Are there too many professional football clubs?

[telstarbox]

With the demise of Bury, and Bolton Wanderers and Wigan Athletic in trouble, do we have too many League clubs chasing too few paying fans - given that TV money is less of a factor outside the top flight?

 

[SteveM70]

No, we don’t. We just have far too much of the available money concentrated on the premier league. Although it’s worth noting that even league two clubs get a million quid a year in TV money.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Prune juice economics. Madness that some clubs pay out more than 100% of their total income in players' wages as they chase the dream and fail to cut their cloth accordingly. And don't get me going on all the money that is frittered away on agents' fees, even outwith the English Premier League!

 

[Bevan Price]

I think the idea of deducting points from clubs going into administration is very stupid. The "football industry" should be trying to help clubs encountering financial problems, not make their situation worse -- as it would be if deduction of points leads to relegation.

But I would agree with anyone who suggests that many of the "top level" players are grossly overpaid -and transfer fees are excessive. Murdoch & other satellite / internet TV companies must take a lot of the blame by paying £ xxx.xxx,xxx for TV rights.

 

[telstarbox]

No, we don’t. We just have far too much of the available money concentrated on the premier league. Although it’s worth noting that even league two clubs get a million quid a year in TV money.

Available money from fans or owners?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I think the idea of deducting points from clubs going into administration is very stupid.

How else would you disencourage a club from getting itself into major financial difficulties by overspending?

 

[eMeS]

I've never felt any urge to visit any professional football. I watched our local club when I was a kid, but after moving away at the age of 10, I never felt I was missing anything. Cricket was slightly different, and I listened avidly to the radio, until I spent a day at Old Trafford watching one of the Roses matches.

 

[yorkie]

No, we don’t...

Agreed.

 

[LMS 4F]

I have thought for a long while that the economics of football would not work or be allowed to in any other area. The reliance on TV revenue,hence the desire to restart even without any crowds in case they had to pay back some of the money, tied to often overseas buyers who are after that same TV money.
Lower down the pecking order they are clinging on in lots of cases with s business case that is hopeless all dreaming of promotion to the promised land.
The fans are treated with contempt by a lot of the clubs, shirts are changed far too often and then replicas are sold for ridiculous amounts to those same fans and their offspring.
There are obviously too many full time professional clubs but within the game there is little if any desire for radical change so it will stagger on and when another club goes under it will be treated like a national disaster instead of the natural thinning of a bloated herd.

 

[Bobdogs]

No, we don’t. We just have far too much of the available money concentrated on the premier league. Although it’s worth noting that even league two clubs get a million quid a year in TV money.

Divided by 24 I think you'll find that's approximately £42000 each. Can't see the majority of premiership players getting out of bed for that.

 

[hexagon789]

I doubt mergers would be popular either - can you imagine Rangers and Celtic or Hearts and Hibs becoming Glasgow FC and Edinburgh FC?

 

[gg1]

A big part of the problem financially for lower division clubs is excessive wages have crept down to that level too.

This link suggests the average wage for a league 2 player in 2018 was £68,000 per year with a few clubs averaging over £90,000 per year. Admitedly it's a tiny fraction of Premier League wages but still a higher annual salary than most people will (in real terms) ever earn at any point in their working life and it's been paid to sportsmen who are by and large are a long way short of even being in the top 1000 players in England. In any other sport in Britain competitors at that level would be at best semi-professional, or far more likely full amateur.

By way of comparison the 4th tier in Italy and Germany along with the 3rd tier in Spain are all semi-pro leagues split on a regional basis.

 

[telstarbox]

I doubt mergers would be popular either - can you imagine Rangers and Celtic or Hearts and Hibs becoming Glasgow FC and Edinburgh FC?

I agree to an extent - but Glasgow and Edinburgh are probably big enough to sustain two clubs each (and those were all top flight clubs in the last season).

By comparison in Greater Manchester - Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Oldham and Rochdale will have a limited appeal in the shadow of the two very high profile Manchester clubs.

Mergers do happen from time to time such as Dagenham & Redbridge.

Btw do any of the leagues have a requirement that players are "full time"?

 

[d9009alycidon]

I doubt mergers would be popular either - can you imagine Rangers and Celtic or Hearts and Hibs becoming Glasgow FC and Edinburgh FC?

I remember the furious reaction when Wallace Mercer made a serious attempt in 1990 to merge Hearts and Hibs, he received death threats and a Hibs supporter tooled up with an axe was arrested near his house.

 

[d9009alycidon]

I agree to an extent - but Glasgow and Edinburgh are probably big enough to sustain two clubs each (and those were all top flight clubs in the last season).

Yeas but similar to the point you are making about Manchester, there are two other Scottish League Clubs in Glasgow, and another 4 within twelve miles of the city, but each has a unique and proud history and would not ever entertain any idea of amalgamation

 

[SteveM70]

Btw do any of the leagues have a requirement that players are "full time"?

No, but the reality is that a part time team would struggle in a predominantly full time division.

 

[The_Train]

No we don't have too many clubs, the league structure has been in place for many, many years without major issue. Problems have arisen more dramatically ever since 1992 when the Premier League and Sky saw fit to ensure that the top clubs got their hands on all of the money.

I said years ago that the structure would change soon because money wasn't filtering down to the lower leagues and I think covid may just speed that up as we see L1 and L2 edge towards a semi-professional status.

Equally, the EFL have their part to play in the mess that some clubs find themselves in. They claim to operate a 'fit and proper persons' test to ensure prospective owners are suitable and have the funds to operate a football club and yet we continually see frauds and con-merchants being allowed to take control of football clubs. The OP mentions Wigan as an example - Wigan had £9 million of debt in their latest figures which is a lot of money to the average person but in terms of football debts it is relatively low particularly as they have a player earmarked for a £10 million transfer at the end of the season. The administrators have apparently stated that they are one of the best run clubs they have come across and yet they are in administration. Why? Because the EFL allowed a sale to go through 4 weeks ago that involved the seller loaning the buyer £28 million to buy the club and it appears that all parties know each other very well. A Wigan fan on a football forum I use has stated that there is expectations of criminal investigations into this as everyone seems to have disappeared having called in the administrators. Rumour is that the new buyer was to asset strip the club on behalf of the seller and then sell the land the ground is on to developers - fortunately the local council have come out to state that they will reject all forms of planning permission for the land. The EFL sanctioned this sale just 4 weeks ago and still have the audacity to immediately hit Wigan with a 12 point deduction - vermin is probably being too kind to that particular organisation.

Other examples of this sort of thing would be Bury, Charlton & Birmingham - all of whom have suffered from dodgy ownership in recent years

 

[hexagon789]

I agree to an extent - but Glasgow and Edinburgh are probably big enough to sustain two clubs each (and those were all top flight clubs in the last season).

True, it was just an extreme example of the "chaos" that could ensue.

 

[hexagon789]

I remember the furious reaction when Wallace Mercer made a serious attempt in 1990 to merge Hearts and Hibs, he received death threats and a Hibs supporter tooled up with an axe was arrested near his house.

And that's just some of the problems mergers could sadly dredge up

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It was managed in Inverness (albeit with some initial acrimony) in 1994 when Caledonian FC merged with Inverness Thistle FC to form Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC, but undoubtedly mergers have been the exception rather than the norm in recent years.

 

[scotrail158713]

No, but the reality is that a part time team would struggle in a predominantly full time division.

Up here they don’t do too badly actually. Dumbarton are part-time and survived in the Scottish Championship for many years, whilst Alloa are doing the same just now.
However, the EFL is a completely different kettle of fish.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think the idea of deducting points from clubs going into administration is very stupid. The "football industry" should be trying to help clubs encountering financial problems, not make their situation worse -- as it would be if deduction of points leads to relegation.

But if you don't have a sporting penalty for what is, essentially, cheating, then everyone may as well do it. Spend what you want, if it works then brilliant and if it doesn't then meh, administration will sort it.

Bury blew a fortune and won the league just before they went bust. Other clubs, who spent what they had and no more, failed to win because of that distortion. Financial prudence should be rewarded, not punished.

Other examples of this sort of thing would be Bury, Charlton & Birmingham - all of whom have suffered from dodgy ownership in recent years

And most notably Coventry, whose reward for their owners treating everyone like scum has been two promotions in three years.

Coventry should have been booted out of the league for what their hedge fund owners did. If they won't play in Coventry, they can play in the non-league. But no, the Football League just rolled over and had its tummy tickled, just like they always do.

Not a surprise when you look at the EFL's CEO Shaun Harvey- or at least he was till he got a secretive £500,000 payoff in January. He was our CEO at Bradford City when we went bust after Geoffrey Richmond's summer of madness came crashing down, and then he moved to Leeds just as they went pop too. Judging by recent photos, he looks like he's followed our flamboyant ex-Chairman's diet of pure lard too

 

[Tetchytyke]

but still a higher annual salary than most people will (in real terms) ever earn at any point in their working life and it's been paid to sportsmen who are by and large are a long way short of even being in the top 1000 players in England. In any other sport in Britain competitors at that level would be at best semi-professional, or far more likely full amateur.

£68k a year sounds like a lot of money, but it's not really that much, all things considered. It's a comfortable wage but nothing exuberant.

Does any other sport command the crowds that 4th division football does? Our average crowd is 14,300, Plymouth's is 10,000. Not many rugby union Premiership clubs get anywhere near that, except in Twickenham matches. Not many SuperLeague sides do either. Cricket? No. Golf? Swimming? Hockey? Tennis?

 

[UP13]

£68k a year sounds like a lot of money, but it's not really that much, all things considered. It's a comfortable wage but nothing exuberant.

Does any other sport command the crowds that 4th division football does? Our average crowd is 14,300, Plymouth's is 10,000. Not many rugby union Premiership clubs get anywhere near that, except in Twickenham matches. Not many SuperLeague sides do either. Cricket? No. Golf? Swimming? Hockey? Tennis?

Quick search of average crowd sizes from 2018-19 season.

Rugby Union:
Gallagher Premiership - 14,507
Guinness Pro14 - 8,240

Rugby League:
Suoer League XXIII - 8,547

 

[Bevan Price]

But if you don't have a sporting penalty for what is, essentially, cheating, then everyone may as well do it. Spend what you want, if it works then brilliant and if it doesn't then meh, administration will sort it.

Bury blew a fortune and won the league just before they went bust. Other clubs, who spent what they had and no more, failed to win because of that distortion. Financial prudence should be rewarded, not punished.

I would not describe it all as "cheating" - more often it is a case of incompetence or misjudgement, and the loyal fans suffer by being left with "lower quality" or "zero" football to watch.
Although I admit that some vociferous fans are not blameless. They need to recognise that promotion & relegation are facts of life, and that sacking managers and/or unwise spending to try and "keep up with the Jones's" do not often solve the problems. It often takes at least 3 to 5 years to turn round an unsuccessful team, and things may get worse before they start to get better. But, all too often, managers are sacked after one year or less, and the improvement programme has to start again.

 

[37424]

Even if too much money is concentrated at the top we still have too many football clubs, much of football seems to have been an economic basket case for years. Trouble is of course football is very tribal and the idea merging football clubs would be like asking people to make peace with the other side during a war. If a football club is about to go down the pan then instead of letting it go down the pan which you should probably do in many cases there is always a desperate attempt to save it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Even if too much money is concentrated at the top we still have too many football clubs

As a supporter of a 4th division football club, I'd love to see your working out for this one. The only people in the sport who seem to think there's too many clubs are the Premier League, and that's only because they want to fill the Football League with B teams.

I would not describe it all as "cheating" - more often it is a case of incompetence or misjudgement, and the loyal fans suffer by being left with "lower quality" or "zero" football to watch.

It may be mismanagement, but the effect is a club has better players than it can afford and that has an impact on the pitch. Club A offers Good Player what they can afford. Club B offers more, but can't really afford it. Good Player will sign for Club B.

That's exactly why clubs spend more money than they have, to have better players and have more success. Club B spends money they didn't have, go bust, and don't repay suppliers/the taxman, but still have the advantage of Good Player. That's an unfair advantage compared to clubs which are run properly, who didn't have the advantage of Good Player but who pay their suppliers and pay their taxes instead.

There should be a sporting sanction for going bust. And I'm a Bradford City fan- we went bust twice in five years in the 2000s. In fact we were the main reason why the sporting sanctions were brought in!

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Amazing how many times your lot have gone bust and still managed to keep your place in the Football League (which you were elected to in 1903 without ever kicking a round ball). Bradford (Park Avenue) went bust in 1974, owing a paltry £57,000, and paid off 75% of our debts. But we still had to start in the West Riding County Amateur League Division 3! Bradford Northern were also allowed straight back into the Rugby League after they went bust in 1964.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Amazing how many times your lot have gone bust and still managed to keep your place in the Football League (which you were elected to in 1903 without ever kicking a round ball). Bradford (Park Avenue) went bust in 1974, owing a paltry £57,000, and paid off 75% of our debts. But we still had to start in the West Riding County Amateur League Division 3! Bradford Northern were also allowed straight back into the Rugby League after they went bust in 1964.

Interesting, but was there ever any realistic prospect of a new club using the Bradford (Park Avenue) name restarting at other than a relatively low rung after the old club had gone into liquidation in 1974.

My take on the old club's history towards the end was that it had been bumping along at or near the bottom of the Football League in the late 1960s. This was in the days when the Football League was a closed shop, gate monies were shared, and promotion from / relegation to Non League football was arbitrarily decided by ballot at the end of each season. Not so good, therefore, if other club chairman were of a view that your club was relatively unattractive opposition.

Having lost their place to Cambridge United in 1970, matters weren't then helped by the untimely demise of their owner / Chairman Herbert Metcalfe in October that year, who had been bankrolling the team. With no real prospect of a quick return to the Football League, modest debts were incurred (but debts nevertheless) and the Club's home ground had to be sold off in 1973. That meant having to ground share at Valley Parade with the other lot at Bradford City for one last season, with many of their dwindling support vowing to stay away.

So, in 1974, was there any realistic prospect of maintaining a senior Non League team in Bradford, with no ground, little backing (finance or support).

It is to their credit that some supporters were able to keep the old name going by setting up a recreational Sunday League team, but as a new entity, this was inevitably going to have to be at the lowest rung of the football pyramid?

Am I missing anything?

 

[Bald Rick]

With the demise of Bury, and Bolton Wanderers and Wigan Athletic in trouble, do we have too many League clubs chasing too few paying fans - given that TV money is less of a factor outside the top flight?

Generally - no

On the north west side of Greater Manchester - evidently yes.