Are there any penalty fare areas where it is possible...

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route:oxford

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...to purchase an e-ticket on a mobile device quicker than a member of revenue protection staff can issue a penalty fare?
 
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MikeWh

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...to purchase an e-ticket on a mobile device quicker than a member of revenue protection staff can issue a penalty fare?
No idea, but I don't think you can buy mobile tickets for immediate use, probably to stop just this scenario.
 

Monty

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...to purchase an e-ticket on a mobile device quicker than a member of revenue protection staff can issue a penalty fare?
You would still be liable to a PFN, as you did not produce a vaild ticket on demand. I see where you are coming from though. ;)

However I given how fiddley I find buying things on my mobile phone, I'd have to say the RPI would beat you to it everytime. :P
 

bignosemac

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Won't get you very far I suspect.

You'd still be in breach of Byelaw 18 (1)

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Whilst you can buy tickets through a mobile device (which means you don't actually have the ticket to show and would get a Penalty Fare even if you bought the ticket before the guard got to you), I believe only Virgin Trains, Cross Country and Chiltern Railways have m-tickets (like oyster but with a mobile phone or similar) and of those I think only Chiltern have Penalty Fares, so it is a rather specific question and one which I am sure they have thought of.
 

clagmonster

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You would still be liable to a PFN, as you did not produce a vaild ticket on demand. I see where you are coming from though. ;)
A quick dodger may manage to see the TTI coming and purchase said ticket with his telephone as soon as he enters the carriage - thus having it ready in time to be able to present it on demand. A case similar to this is PTE scratchcard, more than once I have seen coming on for half a carriage validating their tickets when the guard enters the carriage, presumably having hoped the guard would not appear.
 

GadgetMan

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There are mainly TWO types of tickets you can buy on your phone:

1) Advance ticket; these must be purchased at least a day before travel and can be presented in the form of Print at Home, Conventional TOD, have them posted to you or finally on some TOCs m-tickets.

The above would be of absolutely no use to a traveller - (unless it took the RPI the duration of the night to make their way thru the train :lol:)

2) Walk up fares; These can be purchased on your phone using an App or Browser at any point, however as mentioned above, you will not be able to produce said tickets for inspection as they would need to be collected from a ticket office/TVM. Walk up fares are not available in the form of m-tickets (m-tickets are for specific trains on a specified day with no flexibility).

Just thought I should add; e-tickets cannot be presented on a phone or other device. They must be printed prior to boarding a train and be presented as a printout to the inspector. e-tickets are similar to m-tickets in the sense that they are only available in conjunction with Advance tickets bought at least a day before travel with no flexibility.
 

michael769

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...to purchase an e-ticket on a mobile device quicker than a member of revenue protection staff can issue a penalty fare?
I recognize that this is hypothetical and you are in no means suggesting that you would pull such a stunt, having said that....

I think that anyone caught trying do do such a thing would find themselves facing a RoR S. 5 prosecution, as I can think of only 1 reason for such an act....
 

island

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Just thought I should add; e-tickets cannot be presented on a phone or other device. They must be printed prior to boarding a train and be presented as a printout to the inspector. e-tickets are similar to m-tickets in the sense that they are only available in conjunction with Advance tickets bought at least a day before travel with no flexibility.
I don't believe that's correct.
 

SS4

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Wouldn't the time of purchase be noted and basically make things worse for the passenger because it would surely be making it obvious (s)he was trying to get out of paying the correct fare
 
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Its time they had a ticket validation machine (Like the French composter) on the stations, this would stop all these dodges.
Penalty fares system should be scrapped, and replaced with a £5 mandatory surcharge on all tickets bought on trains etc, where ticket office or TVMs are available. The conductor guard etc should receive a high percentage of the £5 as commission!!!
Several penalty fare TOCs are already prosecuting people instead of a penalty fares anyway.
 

oversteer

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I just tried using Chiltern's iPhone app and it seems to let you buy a m-ticket for immediate use, and displayed at gates or for inspection on your handset.

It was an OPS ticket (Super off-peak single, Chiltern Only) so it is not restricted to a specific train.

I don't know if the m-tickets are valid if you do not scan them through a gate, however. Probably best nobody confirms that ;)
 

GadgetMan

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Chiltern electronic tickets can be presented on a phone, unless you are distinguishing e-tickets from mobile tickets, in which case ignore my message.
Yep,
e-ticket = print at home
M-ticket = on phone etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I just tried using Chiltern's iPhone app and it seems to let you buy a m-ticket for immediate use, and displayed at gates or for inspection on your handset.

It was an OPS ticket (Super off-peak single, Chiltern Only) so it is not restricted to a specific train.

I don't know if the m-tickets are valid if you do not scan them through a gate, however. Probably best nobody confirms that ;)
You're right, just checked and it is indeed possible.:oops:
 

mallard

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Its time they had a ticket validation machine (Like the French composter) on the stations, this would stop all these dodges.
Wouldn't that also take a whole bunch of flexibility out of the system too? Travelling short, break of journey, etc..
 
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Wouldn't that also take a whole bunch of flexibility out of the system too? Travelling short, break of journey, etc..
You would only validate your ticket once, before your first train.
With 'phone' tickets etc etc maybe technology could put that out of date.
__________
Ah I see sir you have bought your ticket after the train departed, if fact bought just as I entered this coach.
According to GPS you phone has traveled further than you?
 

lyndhurst25

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Its time they had a ticket validation machine (Like the French composter) on the stations, this would stop all these dodges.
Penalty fares system should be scrapped, and replaced with a £5 mandatory surcharge on all tickets bought on trains etc, where ticket office or TVMs are available. The conductor guard etc should receive a high percentage of the £5 as commission!!!
Several penalty fare TOCs are already prosecuting people instead of a penalty fares anyway.
I've been thinking of something similar. Generally, people never like to feel that they are being "fined". They will also happily turn up early and queue up if there's a discount to be had.

How about this? - Get rid of Penalty Fares. Increase all train fares by 50%. You get a 33% discount if you buy a ticket before boarding (or when boarding at a station where no ticket facilities are available).
 
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Flamingo

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From a practical point of view, this is already in place as an anytime ticket is all that should be for sale on-board. The whole thing falls down when the passenger says "I'm not paying that", as there is very little a guard (as opposed to an RPI) can then do.

Believe me when I say that if the train is held for more than it's dwell time at any station over a ticketiting issue (or any other incident that started as a ticketing issue) the guard involved will be having an interview without coffee the next day, regardless of what the passenger did.
 

b0b

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the purchasing onboard trick is easily defeated by making sure the e-ticket has a purchase timestamp?
 

lyndhurst25

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I've waited until I'm actually sat on the train to validate self-dated rovers before and I'd be tempted to do the same with a mobile phone m-ticket purchase in the same circumstances. The reason was that if that train didn't turn up on time then, because of missed connections, then the whole day trip I was intending to make would have been impossible. I don't see a problem with doing that.
 

mallard

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the purchasing onboard trick is easily defeated by making sure the e-ticket has a purchase timestamp?
But would that make any difference? Is there an actual byelaw that covers that situation? Producing a ticket on demand, yes, but actually bought more than a few seconds before the demand?
 

route:oxford

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I recognize that this is hypothetical and you are in no means suggesting that you would pull such a stunt, having said that....

I think that anyone caught trying do do such a thing would find themselves facing a RoR S. 5 prosecution, as I can think of only 1 reason for such an act....
So boarding a train with the intention, means and ability to pay for a ticket using a portal that is capable of selling a ticket for immediate use by the train operator could result in a prosecution?

I suspect a magistrate would find it difficult to rule in favour of the rail operator in a prosecution - particularly if the company had chosen to sell the individual a ticket through the e-portal whilst the revenue protection staff were in course of discussing the merits of the situation with the individual.

Unless of course revenue protection staff are permitted to confiscate and disable digital devices.
 

michael769

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So boarding a train with the intention, means and ability to pay for a ticket using a portal that is capable of selling a ticket for immediate use by the train operator could result in a prosecution?
Boarding a train with the intent to only purchase a ticket if tickets are checked, and not otherwise is in my opinion an offence under S.5 of the Regulation of Railways Act (Intent to avoid paying a fare). It would be down to the magistrate and what evidence was presented to determine if there was sufficient evidence to meet the legal standard for prosecution. That would, of course depend on the individual circumstances and what the offender said to the RPI.

I cannot see any legitimate reason why someone would not purchase their ticket before boarding, or, if they were concerned about a delay or cancellation rendering their journey pointless, immediately after getting on.
 

oversteer

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I don't think m-tickets were thought of when the relevant railway offences were written into statute !
I am surprised they don't say "a m ticket is only valid if scanned before your journey" which would get around it neatly.
Of course at somewhere like Marylebone you are unlikely to get through the barrier without a ticket (unless you are really doing your best to scam the system)
 
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