Are some trains too long?

[Crithylum]

I am typing this now on a Stansted Express service where I have the front 4 carriages just to myself (and the driver). I appreciate excess capacity can sometimes be useful, but surely this much is a waste of electricity?

 

[tram21]

I am typing this now on a Stansted Express service where I have the front 4 carriages just to myself (and the driver). I appreciate excess capacity can sometimes be useful, but surely this much is a waste of electricity?

I can imagine it would have been very busy earlier in the day/ at other times. Are you going towards Stansted or towards London?> As its mainly an airport service, the flows are dependent on flight times. If you are going towards Stansted, there won't be many flights left in the day, and it's the last weekend of half term, so not a particularly busy travel day away from the UK. If you'd done this journey a week ago, it would probably have been different!

So while the capacity might not be needed right now, it'll be needed during the day/ on the return journey!!

Also, it doesn't cost much more to run a longer train, if its that long anyway!

 

[NSEWonderer]

I am typing this now on a Stansted Express service where I have the front 4 carriages just to myself (and the driver). I appreciate excess capacity can sometimes be useful, but surely this much is a waste of electricity?

Trains are very efficient at what they do. Driver isn't going to be smashing in the power, more so as you say with a light train. Most of that time will be to get up to speed and put it into Coast.

The same train might not be busy right now but then tomorrow or next month it will be and there will be passengers complaining that its too short.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I am typing this now on a Stansted Express service where I have the front 4 carriages just to myself (and the driver). I appreciate excess capacity can sometimes be useful, but surely this much is a waste of electricity?

It's Stansted Express.

The back four will be full and standing most likely because people suffer from an allergy to walking with luggage.

I've been on many Stansted Express trains where the train loading diagram shows the back 5-6 carriages as full and people tweeting about it dangerously overcrowded whilst my carriage is at best 30% full.

Also loads are not totally predictable, flight delays, passport queues mean that the load is not as predictable as your average train.

 

[Crithylum]

I am heading towards Stansted (then straight back out to Cambridge). Someone boarded the third carriage at Tottenham Hale.

 

[MikeWM]

Saturday evening Stansted Express services from London tend to be lightly loaded in my experience, that was one of the reasons I often used to go for them if I wasn't in a rush to get back to Cambridge/Ely after a day out in London.

The capacity tends to be well-used in the other direction however. See how many people get on when you arrive at Stansted...

 

[Taunton]

I am reminded of a newspaper letter complaining that in the morning peak there were no seats on the trains into London while they could see near-empty ones running in the other direction, and that those trains ought to be run towards London at that time instead ...

Likewise when some years ago platform extensions were being built in SE London to extend from 10 cars to 12, all at the country end, it was commented that the extra carriages were being provided at the wrong end of the train, they were needed at the other end

 

[brad465]

There are some Southeastern services in the middle of the day that are 10-cars which outside the peaks don't need to be, if space utilisation was the only consideration. However, I imagine there comes a point where the cost of chopping and changing formations regularly in the day costs as much as just allowing services to run in an excessively long formation (there's cost to ECS moves and extra drivers performing the extra moves, and station staff shutting down trains).

There is also finite capacity on the network in stations to change service lengths; Charing X platforms are a premium, whereas Cannon St has a glut, so the latter services are easier to short-form during the day. There are also not many stations outside of terminals with enough platform space to change lengths; Dartford is one of the best, but not everything terminates there, and what does may not sit there long enough to enable formation alterations. On the mainline however, changing train lengths are more common at the outer ends of the line, like Ashford and Ramsgate, as turnaround capacity is greater and depots/stabling exists nearby.

 

[Crithylum]

I've just walked the whole length of the train. The photo shows (the quietest part of) the busiest carriage. I appreciate that this is a very off peak flow, but the 720 operated services are still 10 cars. I assume it must be too much hassle to split them. I will see how busy the return trains are whilst waiting at Stansted.

(photo shows many unoccupied seats on a class 745)

 

[pokemonsuper9]

but the 720 operated services are still 10 cars. I assume it must be too much hassle to split them.

GA cut their 720s in half on the Southend services outside of the peak, but I would say keeping the full length for Stanstead Airport is probably more important (and I don't think there's any convenient sidings to put the split carriages into)

 

[tram21]

Likewise when some years ago platform extensions were being built in SE London to extend from 10 cars to 12, all at the country end, it was commented that the extra carriages were being provided at the wrong end of the train, they were needed at the other end

And these people have City jobs

 

[Sun Chariot]

I assume it must be too much hassle to split them.

it absolutely is - post #8 first paragraph explained why

 

[NSEWonderer]

I am reminded of a newspaper letter complaining that in the morning peak there were no seats on the trains into London while they could see near-empty ones running in the other direction, and that those trains ought to be run towards London at that time instead ...

Likewise when some years ago platform extensions were being built in SE London to extend from 10 cars to 12, all at the country end, it was commented that the extra carriages were being provided at the wrong end of the train, they were needed at the other end

 

[F Great Eastern]

If you walk to the front of the train, no matter what Stansted Express train you are on, the busiest of busy, you will always have a few seats to yourself.

In the old days when everyone used twitter I would laugh at the comments from those on my train who were going to contact their MP because the train was dangerously overcrowded. It was their own fault!

 

[Crithylum]

Return working similarly quiet (but slightly busier). Not sure who's idea it was to put all the escalators at one end.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Much of the energy consumed in moving a train is aerodynamic drag, which depends primarily on the frontal area - which is the same whether the train has two coaches or twelve.

Moreover, the trend seems to be towards longer units - I can recall ten-car trains on the Southern made up of 5x2HAP (all those redundant driving cabs and guard's vans!), where now units of eight, ten, or even twelve cars are common (eg Classes 700 and 701, and of course the Stansted Express). The reduction in complexity, and greater capacity, by having fewer cabs seems to have won out over the flexibility to allow shorter trains at quiet times, or to make one good train out of two failures, that is possible with trains made up of shorter units.

 

[jfowkes]

These are practically brand new trains. If they were full all the time, then that was a failure of planning as they should have been even longer, or more frequent.

New trains should have excess capacity to allow for passenger growth.

 

[Kite159]

The main issue with Stansted Connect (sorry 'Express') services is they tend to load heavily from the London end for Airport bound services, it doesn't help that the canopy at Tottenham Hale only extends around halfway on the northbound platform. So, especially if it's raining, passengers won't move towards the northern end where the trains will be generally quieter.

It's not just Stansted services, but some people don't walk down the platform. I can be on a 6 coach 159 formation heading into Waterloo, the rear coaches carrying half a dozen passengers with the front coach having people standing.

 

[Krokodil]

Likewise when some years ago platform extensions were being built in SE London to extend from 10 cars to 12, all at the country end, it was commented that the extra carriages were being provided at the wrong end of the train, they were needed at the other end

On some of the commuter services into Man Pic the front coach is often rammed with passengers desperate to be first to the gateline. Some woman was having a go at the Northern guard:
"You should put more carriages on"
The back coach is empty
"Not at the back, at the front"

Completely oblivious to the fact that you could add 12 coaches to the front and the front coach would still be rammed with people who want to be at the front. The guard eventually lost patience and walked off.

And these people have City jobs

Explains the state of the country

 

[dk1]

Not much can be done about fixed formation trains. You’ll find this a lot with Thameslink now they are all 8/12 car 700s on certain parts of the route/times of the day. It’s quite nice having all this additional capacity. The cost of electricity isn’t really something I’ve ever heard mentioned in over 40 years working on the passenger side of the railway.

The back half of 745s on the StanEx are often very busy leaving Liverpool Street and I have always assumed Tottenham Hale advise passengers to board nearer the front. Savvy commuters and Harlow/Stortford regulars must do that anyway.

 

[Magdalia]

I am typing this now on a Stansted Express service where I have the front 4 carriages just to myself (and the driver). I appreciate excess capacity can sometimes be useful, but surely this much is a waste of electricity?

In the case of the Stansted Express a very emphatic no.

Let's look at the data.

The Stansted Express is one of the busiest routes on the railway. In the ORR's list of busiest flows where one of the stations is outside London, Liverpool Street-Stansted Airport is top. Overall it is fifth, only behind four flows on the Elizabeth Line.

The Railway Data website uses the one way flows, where Liverpool Street-Stansted Airport is just under 3 million. Then add in about 850k journeys Tottenham Hale-Stansted Airport.

Furthermore, the Stansted Express doubles up as the main service to/from Bishops Stortford and Harlow Town. The former has one way flows of 573k with Liverpool Street and 207k with Tottenham Hale, the latter 333k and 174k.

Overall the Stansted Express moves at least 5 million people in each direction every year.

Obviously that demand isn't spread evenly through the day or week. The airport traffic depends on times of departing and arriving flights. The Bishops Stortford and Harlow Town traffic has a significant amount of commuting. The capacity has to cope with the maximum demand, not the average, and that is on weekday mornings not Saturday afternoons.

A few years ago Greater Anglia leased new trains for the Stansted Express. They went for 12 car units because intermediate cabs take up valuable space. This is particularly important for Stansted Express because lots of passengers have suitcases, not just rucksacks or tote bags, so the trains need more space for luggage.

This means that the only way to vary capacity is through number of trains. In the immediate aftermath of Covid this was done by running 2tph off peak instead of 4tph. Greater Anglia had to go back to 4tph off peak when demand recovered, particularly airport traffic.

 

[dk1]

In the case of the Stansted Express a very emphatic no.

Let's look at the data.

The Stansted Express is one of the busiest routes on the railway. In the ORR's list of busiest flows where one of the stations is outside London, Liverpool Street-Stansted Airport is top. Overall it is fifth, only behind four flows on the Elizabeth Line.

The Railway Data website uses the one way flows, where Liverpool Street-Stansted Airport is just under 3 million. Then add in about 850k journeys Tottenham Hale-Stansted Airport.

Furthermore, the Stansted Express doubles up as the main service to/from Bishops Stortford and Harlow Town. The former has one way flows of 573k with Liverpool Street and 207k with Tottenham Hale, the latter 333k and 174k.

Overall the Stansted Express moves at least 5 million people in each direction every year.

Obviously that demand isn't spread evenly through the day or week. The airport traffic depends on times of departing and arriving flights. The Bishops Stortford and Harlow Town traffic has a significant amount of commuting. The capacity has to cope with the maximum demand, not the average, and that is on weekday mornings not Saturday afternoons.

A few years ago Greater Anglia leased new trains for the Stansted Express. They went for 12 car units because intermediate cabs take up valuable space. This is particularly important for Stansted Express because lots of passengers have suitcases, not just rucksacks or tote bags, so the trains need more space for luggage.

This means that the only way to vary capacity is through number of trains. In the immediate aftermath of Covid this was done by running 2tph off peak instead of 4tph. Greater Anglia had to go back to 4tph off peak when demand recovered, particularly airport traffic.

It was also one of the first routes that the DfT agreed to as a no-brainer to revert back to its increased 7 days a week all day 15min frequency. Stansted Airport recovered very quickly after the pandemic and I think is now well above those days in terms of passenger numbers flying in/out.

 

[talldave]

On some of the commuter services into Man Pic the front coach is often rammed with passengers desperate to be first to the gateline. Some woman was having a go at the Northern guard:
"You should put more carriages on"
The back coach is empty
"Not at the back, at the front"

I believe these people come from somewhere called Facebook . One of the most depressing things about 2020 was the revelation of just how stupid so many people are!

 

[Magdalia]

I am typing this now on a Stansted Express service where I have the front 4 carriages just to myself (and the driver). I appreciate excess capacity can sometimes be useful, but surely this much is a waste of electricity?

More generally, there are very few trains that are too long, but lots that are too short.

As the Stansted Express example demonstrates, the way to regulate capacity is frequency of trains not length of trains.

Thameslink does this too: for example the Cambridge-Brighton service is 2tph most of the day but only 1tph in the evenings and on Sundays.

The amount saved by running 2 short trains instead of 2 long trains is tiny compared with the saving from running 1 long train instead of 2 long trains.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

I've always wondered why the attempt to match train length with capacity becomes an issue (how often do you need to fill to the extra carriages to make it worth the cost). Most of the cost I would imagine is in the staffing and up front in procuring the extra carriages, these are pretty fixed costs to run the train whether it's 2, 5 or 10 carriages.

In the stansted express situation it's clear the flexibility offered by having 12 carriage 745 has actually paid off many times over for Greater Anglia through being able to use them on the Norwich line as well, 12 carriages are very much needed on there and not just peak times either.

 

[Rescars]

I believe these people come from somewhere called Facebook . One of the most depressing things about 2020 was the revelation of just how stupid so many people are!

Perhaps these folk would find things more to their liking if the trains were run back to front?!

 

[357]

GA cut their 720s in half on the Southend services outside of the peak, but I would say keeping the full length for Stanstead Airport is probably more important (and I don't think there's any convenient sidings to put the split carriages into)

The advantage with the Southend route is that one end has a depot at Southend Victoria itself.

The West Anglia units would need to get to/from Ilford.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I am heading towards Stansted (then straight back out to Cambridge). Someone boarded the third carriage at Tottenham Hale.

Your opening post was at 21.15, very much off-peak.

I use Tottenham Hale sometimes in the middle of the day, also off-peak. Stansted Express trains usually pick up large numbers of passengers at Tottenham Hale when I'm there. It's a very busy station and the stream of passengers coming onto the down platform is almost continuous from early afternoon onwards. I have never seen a Stansted Express train pick up only one passenger at Tottenham Hale.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

TOCs will look at the loadings on a full diagram to see where extra capacity is needed. So where you have 2 or 3 units together they may only need the full capacity at a couple of points during the day with the units running with plenty of spare seats for the rest.
However, and as others have mentioned, it is easier to leave them together. If you split them you have to find somewhere to stable the unit(s) taken off.
Back in the day they would simply be left in a spare platform or carriage siding at a station, but with the network being so busy in modern times and more frequent services than thirty or so years ago, most stations do not have a spare platform that you can block with a stabled unit. In addition many carriage sidings at stations have been removed either to create extra platforms or to expand car parks.
So you're left with the option of running the units to a depot; but then you need empty stock paths and extra drivers.

So although it may look wasteful when trains are running half empty it is often the best option.
Plus on services where reservations are available it allows the TOC to sell more seats in advance whilst still having capacity for turn-up-and-go passengers.

 

[mrcheek]

yes, at some times of day trains are too long.

What do you want to do, abandon a few coaches on the way?
Or shorten them for the whole day, so that they are also overcrowded at times.

It happens.
Last train I was on, early morning Cardiff to Plymouth. Full all the way from Newport to Bristol. An entire carriage all to myself from Bristol to Weston-super-Mare