Are there any ‘Easy Win’ electrification projects that are worth looking at?

[zwk500]

Third rail in the South East - for example to Uckfield and the Ashford - Hastings line. Seems a no-brainer.

We've done this debate to death. Third rail isn't an easy win because 1. The power infrastructure around it isn't simple. 2. You still need to actually have somewhere to put the third rails (e.g. Sleepers with the 'pots') and 3. The railway authorities don't think it's safe.
Point 3 is a matter of some contention, which I don't wish to restart here.

 

[yorksrob]

Third rail in the South East - for example to Uckfield and the Ashford - Hastings line. Seems a no-brainer.

Absolutely !

We've done this debate to death. Third rail isn't an easy win because 1. The power infrastructure around it isn't simple. 2. You still need to actually have somewhere to put the third rails (e.g. Sleepers with the 'pots') and 3. The railway authorities don't think it's safe.
Point 3 is a matter of some contention, which I don't wish to restart here.

Just because @Sealink hasn't had the party line nonsense, doesn't make them wrong.

 

[zwk500]

Just because @Sealink hasn't had the party line nonsense, doesn't make them wrong.

It's not 'party line'. I've read the posts on here of people who've worked with third rail in person, and worked out that I don't know the risks better than people who work with it. Third rail CAN be used safely. That doesn't make it safe.

 

[yorksrob]

It's not 'party line'. I've read the posts on here of people who've worked with third rail in person, and worked out that I don't know the risks better than people who work with it. Third rail CAN be used safely. That doesn't make it safe.

Road transport can be used safely. That doesn't make it safe. What's your point ?

 

[Trainbike46]

Road transport can be used safely. That doesn't make it safe.

whether you like it or not, the fact is that installing new 3rd rail is rather hard due to the rules that are in place

 

[zwk500]

Road transport can be used safely. That doesn't make it safe. What's your point ?

The point is that people who know what they are doing have judged it to be not worth the risks unless in specific circumstances. Screaming that people are wrong on the internet doesn't change the fact that people are injured and killed on 3rd rail, and the risk of doing so on open mainline is higher than other systems and much higher than the benefits of the system.
There's a reason why bottom-contact is favoured worldwide.

 

[Trainbike46]

tbh, the easiest wins, based on this thread are in no particular order:

-didcot-oxford
-Windemere
-GWR extension to Bristol

and then there's loads of lines that should be electrified, but that aren't exactly easy wins because they're long/have complications/etc.

which includes things like the snow hill & chiltern lines, the southern diesel islands, etc.

 

[Annetts key]

Can we please not do the arguments about third rail again.

And in any event, it’s highly likely that whatever electrification is proposed be it third rail or OHL), any existing signalling system will need to be either modified (to make it compatible) or renewed. Than alone substantially increases the cost.

 

[yorksrob]

whether you like it or not, the fact is that installing new 3rd rail is rather hard due to the rules that are in place

Rules are there to be re-evaluated and changed.

 

[Trainbike46]

Can we please not do the arguments about third rail again.

And in any event, it’s highly likely that whatever electrification is proposed be it third rail or OHL), any existing signalling system will need to be either modified (to make it compatible) or renewed. Than alone substantially increases the cost.

which of course improves the relative case for projects where the signalling work has already been done, such as the GWR extensions

 

[yorksrob]

The point is that people who know what they are doing have judged it to be not worth the risks unless in specific circumstances. Screaming that people are wrong on the internet doesn't change the fact that people are injured and killed on 3rd rail, and the risk of doing so on open mainline is higher than other systems and much higher than the benefits of the system.
There's a reason why bottom-contact is favoured worldwide.

You're the one who was "screaming that people are wrong on the internet" when you responded to @Sealink .

Anyhow, isn't the issue of new third rail currently under review, so the people that know might still come to their senses ?

 

[Sealink]

What have I done?

 

[yorksrob]

What have I done?

Instigated a sensible debate

 

[Western Sunset]

What you need is a very large city, indeed a regional hub, with direct links to London of at least two trains an hour, plus direct half-hourly services to another large capital city which has already had the most awkward part to be electrified (through a long underwater tunnel) already completed.

I give you Bristol...

 

[zwk500]

What have I done?

Instigated a sensible debate

For the saving of time, see previous discussions:

RSSB looking at possible extension of 3rd rail electrification

The Rail Safety and Standards Board is looking for consultancy support for a project that aims to: "• Support the decarbonisation of traction in regions with a predominant 750V DC top contact third rail system by identifying the potential to remove diesel services by either enabling extensions...

www.railforums.co.uk

Should third rail be considered again for future electrification projects?

In terms of rail electrification projects which are either still in the pipeline without any start on infrastructure, or lines which could/should be electrified in the next 10-15 years, should the option of 3rd rail be considered again in view of the costs and time of work to install overhead...

www.railforums.co.uk

How dangerous is the third rail?

I have recently started work as a PTS trackman but I'm finding that my fear of the third rail is hindering me... Obviously in training, I was taught to treat it as live and dangerous at all times and any contact with it could be fatal. Coupled with the fear that was put into me as a child...

www.railforums.co.uk

Third Rail - Safety on Track?

I've recently been sponsored by a rail company to become a trackworker, but as a born worrier, the third rail is putting me off. What safety measures are put in place when you're working near one, as we've not got that far on the course yet, all i know is, it can be live and you gotta step over...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[yorksrob]

For the saving of time, see previous discussions:

RSSB looking at possible extension of 3rd rail electrification

The Rail Safety and Standards Board is looking for consultancy support for a project that aims to: "• Support the decarbonisation of traction in regions with a predominant 750V DC top contact third rail system by identifying the potential to remove diesel services by either enabling extensions...

www.railforums.co.uk

Should third rail be considered again for future electrification projects?

In terms of rail electrification projects which are either still in the pipeline without any start on infrastructure, or lines which could/should be electrified in the next 10-15 years, should the option of 3rd rail be considered again in view of the costs and time of work to install overhead...

www.railforums.co.uk

How dangerous is the third rail?

I have recently started work as a PTS trackman but I'm finding that my fear of the third rail is hindering me... Obviously in training, I was taught to treat it as live and dangerous at all times and any contact with it could be fatal. Coupled with the fear that was put into me as a child...

www.railforums.co.uk

Third Rail - Safety on Track?

I've recently been sponsored by a rail company to become a trackworker, but as a born worrier, the third rail is putting me off. What safety measures are put in place when you're working near one, as we've not got that far on the course yet, all i know is, it can be live and you gotta step over...

www.railforums.co.uk

We can reference all of these discussions, however as I've mentioned previously, the situation is still currently under review.

 

[zwk500]

We can reference all of these discussions, however as I've mentioned previously, the situation is still currently under review.

And it's currently in a 'which Christmas' situation. You'll notice I put the discussion of that review on top

 

[yorksrob]

And it's currently in a 'which Christmas' situation. You'll notice I put the discussion of that review on top

Indeed, but the way the railway works, we may still have a sensible decision on third rail before GBR comes about

 

[Falcon1200]

I don't think Didcot-Oxford actually fully 'electrifies' / replaces any diesel services though.

As @Bald Rick says the half-hourly Didcot/Oxford locals would be fully replaced by EMUs (the occasional Banbury stoppers would simply run between there and Oxford only), plus the half-hourly GWR fasts would run on electric to/from Oxford and change over there. So a total of 8 trains per hour each running 10 miles less on diesel, definitely worth doing!

 

[zwk500]

Have there been any announcements of funding or other firm commitments to do Oxford one the P5 works are done?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

GWR extension to Bristol

via both Filton Bank into Temple Meads and via Bath

 

[WAO]

Without CPRing a dead cat, if 750V dc third rail were really dangerous there would be a program for its removal. There isn't.

There are no "grandfather rights" over serious H&S hazards.

Returning to the topic, if Oxford's Botley bridge and the extra platform are too hard for NR, I suggest a good win would be the next stretch from Christian Malford to Bathampton ATS at least. This would include the prepared Box tunnels and the long, steep gradient, surely a candidate for electric traction and regeneration.

Perhaps our arts graduate leaders don't learn about hills.

WAO

 

[JamesT]

Without CPRing a dead cat, if 750V dc third rail were really dangerous there would be a program for its removal. There isn't.

There are no "grandfather rights" over serious H&S hazards.

Of course there are. Take seatbelts for one, they've been compulsory fitted equipment for decades but there has been no legislation to force existing vehicles to have them retrofitted.

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps our arts graduate leaders don't learn about hills.

Interestingly, Sunak, Raab and Hunt all have BAs but Sunak has an MBA and Raab a Masters of Law, showing have adaptable Arts Graduates are! Mark Harper read PPE so is a BSc.

 

[cle]

You're the one who was "screaming that people are wrong on the internet" when you responded to @Sealink .

Anyhow, isn't the issue of new third rail currently under review, so the people that know might still come to their senses ?

Agree with this entirely. If the safety issue was that big a deal, the only electrification project we would ever know would be one to replace existing third rail.

Fair point on roads too. There is a basic element of 'stay away from them' here - much like AC railways.

 

[Merioneth]

Interestingly, Sunak, Raab and Hunt all have BAs but Sunak has an MBA and Raab a Masters of Law, showing have adaptable Arts Graduates are! Mark Harper read PPE so is a BSc.

Nobody graduates from Oxford with a BSc. Mark Harper had a BA which was converted into an MA. He studied PPE, as you say - which counts as social sciences, but this does not make him a scientist.

(I am a former Fellow of a different Oxford college.)

 

[zwk500]

Nobody graduates from Oxford with a BSc. Mark Harper had a BA which was converted into an MA. He studied PPE, as you say - which counts as social sciences, but this does not make him a scientist.

(I am a former Fellow of a different Oxford college.)

I appreciate that you took the time to join just to correct me on that! I didn't realise you could get BAs in PPE. The Social Sciences are always a bit of an 'in between' one, I know some universities give a choice of BA or BSc for the same subject at times.

Welcome!

 

[Bald Rick]

Third rail in the South East - for example to Uckfield and the Ashford - Hastings line. Seems a no-brainer.

Usual comment’s apply when anyone says “no brainier”

We can reference all of these discussions, however as I've mentioned previously, the situation is still currently under review.

It’s been under review for a loooong time. What does that tell you?

 

[yorksrob]

Usual comment’s apply when anyone says “no brainier”



It’s been under review for a loooong time. What does that tell you?

It tells me that the review process is very inefficient and due for a shake-up !

 

[Peter Sarf]

It tells me that the review process is very inefficient and due for a shake-up !

They kind of simplified the review process for insulation on buildings (cladding). Result was saving money as expected. Oh and a fire......