Are there too many professional football clubs?

[Tetchytyke]

Bradford (Park Avenue) went bust in 1974, owing a paltry £57,000, and paid off 75% of our debts. But we still had to start in the West Riding County Amateur League Division 3!

Bradford's last match as the original club had a crowd well under 1000. They were voted out because they kept finishing bottom.

Given it took 13 years to get the proper Phoenix club formed, I'm not sure where else you could start?

Amazing how many times your lot have gone bust and still managed to keep your place in the Football

We went bust three times. Completely bust in 1983, with a new club formed there and then, back in the days when that happened- Middlesbrough did it too. The two later ones were both pre-pack administrations.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Some very interesting rumours flying around about Wigan, which I think show more that the EFL's fit and proper person test is a joke than anything else.

Wigan administration a 'major scandal'

Local MP Lisa Nandy calls for a full inquiry into the circumstances surrounding Wigan being placed in administration

www.bbc.co.uk

EFL chairman Rick Parry has been secretly recorded by a Wigan fan discussing rumours related to the club's administration.

In the recording, Parry discusses an alleged bet on the club's relegation from the Championship.

On Wednesday, Wigan became the first English professional club to enter administration since the coronavirus pandemic began.

The club's administration is currently being investigated.

The EFL said it was "aware" of the video, adding Parry was "unaware he was being filmed".

"It was part of a much wider and impromptu discussion he was having with a Wigan supporter he does not know but who lives in the same area," said an EFL spokesperson.

"The private conversation focused around the events of the last 24-48 hours, how the EFL can assist and what happens next. The various rumours and reports that have been circulating throughout today were also discussed.

"While the chairman was unaware he was being filmed, he was happy to engage in the debate and appreciates this is a concerning and challenging time for all those associated with the club."

 

[telstarbox]

I guess a related question is, how far down the pyramid are there full-time players? Some of the richer National League sides like Fylde and Salford City (before their promotion?)

 

[SteveM70]

I guess a related question is, how far down the pyramid are there full-time players? Some of the richer National League sides like Fylde and Salford City (before their promotion?)

About 75% of the national league teams are full time.
Fylde are bankrolled by a sugar daddy and are paying daft wages, helped by a shirt sponsorship deal with another of the owner’s companies worth £450,000

Salford’s wage bill when they were in the national league was frankly ridiculous - Adam Rooney over four grand a week basic.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Bradford's last match as the original club had a crowd well under 1000. They were voted out because they kept finishing bottom.

Given it took 13 years to get the proper Phoenix club formed, I'm not sure where else you could start?



We went bust three times. Completely bust in 1983, with a new club formed there and then, back in the days when that happened- Middlesbrough did it too. The two later ones were both pre-pack administrations.

We kept finishing bottom because we tried to lived within our means and didn't spend money we didn't have. As a consequence, results inevitably suffered. And honourably we paid 75% of our debts when we went under.

The crowd for our last match was below 1000 mainly because, by that time, we were ground sharing with you in Manningham and at least half of our fans refused to go there. I'm just reading John Dewhirst's excellent books on the history of our two clubs and it seems the refusal of your supporters to come to Park Avenue scuppered amalgamation talks in 1906 and 1907.

You're right - we were very slow in forming a proper phoenix club. In those days of re-election, it is very unlikely we would been voted back into D4 with another club in the city, even if fought our way back to the NPL and won it. Ironically if there had been automatic promotion & relegation to D4 in the 1960's, you would have gone out in 1963, four years before us.

Good luck next season. We're full of angst and guilt about the way we avoided relegation this time around. I'm not too confident about 20/21. A lot will depend on how competitive other teams are in the lower half of NLN.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Sadly, selling star players such as Kevin Hector in 1966, followed by rock bottom finishes and then relegation from the Football League in 1970, the untimely death of the owner/chairman/main backer (same year), crowds dwindling, followed by the selling of the home ground in c. 1973 and moving in with City was only likely to end one way.

One thing I don't quite understand was why the Sunday League team (continuing the old Club name) having to join the football hierarchy in 1974 at a relatively lowly entry level was unfair, surely that's how things were then?

 

[Alan Glaum]

About 75% of the national league teams are full time.
Fylde are bankrolled by a sugar daddy and are paying daft wages, helped by a shirt sponsorship deal with another of the owner’s companies worth £450,000

Salford’s wage bill when they were in the national league was frankly ridiculous - Adam Rooney over four grand a week basic.

And at least York City have full-time pros in National League North (level 6). I only heard as they were arguing play-offs at that level are still professional sport

see https://www.yorkcityfootballclub.co.uk/news/maguire-thriving-full-time-football

 

[Tetchytyke]

Good luck next season. We're full of angst and guilt about the way we avoided relegation this time around. I'm not too confident about 20/21.

Likewise, I always look out for your results. It's sad to go past Park Avenue and see what happened to the old ground. It's a shame Bradford seems to struggle to support one decent league side, let alone two. It should be able to. It's a big enough place.

I was just glad last season ended, a car wreck from start to finish.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Sadly, selling star players such as Kevin Hector in 1966, followed by rock bottom finishes and then relegation from the Football League in 1970, the untimely death of the owner/chairman/main backer (same year), crowds dwindling, followed by the selling of the home ground in c. 1973 and moving in with City was only likely to end one way.

One thing I don't quite understand was why the Sunday League team (continuing the old Club name) having to join the football hierarchy in 1974 at a relatively lowly entry level was unfair, surely that's how things were then?

The Sunday League team wasn't really a phoenix club. It was simply the Supporters Club team, formed about 1971, which decided to keep on playing, despite having no team to support. They retained their place in the Bradford Sunday League but changed their name to Bradford Park Avenue (1975). Most of the people involved were very young at the time and lacked the wealth or business acumen to run a semi-professional football club. The Sunday League team folded a couple of years after the phoenix club proper restarted in 1988, and are now part of the club's ageing fan base.

To try and remedy this, the club is now installing a plastic pitch and will run a large number of academy and junior teams next season.

For the Saturday team to have to start in West Riding County Amateur League Division 3 seems a bit unfair, but I think the intention was to use the 1988/89 season to put foundations in place at Manningham Mills (now the home of Campion FC). Bradford were then to elected Central Midlands League in 1989 and allowed to start at the top in the Supreme Division (sic), which was a bit more in keeping with the club's history. But we had to move to the old RL ground at Bramley to meet ground grading requirements. The last game of 88/89 was a 3-1 win against Field reserves. The first game of 89/90 was a 3-1 defeat against a Leeds United XI, quite a contrast. Kevin Hector made a guest appearance in that game.

 

[si404]

I would not describe it all as "cheating" - more often it is a case of incompetence or misjudgement

When big clubs with sugar daddies who can absorb the losses do it, it's classed as cheating: Chelsea have a transfer ban, Man City have been handed a 2 year ban from European competition (that they are awaiting the results of their appeal).

Some very interesting rumours flying around about Wigan, which I think show more that the EFL's fit and proper person test is a joke than anything else.

In this case, the aim was to cheat, not by spending outside the club's means, but by deliberately incurring a penalty so as to win a massive bet on the club being relegated...

 

[Old Yard Dog]

For many years, I have been critical of the number of players at higher level clubs who have to spend their weekends sitting on the substitutes bench. The new Project Restart rules have made the situation even worse and given an unfair advantage to bigger clubs with bigger squads.

It is often young up-and-coming English players who are wasting their weekends in this way. It would be far better for the national side and for the players themselves if they were playing for clubs lower in the pecking order. Restricting the PL and EFL to five substitutes on the bench would be a good start. And, in non-league football, three or four should be enough.

 

[scotrail158713]

For many years, I have been critical of the number of players at higher level clubs who have to spend their weekends sitting on the substitutes bench. The new Project Restart rules have made the situation even worse and given an unfair advantage to bigger clubs with bigger squads.

It is often young up-and-coming English players who are wasting their weekends in this way. It would be far better for the national side and for the players themselves if they were playing for clubs lower in the pecking order. Restricting the PL and EFL to five substitutes on the bench would be a good start. And, in non-league football, three or four should be enough.

Completely agree. I had to bite my tongue when watching Burnley v Sheffield Utd on Sunday and the commentator said “Sean Dyche’s squad is stretched and he can only name 7 subs today”.

 

[SteveM70]

Restricting the PL and EFL to five substitutes on the bench would be a good start. And, in non-league football, three or four should be enough

I tend to agree with this in respect of the premier league and possibly the championship, but lower down the football league and in the national league there are a lot of clubs who for cost reasons don’t run a reserve team, so being on the bench may be as good as it gets for some younger players, and even if they don’t get on the pitch much it can still be valuable experience being in that environment

 

[al78]

Trouble is of course football is very tribal and the idea merging football clubs would be like asking people to make peace with the other side during a war.

Or like asking Scotland, England and Wales to merge into one country.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Have the rumours from the Far East concerning Wigan Athletic been confirmed / stood up?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Restricting the PL and EFL to five substitutes on the bench would be a good start.

I agree stockpiling is a huge problem, but restricting numbers of subs on benches doesn't reduce stockpiling. Academies hoover up all the young talent. Academies cost a lot of money to run so you don't see many lower league Academies. Players from non-Academy clubs can transfer to an Academy for very small fees, meaning lower league clubs get their players poached much younger than before.

Back in the 90s we brought the (late and sadly missed) Dean Richards through and got a couple of years out of him before the big money move to Wolves. Fast forward 20 years and our promising youth players- Andre Wisdom, Oli McBurnie, Fabian Delph, Tom Cleverley- get flogged long before they've even got near the first team.

The PL needs "use them or lose them" rules on squad sizes, really. Fat chance of that happening. They'll have B teams first. Academy players in the PL earn more than they would in the lower leagues. Too many aren't up for the grafting.

 

[Bevan Price]

I agree stockpiling is a huge problem, but restricting numbers of subs on benches doesn't reduce stockpiling. Academies hoover up all the young talent. Academies cost a lot of money to run so you don't see many lower league Academies. Players from non-Academy clubs can transfer to an Academy for very small fees, meaning lower league clubs get their players poached much younger than before.

Back in the 90s we brought the (late and sadly missed) Dean Richards through and got a couple of years out of him before the big money move to Wolves. Fast forward 20 years and our promising youth players- Andre Wisdom, Oli McBurnie, Fabian Delph, Tom Cleverley- get flogged long before they've even got near the first team.

The PL needs "use them or lose them" rules on squad sizes, really. Fat chance of that happening. They'll have B teams first. Academy players in the PL earn more than they would in the lower leagues. Too many aren't up for the grafting.

Another thing with no chance of happening (too many vested interests, etc.) - but now that we have left EU, it is a pity that there is no rule that - at every team - at least 75-80% of the players much be qualified to play for the home country (England, etc.). And, like in Rugby League, each club has a cap on the total salary bill for players.

 

[whittlesfordok]

There are whole area of the country with high populations but no teams. And a lot of teams in certain areas would it not better transfer some teams about? I know this is what happen with Wimbledon (badly done). What do people think?

 

[Bevan Price]

There are whole area of the country with high populations but no teams. And a lot of teams in certain areas would it not better transfer some teams about? I know this is what happen with Wimbledon (badly done). What do people think?

To me, a bigger problem is that every time a small, or less affluent club finds some good players, those players are (legally) plundered by a few large clubs with multi-billionaire owners. It has all become rather boring - 95% of the time, it is likely to be one of the same five or six "big city" clubs that wins most of the trophies. Very occasionally (e.g. Leicester City), a less affluent club wins something, but I then wonder how long they can survive near the top tier.

Sadly, long gone are the days when clubs like Blackpool, Preston North End, Blackburn Rovers, etc., might have a sporting chance of coming "top of the pack" for a few years. (And as I have commented elsewhere, the indecent sums of money paid by Murdoch TV & other subscription channels for TV rights must take a lot of the blame.)

 

[SteveM70]

Sadly, long gone are the days when clubs like Blackpool, Preston North End, Blackburn Rovers, etc., might have a sporting chance of coming "top of the pack" for a few years.

Fair point, although of course Blackburn’s last title win was thanks to a sugar daddy

Apropos sugar daddies, whilst I’m sympathetic to Wigan’s current plight, the rank hypocrisy of their former owner Dave “did you know I broke my leg in the cup final? I don’t like to talk about it” Whelan was something to behold. Having bought promotion by hiring (relatively) overpaid players in the lower divisions, he reached the promised land of the premier league, found all the other owners had even deeper pockets and.......called for a salary cap.

 

[Statto]

I detest Dave Whelan, he was always wheeled out to comment on every damn issue when Wigan were in the Premier League, but what's going on at Wigan now sounds real dodgy took over a month ago & now in admin, EFL have questions to answer, there fit & proper person test is a joke.

As for the idea of merging clubs, fat chance, fans would rather form a new club, if there club merged with another club.

I'm ok with points deductions for going into admin, that was brought in early 00s, after Leicester went into admin when they got relegated, then ended up winning promotion the next season, refined when Leeds went into admin a few matches from the end of the season, & took the points hit that season, they were in the bottom 3 at the time.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There are whole area of the country with high populations but no teams.

Other than Milton Keynes- which had Northampton and Luton only a few miles away- I can't think of any high population areas without a league team.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Warrington, Gateshead, Dudley, Basingstoke, Wakefield and Maidstone spring to mind. Maybe also Croydon if Selhurst Park is considered to be located outwith the borough boundary.

 

[madannie77]

Of which Gateshead and Maidstone have had league teams in the past.

 

[xotGD]

Of which Gateshead and Maidstone have had league teams in the past.

And Gateshead is hardly in a football wilderness with Newcastle right across the river and Sunderland 10 miles away.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Depends how you define "football wilderness". (When was the last time that either Newcastle or their North East rivals Sunderland won a top flight competition?)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Warrington, Gateshead, Dudley, Basingstoke, Wakefield and Maidstone spring to mind.

You can literally see Newcastle United's ground from Gateshead town centre, Wakefield has Leeds and Huddersfield up the road and Doncaster, Rotherham and the two Sheffield clubs down the road. Dudley has West Brom.

Maidstone has Gillingham nearby, but I'll give you Kent as a whole, as Gillingham is the only league club.

The new towns postdate the formation of the league by quite a long way, so they're the ones without teams. I'll give you Basingstoke and Guildford, Reading is close but not that close

 

[Statto]

Would have thought Wakefield is more a Rugby League area though, can include Castleford too in that, Halifax too

 

[SteveM70]

Would have thought Wakefield is more a Rugby League area though, can include Castleford too in that, Halifax too

Halifax isn’t really a rugby town any more. Their crowds in the second tier of rugby league are about the same as Halifax Town’s in the fifth tier of football. And that’s allowing for the daft amount of free tickets the rugby give out

 

[madannie77]

Would have thought Wakefield is more a Rugby League area though, can include Castleford too in that, Halifax too

The same goes for Warrington and St Helens, and certainly in the past to Wigan, which went from 1931 to 1978 without a football league team after the notably unsuccessful Wigan Borough went bust.