

Not likely, there are very few current fleets that can replace them anytime soon. New intercity trains are at least 10 years off as well.

 

[northscots]

Not likely, there are very few current fleets that can replace them anytime soon. New intercity trains are at least 10 years off as well.

Plenty of speculation they'll be replaced in the short term by 222 as they become available, followed by a long term bi-mode replacement as electrification gradually improves.

So, of the sets. Are there any that have a safe, operational buffet coach?

Surely it's not beyond the capability of them to lease the spaces to an independent commercial operator?

Boiler, couple of Nespresso coffee makers, selection of Barr and Tunnock's finest, along with a selection of pies and fudge doughnuts from Fisher & Donaldson.

Nespresso and Tunnock's Caramel Wafer. £7.50 you'd turn £500 before you got to the Forth Bridge.

None of the sets are usable. They don't have functioning power supplies and the water supply hasn't been touched in years so will need thorough cleaning/treatment for legionnaires. Also at times, significant numbers of rakes are out of service for various reasons so no independent operator would be interested in running them with no level of certainty they'll be operating.

 

[Scotrail84]

Plenty of speculation they'll be replaced in the short term by 222 as they become available, followed by a long term bi-mode replacement as electrification gradually improves.


None of the sets are usable. They don't have functioning power supplies and the water supply hasn't been touched in years so will need thorough cleaning/treatment for legionnaires. Also at times, significant numbers of rakes are out of service for various reasons so no independent operator would be interested in running them with no level of certainty they'll be operating.

Thats all it is though. Any stop gap sets will need to be configured for ScotRails method of work. Door control panels for guards etc.

 

[northscots]

Thats all it is though. Any stop gap sets will need to be configured for ScotRails method of work. Door control panels for guards etc.

I know, which is exactly why I've stated that. Any long term brand new replacement is unlikely to be ready before HSTs go off lease

 

[Charged up]

The withdrawal and replacement isn't until 2030 though.

As for not recruiting staff, another dictat from Transport Scotland who get everything wrong. Shameful.

Totally agree with that opinion - Transport Scotland is too interested in grandstanding with wasteful electrification when they could have funded much better value for money rolling stock improvements. If TS/ SRH + ScotRail had already been well on their way to procuring new electric and battery hybrid fleets there would be a clear strategy and smooth introduction programme over the next decade to replace all the 35+ year old trains.

This would have included a new hybrid inter-city fleet which would have been fully tested across the country to allow an early exit for the HSTs which have been a millstone around ScotRail's operation since they were brought here.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Plus the ongoing alcohol ban will be contributing factor to potentially poor revenue.

Good thinking. You are probably correct.

 

[Transilien]

Knowing what a disaster the HSTs have been I think it would have been better to stick with the 170s just with a heavy refurbishment and perhaps an upgrade to 4 carriages until Transport for Scotland could afford new stock that was properly Inter-City. The HSTs should have been put out of regular service once the English operators were done with them. In my opinion, the only reason that the HSTs were given a second life despite their age was that they are famous and as a result the Scottish government got good PR for bringing back these well remembered trains.

 

[Killingworth]

Knowing what a disaster the HSTs have been I think it would have been better to stick with the 170s just with a heavy refurbishment and perhaps an upgrade to 4 carriages until Transport for Scotland could afford new stock that was properly Inter-City. The HSTs should have been put out of regular service once the English operators were done with them. In my opinion, the only reason that the HSTs were given a second life despite their age was that they are famous and as a result the Scottish government got good PR for bringing back these well remembered trains.

Post 5 "Because the roofs are totally corroded and water is getting everywhere. The set HA02 that has just come back after years at Wabtec has all new roofs." is backed up by my pictures in Post 6.

Did whoever arranged the deal look up there? Did they survey enough carriages to know what they were letting themselves in for? I'd noticed corroded GWR HST coach bodies from platform level 8 or 9 years ago. Surely whoever negotiated the Wabtec refurbishment contracts should have taken all this into account. It was a doable restoration project but there wasn't enough time and resource for all that should have been done within the tight budget. If it had been we might have seen trains to be proud of like the Blue Pullman sets operated by LSL - but they must have cost a fortune to prepare.

 

[D365]

Thats all it is though. Any stop gap sets will need to be configured for ScotRails method of work. Door control panels for guards etc.

Do the Class 222s not have guard panels?

 

[Scotrail84]

Do the Class 222s not have guard panels?

I don't know as I've never been on one. I thought they were the same set up as a voyager as in docco. Someone on here will know for sure though.

 

[Indigo Soup]

In my opinion, the only reason that the HSTs were given a second life despite their age was that they are famous and as a result the Scottish government got good PR for bringing back these well remembered trains.

It does seem to have been as simple as the average passenger on the long-distance routes knowing three types of train exist:

• Slightly rubbish Scotrail trains with three carriages, doors in the wrong place, and lots of noise.
• The nice train that goes to London, with lots of space, the doors in the right place, no noisy engines under the carriages, and a buffet car.

When asked, passengers were clear that they liked the latter a lot more than the former. And with the HSTs being replaced by IETs in the right timescale, they looked like a quick, cheap and easy way to improve service.

Reality, of course, demonstrated that they were not quick, cheap or easy. But at the time Abellio got the franchise and the HSTs were announced, I was a weekly user of the services, and it seemed like a really good idea at the time.

For what it's worth, the original Intercity Express Programme envisaged Transport Scotland having a requirement for 29 five-car sets. Quite what they envisaged doing with four electric-only trains, I don't know. But the 25 bimodes and self-powered trains (became bimodes, of course) matches quite nicely with the 26 HSTs needed for a full service on all five routes.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Do the Class 222s not have guard panels?

I don't know as I've never been on one. I thought they were the same set up as a voyager as in docco. Someone on here will know for sure though.

They do indeed have full release/close guard panels, as seen in this training video at 12:43 -

The only difference to current ScotRail diesel fleets is (uniquely) the driver on a 222 has to manually select the length of the platform in the cab before the panel will arm, so presumably this will need thrashing out with the relevant ASLEF reps before they enter service anywhere other than EMR

 

[Scotrail84]

They do indeed have full release/close guard panels, as seen in this training video at 12:43 -

The only difference to current ScotRail diesel fleets is (uniquely) the driver on a 222 has to manually select the length of the platform in the cab before the panel will arm, so presumably this will need thrashing out with the relevant ASLEF reps before they enter service anywhere other than EMR

A mod would be required to remove that feature I reckon.

 

[Starmill]

It does seem to have been as simple as the average passenger on the long-distance routes knowing three types of train exist:

• Slightly rubbish Scotrail trains with three carriages, doors in the wrong place, and lots of noise.
• The nice train that goes to London, with lots of space, the doors in the right place, no noisy engines under the carriages, and a buffet car.

When asked, passengers were clear that they liked the latter a lot more than the former. And with the HSTs being replaced by IETs in the right timescale, they looked like a quick, cheap and easy way to improve service.

Reality, of course, demonstrated that they were not quick, cheap or easy. But at the time Abellio got the franchise and the HSTs were announced, I was a weekly user of the services, and it seemed like a really good idea at the time.

For what it's worth, the original Intercity Express Programme envisaged Transport Scotland having a requirement for 29 five-car sets. Quite what they envisaged doing with four electric-only trains, I don't know. But the 25 bimodes and self-powered trains (became bimodes, of course) matches quite nicely with the 26 HSTs needed for a full service on all five routes.

It's quite a sobering case re-reading the threads from the time of the announcement.

Frankly I'm amazed that there haven't been more incidences of things like water leaking from ceilings, main lighting complete failures, toilet tanks causing increased weight stress, air conditioning faults, slips and trips by passengers stepping into the horribly narrow and high external door thresholds, you name it. The trains are badly aged indeed.

Just think of the hundreds of millions of pounds of public money that's gone into delivering this service.

Totally agree with that opinion - Transport Scotland is too interested in grandstanding with wasteful electrification when they could have funded much better value for money rolling stock improvements.

Would you have preferred to continue with the industrial action all these months?