Are there any train drivers earning £100k or more?

[LBMPSB]

As a matter of interest, are Train Drivers restricted on the amount of work they can do? Signallers are restricted to a rolling seven day cycle of maximum 60 hours in seven days. Signallers also have to have minimum hours off between shifts and maximum length of 12 hours per shift.

 

[godfreycomplex]

As a matter of interest, are Train Drivers restricted on the amount of work they can do? Signallers are restricted to a rolling seven day cycle of maximum 60 hours in seven days. Signallers also have to have minimum hours off between shifts and maximum length of 12 hours per shift.

Hidden is still the same so max 12 hour shift and minimum 12 hours between and rolling 60 hours between. Of course these are maxima and the terms and conditions for most companies reduce, for instance, the maximum booked shift length considerably down from 12 hours (somewhere between 9 and 10 hours is usual for TOCs), with anything above as agreed overtime, but Hidden still remains as a legal limit

 

[wysall]

Are drivers working class? Honest question! It doesn't strike me as a particularly working class profession anymore but I'm certainly interested in others thoughts.

By definition they are: class comes down to economic position. Not identity, not income.

I did say "Working class roles are normally defined as unskilled or semi-skilled"

Just checked C2 means Skilled manual. You seem to have added a working class label to a government category.

Using their definitions "Semi-skilled and unskilled" means "lowest grade occupations". What roles would be seen as lower down a hierachery than a machine operator? A machinist is the textbook definition of a semi-skilled role. They are only skilled as long as the machine they are trained on exists.

Perhaps you should look up some definitions in a dictionary, as you've confused at least three in writing your reply!

The social grades (of which C2 is one) are meaningless nowadays—they were created in the time of coal and steel, for an entirely different economy to what we have now. But it’s not him who’s added a label: C2 has long been understood (incorrectly) as ‘skilled working class’.

 

[RailExplorer]

In 2020/2021/2022 I earned very well - I won't give the exact figure though. I was one of only a tiny tiny handful of instructors at my TOC that was willing to continue in cab training during covid. It resulted in me working 12-13 days on, 1-2 days off for a 24+ month period, usually on max length days. Oddly I wasn't even sick once in this period. I gave up a lot of family time for this though but there wasn't much else going on so it was ok. Give or take a few, it was about 120 rest days in each calendar year. Last year I worked 3 rest days as I no longer have any real interest in rest day work and the sacrifices that are required - and much prefer the days off.

 

[Pub]

Dont forget for income over £50.271 the tax rate is 40% and over £125,140 it is 45%. A certain Mr Hunt (Chancellor) must love all the Tax the train drivers are paying. Therefore just because someone earns a high figure they dont get it in their pay packet (shows im old I can remember when people were weekly paid in cash not by bank transfer)

 

[mrbouffant]

Don't forget also the personal allowance grab between 100K and ~125K, meaning someone pays a marginal rate of 60% tax between those two numbers. Plus NI...

 

[whoosh]

Dont forget for income over £50.271 the tax rate is 40% and over £125,140 it is 45%. A certain Mr Hunt (Chancellor) must love all the Tax the train drivers are paying. Therefore just because someone earns a high figure they dont get it in their pay packet (shows im old I can remember when people were weekly paid in cash not by bank transfer)

Don't forget the 'higher rate child benefit repayment tax' between 50k and 60k (effectively an additional tax on that £10,000 of 20.748% for someone with two kids) and that the personal allowance disappears between 100k and 125k effectively making that £25,000 become taxed at 60%.

Ceilings that are very hard to break through and keep the working class and middle class in their place respectively!

 

[izvor]

Can't wait to read this thread in the Daily Mail

Daily Mail accounts show that one (unnamed) director earned £6.2m in the last financial year. This from a paper frequently lambasting "fat cat" salaries (Source: Private Eye). Pot, kettle…

 

[driverd]

To take the question at face value - yes this does happen.

However (and there are some huge caveats)...

As others have pointed out, this is entirely dependent on overtime and generally requires working 12-13 days out of 14, moving from earlies to nights and back again repeatedly over that period, and leaving very little time to see family or having anything of a life.

To which extent, it rather begs the question of what the point is - especially if there's little opportunity to enjoy your income (of course, some people have exceptional circumstances such as supporting relatives etc - in my experience, where colleagues are earning such a salary it tends to be more out of necessity than by choice - eg: going through a messy divorce/supporting ill family members etc).

The next caveat here is that such an income is entirely dependent on a rest day working agreement being in place. To that end, you could go from earning a pro-rata £100k+ salary one month, to £55k the next. Safe to say, that hurts both mood and pockets - and with industrial relations as they are, its happened at a fair few places.

Finally, its worth pointing out that whilst the salary can be very high, train drivers occupy a relatively unique position, in so far as a reasonably small number of errors could cost them their jobs. Unlike many similar roles, you're alone in the cab and there's very little to act as a check or balance on decision making - where in other roles there may be additional people to challenge decisions etc.

 

[Moonshot]

The question is " are there any train drivers earning £100k or more ". The answer is yes.....but they have to work some quite significant amounts of overtime to get that figure. Most don't bother as they want a decent work/home life balance, which isn't particularly easy when you work the sort of shifts drivers do

 

[Gemz91]

I did four days rest day work last year and hated every single one. This year I’ve done no ready day work and so don’t plan to do any. I still have a mortgage and children to support.

I know one driver who would use his application days to book time off so he could maximise the amount of rest day work he could do. He’d work the maximum amount of days, then have a days leave. Last thing I knew he was on divorce number three and many of his kids didn’t talk to him.

 

[Simon11]

Dont forget for income over £50.271 the tax rate is 40% and over £125,140 it is 45%. A certain Mr Hunt (Chancellor) must love all the Tax the train drivers are paying. Therefore just because someone earns a high figure they dont get it in their pay packet (shows im old I can remember when people were weekly paid in cash not by bank transfer)

But payments made into the pensions by the employee are not taxed.

Any smart driver or anyone in general should put in as much into pensions when faced with the +40% tax band and this reduce their tax payments, plus have opportunities to retire earlier.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

These discussions on either how much sacrifice a job requires vs how much they get paid are always based on false facts.
Do driver's get a good deal vs Teachers vs nurses vs the prime minister cannot be answered, it depends on one's circumstance. Drivers irregular sifts but once you clock out you're free to enjoy yourself vs working in a senior IT position where the job doesn't stop at the end of the working day as you maybe called anytime to fix an issue.
Rewards are always based on availability of the workers with that particular skillset not really what job is worth to society. I often think on a commute down to what I know is going to be difficult day, wouldn't it be nice to be a train driver / HGV driver / bus driver but reality each job has pluses and minuses.

 

[Class 170101]

Footballers earn millions but with a few exceptions (the Beckhams) they certainly aren't middle class (never mind upper class which means 'old money')

Only some footballers as was said above earn this money, many don't come from money in the first place (eg Marcus Rashford) so certainly wouldn't be considered middle class when they started playing.

Not all train drivers earn 100K+ a year either.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Dont forget for income over £50.271 the tax rate is 40% and over £125,140 it is 45%. A certain Mr Hunt (Chancellor) must love all the Tax the train drivers are paying. Therefore just because someone earns a high figure they dont get it in their pay packet (shows im old I can remember when people were weekly paid in cash not by bank transfer)

Don't forget also the personal allowance grab between 100K and ~125K, meaning someone pays a marginal rate of 60% tax between those two numbers. Plus NI...

Don't forget the 'higher rate child benefit repayment tax' between 50k and 60k (effectively an additional tax on that £10,000 of 20.748% for someone with two kids) and that the personal allowance disappears between 100k and 125k effectively making that £25,000 become taxed at 60%.

Ceilings that are very hard to break through and keep the working class and middle class in their place respectively!

The bizarre tax structure caused by successive chancellors pretending to cut the headline rate of tax whilst clawing the money back by all sorts of allowance limits is becoming a real issue for actual working people. Train Drivers, senior health workers, police, firefighters, senior teachers etc are all being caught by these perverse incentives. Of course, the more you earn the more tax you expect to pay but there are marginal rates that mean that 60% or more of each pound is in some cases being taken in taxes.

Given the heart of all the public sector pay disputes hangs on the question of how they are funded, I do wonder if some effort might be made by a current or future Government in sorting this out because ultimately it is the take home money that matters, and it would help close the gap between what is being asked for and what is on offer

 

[Krokodil]

What roles would be seen as lower down a hierachery than a machine operator?

Have you ever used a lathe? It's definitely skilled work. Labourers and cleaners will be either unskilled or semi-skilled. Drivers certainly aren't middle class, unlike management and clerical grades (even if the latter often aren't paid so well).

I think one GP at my local surgery used to play in a rugby union team at weekends when he was younger.

Rugby Union has plenty of public schoolboys and others from middle class backgrounds. This was the underlying reason for the League/Union schism because the teams in the North wanted to professionalise because their players couldn't afford to take time off.

 

[Leeds Driver]

I don’t know of anyone who’s earned over 100k at my TOC. You’d have to work every hour going which isn’t possible as even when there is a rest day agreement, even if you put in for every single one, you won’t get given enough to get to 100k.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I try and work every rest day going and I’ve never got near £100K. Must try harder.

 

[43066]

Drivers certainly aren't middle class, unlike management and clerical grades (even if the latter often aren't paid so well).

Personally based on my family background, education level etc., I’d tick mostly “middle class” boxes. Isn’t it more down to the person than the job they do? Seems odd to imagine that you go from middle to working (or vice versa) by changing job. It’s interesting that people seem so keen on identifying as either working class or middle class. Does it really matter, in any case?

I don’t know of anyone who’s earned over 100k at my TOC. You’d have to work every hour going which isn’t possible as even when there is a rest day agreement, even if you put in for every single one, you won’t get given enough to get to 100k.

I try and work every rest day going and I’ve never got near £100K. Must try harder.

It all depends on your hourly rate as determined by basic salary, and any enhancements for overtime.

If you earned (say) £65k basic, and had a time * 1.5 rest day agreement, you’d earn approx. £500 for a 10 hour day. You’d need to earn an extra £35k, so that translates to 1.3 rest days per week, which is doable on an average basis.

Obviously it means some long runs of days on, careful use of annual leave, and a *lot* of flexibility in terms of willingness to work the shifts available etc. Easier at TOCs with basics into the £70s as some are now, and easier still at the one where you have to be able to speak French .

 

[Twotwo]

I don’t know of anyone who’s earned over 100k at my TOC. You’d have to work every hour going which isn’t possible as even when there is a rest day agreement, even if you put in for every single one, you won’t get given enough to get to 100k.

Quite a few at my toc have easily done it. I'm sure at other tocs, with a higher pay, would be much easier. Couple of rest days a month.

 

[43066]

Quite a few at my toc have easily done it. I'm sure at other tocs, with a higher pay, would be much easier. Couple of rest days a month.

At your TOC, which I believe pretty much slots into my figures above, you’d need over five days per month - so no long weekend - and then some. You’d be over an average five day week when you consider annual leave weeks. Doable for sure if you’re keen, and ad hoc leave can help, but I wouldn’t say easily so. That’s proper graft.

It’s possible to go above £100k by making yourself “permanently available” so that you’ll work any rest day by default, subject to fatigue index and Hidden (and rosters will swap your days and shifts around, and give you paid leave every thirteen days, or whenever necessary to prevent fatigue) - so essentially you’ll have no life whatsoever. I know a couple of drivers who do it, and consistently get to £110k or more, but that’s the absolute max and the 60% marginal tax rate mentioned upthread kicks in above 100, so is it really worth it?

 

[northwichcat]

This was the underlying reason for the League/Union schism because the teams in the North wanted to professionalise because their players couldn't afford to take time off.

You mean the teams within the old Lancashire and Yorkshire leagues. Not quite as simple as North/South. Sale, Greater Manchester remained a Rugby Union town as it wasn't in Lancashire at the time. Warrington became a Rugby League town as it used to be in Lancashire. Sale's further north than Warrington. And let's not forget there's a north of England above Lancashire and Yorkshire too!

Have you ever used a lathe? It's definitely skilled work.

You keep arguing the same point, so I'll keep making similar responses. If automation renders a lathe to no longer have an operator, what existing skills do the machine operators have that are transferrable to other areas like computer aided manufacturing? Skilled means you need numerous skills that aren't specific to one machine, or one role. If the skills die with the role it's a semi-skilled role, as if the role dies the employees need some form of training to be able to find a similiar level role.

In my case I used to work in a digital team at a marketing company. I now working in a marketing team. I didn't need any training to transfer. I applied for a different role and still meet the requirements, so I wouldn't be classed as semi-skilled.

 

[driverd]

You keep arguing the same point, so I'll keep making similar responses. If automation renders a lathe to no longer have an operator, what existing skills do the machine operators have that are transferrable to other areas like computer aided manufacturing? Skilled means you need numerous skills that aren't specific to one machine, or one role. If the skills die with the role it's a semi-skilled role, as if the role dies the employees need some form of training to be able to find a similiar level role.

By this definition, though, there's so many roles that would be classed as semi-skilled; from lathe operator to pilot to surgeon. They're all skilled (to a lesser or greater extent) in a very niche field. If automation rendered any of these roles obsolete, they couldn't transfer those skills elsewhere (perhaps a surgeon could re-train or refresh in more general medicine - anyone in the medical field who could advise?).

I'm not sure I've ever seen a surgeon or pilot classed as semi-skilled.

In my case I used to work in a digital team at a marketing company. I now working in a marketing team. I didn't need any training to transfer. I applied for a different role and still meet the requirements, so I wouldn't be classed as semi-skilled.

So you'd be classed as unskilled? No specific training required for any of these roles.

I'm not trying to be provocative here, by the way, I'm just probing a little to understand what you'd class as a skilled role?

 

[12LDA28C]

I did four days rest day work last year and hated every single one.

How does working a Rest Day differ from working a normal rostered day at work, or do you hate those days too?

 

[Silverlinky]

At my TOC we had a few drivers earning 100k+ five or six years ago, it was only a few though. As above, working a lot of overtime, Sundays outside of the week earning a premium, and being so flexible that they would come off one job to cover another "for 12"
Earning consistent money like that allowed increased contributions to BRASS and therefore a better pension pot when retirement comes along, or the option to go earlier because the Brass pot is so big so as to negate the early retirement penalty.

 

[Krokodil]

In my case I used to work in a digital team at a marketing company. I now working in a marketing team

Sounds like a clerical role to me. Drivers are still skilled manual workers, even if autocouplers etc. have removed most of the physical element from the job. Even EMU drivers still get their hands dirty from time to time.

 

[northwichcat]

By this definition, though, there's so many roles that would be classed as semi-skilled; from lathe operator to pilot to surgeon. They're all skilled (to a lesser or greater extent) in a very niche field. If automation rendered any of these roles obsolete, they couldn't transfer those skills elsewhere (perhaps a surgeon could re-train or refresh in more general medicine - anyone in the medical field who could advise?).

I'm not sure I've ever seen a surgeon or pilot classed as semi-skilled.

I don't know why the concept of semi-skilled is so difficult for people to understand. It's something I remember learning at school, even though it must have been over 25 years ago now.

What's the chance of either humans no longer needing brains, or machines being 100% responsible for brain surgery within the working life of a brain surgeon?

And in the unlikely event of that happening, would a brain surgeon need to look to a level 2 apprenticeship level (or equivalent) to get themselves a new role?

I'm pretty sure someone qualified as a brain surgeon has numerous skills that can be used in other medical roles.

So you'd be classed as unskilled? No specific training required for any of these roles.

For the first role I needed to be able to use Adobe software and be able to write HTML code. I'd say neither are unskilled. With HTML, in particular, there's an every increasing number of roles where some knowledge is beneficial. Unless the world wide web is shut down it's going to be needed. There will be updates to HTML, but then even a brain surgeon needs to keep up-to-date with advances in science and technology. No point in them carrying out a procedure with a 50% success rate, if there's now one with a 80% success rate.

I'm not trying to be provocative here, by the way, I'm just probing a little to understand what you'd class as a skilled role?

I wasn't debating skilled roles. I was pointing out that some roles that may not exist much longer are semi-skilled, if it means people made redundant from those roles can't easily transfer into other roles. Think more like what happened with coal mining.

 

[Gemz91]

How does working a Rest Day differ from working a normal rostered day at work, or do you hate those days too?

I hate those days too

 

[northwichcat]

Sounds like a clerical role to me.

I'd say there's very few people in the traditional 'clerical' office roles now. While the use of email over post has reduced labour, the remaining roles need people with more skills than the traditional ones. Gone are the days when someone can be employed to stick things in envelopes. Even job adverts for entry level admin roles can now say things like a basic knowledge of HTML is beneficial, as pretty much every business has a website and wants professional looking digital communications.

 

[Krokodil]

What's the chance of either humans no longer needing brains

I've been working with the public for many years. I long since came to the conclusion that many dispensed with theirs a long time ago.

I wasn't debating skilled roles. I was pointing out that some roles that may not exist much longer are semi-skilled, if it means people made redundant from those roles can't easily transfer into other roles. Think more like what happened with coal mining.

It's easier to transfer between semi-skilled roles than it is between skilled roles, given that training for the latter tends to be quite specialised.

I'd say there's very few people in the traditional 'clerical' office roles now. While the use of email over post has reduced labour, the remaining roles need people with more skills than the traditional ones. Gone are the days when someone can be employed to stick things in envelopes. Even job adverts for entry level admin roles can now say things like a basic knowledge of HTML is beneficial, as pretty much every business has a website and wants professional looking digital communications.

I'm using "clerical" as an all encompassing term for "white collar". Basically anything that doesn't require one's hands to get dirty.