Are Transport for Wales rail accountable to anyone?

[Chester1]

Being from North Wales and also having lived in South Wales, I can truthfully attest that poverty and underinvestment is equally an issue there as it is up north.

I agree with the prioritisation of public transport investments over road building schemes. I am happy that some of these were scrapped.

Labour increased their vote and seat share in 2021. They are not 'clinging on' when they were elected with a larger mandate. Mark Drakeford will resign this year anyway.

The NHS in Wales has its issues. Would you rather the quasi-privatised system that exists in England? At the current rate, England won't have an NHS and nobody in the Conservative Party is fighting for its survival. Privatisation will be seen as the ''cure" and Tory stooge media will lap it up.

I personally think the railway infrastructure should be fully devolved to the WG. I don't believe Westminster should have any sort of say in Welsh public transport spending decisions whatsoever, seeing as they misjudge HS2 as an 'Englandandwales' project, which could provide £bns in Barnett consequential.

TfW operates in an entirely different economic setup to the English TOCs - almost as different as cross-border services on the continent. I just don't see any semblance of comparison between the two systems that have now developed. And certainly I'd never want Westminster's paws on it again.

The price of never allowing Westminister interference would be carving out cross border services, keeping only Holyhead - Cardiff operating within England. Personally I favour a nationalised British ToC to run cross border services and English intercity services. With Manchester, Birmingham and Crewe run by a British ToC and Borderlands split between TfW and Merseyrail, TfW would be mostly self contained like ScotRail.

 

[Krokodil]

I think there is a misunderstanding regarding the roads review in Wales. The Welsh Government announced an end to new road building UNLESS it achieves the following criteria:
1. To support modal shift and reduce carbon emissions.
2. To improve safety through small scale changes.
3. To adapt to the impact of climate change.
4. To provide access and connectivity to jobs and centres of economic activity in a way that supports modal shift

So given that the A55 flying junctions would have reduced localised pollution, why did the works get cancelled? Particulate emissions around those roundabouts are significantly higher than adjacent parts of the A55 corridor.

I think the railway in Wales and the borders will be transformed in a year or two

Cardiff Valleys will notice a significant change. Everywhere else, not so much. Everything will still be rammed.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

The price of never allowing Westminister interference would be carving out cross border services, keeping only Holyhead - Cardiff operating within England. Personally I favour a nationalised British ToC to run cross border services and English intercity services. With Manchester, Birmingham and Crewe run by a British ToC and Borderlands split between TfW and Merseyrail, TfW would be mostly self contained like ScotRail.

Why not a Mayor for N Wales to counter the south wales politico's over influence, plus you could have reviews by say a future Mayor for Cheshire and the existing Liverpool City Region Mayor. That may temper South Wales based management prioritising certain routes, including one carrying senydd members to Cardiff and back

 

[185]

Today their 1W57 the 0857 Milford Haven to Manchester like many TFW trains never actually made it to Manchester. At the time NRE stated this was terminated at Wilmslow "due to a late running train infront of this one".

There was no train anywhere delaying it which explains the time lost other than it being a decrepit clapped out pair of 153s. Is the late running train the front carriage which delayed the back one? When queried, it now states OU - is "due to a delay not investigated".

Not good.

 

[Topological]

Today their 1W57 the 0857 Milford Haven to Manchester like many TFW trains never actually made it to Manchester. At the time NRE stated this was terminated at Wilmslow "due to a late running train infront of this one".

There was no train anywhere delaying it which explains the time lost other than it being a decrepit clapped out pair of 153s. Is the late running train the front carriage which delayed the back one? When queried, it now states OU - is "due to a delay not investigated".

Not good.

The problem now is that it is hard to tell whether a late running train will make it to Manchester.

Last week I was aiming for the 1730 from Manchester. The inward working was more than 30 late at Shrewsbury and not expected to be at Crewe until 1705 (should be 1630). Then it is about guessing whether to take the 1706 Northern in case the TfW turns, or waiting to see if it makes it to Manchester. In that case the train did make it to Manchester and set off 15 late to go south. I went with safety first and taking the 1706 thus watching the 175/0 go past at Cheadle Hulme and then squeezing onto the train at Wilmslow. Fair play to TfW for actually getting that unit to Manchester, and for actually finding a 175, but this is the way that catching TfW from Manchester is at the moment.

At least going north there is the chance to change onto another train and not be too badly delayed. Setting off from Manchester is just pot luck whether there will be an hour delay.

 

[emoaconr]

The price of never allowing Westminister interference would be carving out cross border services, keeping only Holyhead - Cardiff operating within England. Personally I favour a nationalised British ToC to run cross border services and English intercity services. With Manchester, Birmingham and Crewe run by a British ToC and Borderlands split between TfW and Merseyrail, TfW would be mostly self contained like ScotRail.

Operators cross international borders on the continent with little interference or problem. Some cross deep into the territory of another country. Westminster is a liability with anything outside of England.

 

[WAB]

Operators cross international borders on the continent with little interference or problem. Some cross deep into the territory of another country. Westminster is a liability with anything outside of England.

TfW seems to be a liability everywhere, right now...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes but that completely ignores the point and issue of this thread that there is no oversight by English elected ministers or others for the English elements of services run by TfW. Said english services make up a considerable element of TfW revenues and passengers carried.

It works the other way round for services in Wales run by DfT TOCs (GWR, Avanti, XC).
WG/TfW has very little say in the specification of those operations.
Over the whole spread of cross-border TOCs there's probably some sort of balance between the government responsibilities.
Once specified however, there doesn't seem to much oversight on how services are delivered - Avanti, like TfW, is still falling short on its services in Wales.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

It works the other way round for services in Wales run by DfT TOCs (GWR, Avanti, XC).
WG/TfW has very little say in the specification of those operations.
Over the whole spread of cross-border TOCs there's probably some sort of balance between the government responsibilities.
Once specified however, there doesn't seem to much oversight on how services are delivered - Avanti, like TfW, is still falling short on its services in Wales.

Yes that is a gap and the NW coast had been badly done by Avanti, but it has been equally bad on their other routes. But Avanti are not HM Govt owned, whilst TFW rail is. TFW have been good at over prromising, but not even doing the basics to ensure delivery of projects

The aspiration for one of TFW lines was to increase frequency to half hourly as part of a politically based decision for a N Wales metro., probably put in place to counter the claims of biased investment in the South Wales Metro. How no one in management did not consider the impact on freight services is beyond belief, before these promises were made. The ORR had to mediate and it now transpires no half hourly at rush hour in the evening. Likewise after the delivey of 5 x 230s, which arrived as early as 2020. Yet they only have enough trained staff for one in passenger service for part of the day, and they can't run at weekends, for a reason not made public. Basic project planning would have timelines showing who, what, where and when people need training, but I understand this training was relegated due to 197 training and lack of trainers. Then, compounded by laack of maintenance of other trains, the 30min service is now 2 hourly for just part of the day.
Why is no one other than the local online papers and rail user group are investigating such problems Is it just too big a job for the management, who have the task of taking over lines, implementing multiple new trains at the same time

 

[emoaconr]

Yes that is a gap and the NW coast had been badly done by Avanti, but it has been equally bad on their other routes. But Avanti are not HM Govt owned, whilst TFW rail is. TFW have been good at over prromising, but not even doing the basics to ensure delivery of projects

The aspiration for one of TFW lines was to increase frequency to half hourly as part of a politically based decision for a N Wales metro., probably put in place to counter the claims of biased investment in the South Wales Metro. How no one in management did not consider the impact on freight services is beyond belief, before these promises were made. The ORR had to mediate and it now transpires no half hourly at rush hour in the evening. Likewise after the delivey of 5 x 230s, which arrived as early as 2020. Yet they only have enough trained staff for one in passenger service for part of the day, and they can't run at weekends, for a reason not made public. Basic project planning would have timelines showing who, what, where and when people need training, but I understand this training was relegated due to 197 training and lack of trainers. Then, compounded by laack of maintenance of other trains, the 30min service is now 2 hourly for just part of the day.

So the passengers on the Wrexham-Bidston line are non existent or 'politically based'? A line which has suffered with chronic underinvestment for decades, yet is realistically is a diesel extremity of the Merseyrail network and intrinsic link between NE Wales and Merseyside? Sorry, but I think most local people are on the side of improving this service.

Just a reminder that Avanti abandoned the NW Coast line for almost three years, and got away with it. Where was the scrutiny there? Oh of course, Westminster awarded them an extension.

 

[Chester1]

Why not a Mayor for N Wales to counter the south wales politico's over influence, plus you could have reviews by say a future Mayor for Cheshire and the existing Liverpool City Region Mayor. That may temper South Wales based management prioritising certain routes, including one carrying senydd members to Cardiff and back

The devolved governments have no interest in Combined Authorities and Mayors. All are for parts of England. The trend of devolution has been to pass powers down from Westminster and up from local authorities, more so in Scotland than Wales though. Its worth noting that Greater Manchester has a similar population to Wales, so its understandable. The latest devolution package essentially will give Greater Manchester a block grant like the devolved nations but with significant restrictions on how its spent.

So the passengers on the Wrexham-Bidston line are non existent or 'politically based'? A line which has suffered with chronic underinvestment for decades, yet is realistically is a diesel extremity of the Merseyrail network and intrinsic link between NE Wales and Merseyside? Sorry, but I think most local people are on the side of improving this service.

Just a reminder that Avanti abandoned the NW Coast line for almost three years, and got away with it. Where was the scrutiny there? Oh of course, Westminster awarded them an extension.

Would you have preferred TfW to have cut services even further during the pandemic? Cutting Avanti services to the minimum to maintain route knowledge was a sensible decision due to size of trains and stations served. Maybe the cuts went on for too long but the decision was sensible.

Bidston - Wrexham is not a natural route and is the product of the slow expansion of Merseyrail during 20th century and closure of line to Seacombe. The obvious long term solution is Merseyrail running battery 777s to Heswell, Neston or Shotton depending on range and political agreement. They can be accountable to their electorate and TfW to theirs.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

No I welcome the investment, but lets face it we have been lucky to get investment as the Welsh Govt could not really be seen to invest in the South Wales Metro without implementing some improvements up North. What has been abysmal is the implementation, with poor decisions and over promising by management and politicians.

I picked up the N Wales Mayor concept from a business owner of a Welsh comany in Deeside who does not think the political set up is providing and adequate representation for his region of Wales. He felt a strong NW Mayor could better stand up for N Wales projects. If a mayor had been in place perhaps the implementaion might have been better scrutinised.

As for spliting line, I hate that concept at Ormskirk, Kirkby and Ellesmere Port, as it creates artificial barriers to travel. With Battery 777s and a a few bits of fast charging, Mersyrail could run to Wrexham, which forms part of the Wider Liverpool City region along with Flintshire and Cheshire West and Chester. Cross border travell each day both ways for work and leisure is massive

And don't forget Westminster pays the Welsh Goverenment to run the services in England, so it is not just Welsh Govt funding forthcoming

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The business owner was the boss of Toyota on Deeside, where they have an engine manufacturing plant, mostly for cars made in Derby.
He's part of the lobby group for a UK battery factory for electric cars (else the engine plant might move overseas).
He thinks a local Mayor would promote the region's (cross-border) industry better.
The WG has a lot to do to maintain and grow the current industrial cluster in NE Wales (Airbus, Toyota, Tata, Shotton Paper etc).

While we are at it, I noticed a car park full of brand new Bentleys next door to Crewe PSB this week.
It can't be easy manufacturing luxury cars at the moment (in this case Volkswagen).

 

[Krokodil]

So the passengers on the Wrexham-Bidston line are non existent or 'politically based'? A line which has suffered with chronic underinvestment for decades, yet is realistically is a diesel extremity of the Merseyrail network and intrinsic link between NE Wales and Merseyside? Sorry, but I think most local people are on the side of improving this service.

Wrexham probably counts as "red wall", though I imagine that most constituents don't use the Borderlands line and if they use rail at all it'll be main line services. Most of the other seats on the map are safe Labour seats so neither party will care about them - the Conservatives because they can't win them, Labour because they can't lose them. If you're not in a marginal constituency then no one in politics will care about you.

 

[daveo]

All regions seem to have the same hard-done by outlook and perhaps should acknowledge that the grass isn't always greener... the tiresome Andy Burnham for example is someone I consider to be the worst offender of this*, always moaning about how the government have failed "the people of greater Manchester, and not realising that outside of their own territories there are situations just as tiresome.

Similarly, outside of North Wales, there are similar issues:

SWR, for example, with a reduced service due to broken 159s.
TPE, for example, cancelling a shocking number of services in the North east due to driver shortages.

Last year - or it might have been the year before, TfW's driver shortages caused chaos in South Wales, the Valleys by far the hardest hit in particular.

*Particularly, I'll never forget his tweet "And to think of all the sacrifices the people of Greater Manchester made" after the No10 parties scandal emerged, as if everyone else in the UK had lived la vida loka during lockdowns.

Andy Burnham is elected and employed to represent and speak for the people of Greater Manchester. I am sure if you asked him he would acknowledge the situations elsewhere, but he has no mandate to address them publically.

 

[Krokodil]

Andy Burnham is elected and employed to represent and speak for the people of Greater Manchester. I am sure if you asked him he would acknowledge the situations elsewhere, but he has no mandate to address them publically.

It's more the way he phrased it. Like GM uniquely made those sacrifices. Better to say "after the sacrifices we all made".

 

[DLAYKEGER]

The business owner was the boss of Toyota on Deeside, where they have an engine manufacturing plant, mostly for cars made in Derby.
He's part of the lobby group for a UK battery factory for electric cars (else the engine plant might move overseas).
He thinks a local Mayor would promote the region's (cross-border) industry better.
The WG has a lot to do to maintain and grow the current industrial cluster in NE Wales (Airbus, Toyota, Tata, Shotton Paper etc).

While we are at it, I noticed a car park full of brand new Bentleys next door to Crewe PSB this week.
It can't be easy manufacturing luxury cars at the moment (in this case Volkswagen).

That was not the person I was saying who advocated a mayor, but if someone thst senior in Toyota says that, there is probably merit

Just because career politicians are peddling the latest thinktank derived ideas, does not make them right. Maybe what he says as an employer, in N Wales is very relavant.

Original Equipment Managers are used to solving issues, and he / she has probably has skills at problem solving and asking pertinant questions to get the job done. I''ve seen this in practice at Jaguar Landrover Halewood that turned a poor ford plant to one of there best worldwide and you know what they did was effectively mimic what Toyota does in terms of quality and deliverables. If only TFW rail had such managers

 

[emoaconr]

The devolved governments have no interest in Combined Authorities and Mayors. All are for parts of England. The trend of devolution has been to pass powers down from Westminster and up from local authorities, more so in Scotland than Wales though. Its worth noting that Greater Manchester has a similar population to Wales, so its understandable. The latest devolution package essentially will give Greater Manchester a block grant like the devolved nations but with significant restrictions on how its spent.



Would you have preferred TfW to have cut services even further during the pandemic? Cutting Avanti services to the minimum to maintain route knowledge was a sensible decision due to size of trains and stations served. Maybe the cuts went on for too long but the decision was sensible.

Bidston - Wrexham is not a natural route and is the product of the slow expansion of Merseyrail during 20th century and closure of line to Seacombe. The obvious long term solution is Merseyrail running battery 777s to Heswell, Neston or Shotton depending on range and political agreement. They can be accountable to their electorate and TfW to theirs.

I don't know what implicit connotation you suggest from my post, but as somebody from Wrexham who lives locally, this is, always was and will remain so, a vital route in NE Wales and Merseyside. You are incorrect however in suggesting trains will be severed Ormskirk-style at Neston and Shotton; Merseytravel and WG have a working agreement that improvements will aspire towards full Wrexham-Liverpool. I'm afraid it will be all or nothing, and would be politically toxic for both sides to sever at a false terminus. WG and Merseytravel cooperated on the Halton Curve, and are have far more in common than the circus of the DfT.

This is like basically suggesting that there should be no cross border services anywhere in the world to be "accountable" to only one specific legislature.

 

[185]

Believe Transport for Wales were P-coding again tonight. Their last two Cardiff - Manchesters 1W65 & 1W26 both terminated at Crewe, despite the line being open for the journey up and the journey back from Manchester. Units were lying around the station all evening so they were not short of trains, guessing it's staff shortages.

 

[riceuten]

I suspect your perspective on this depends for the most part on your political orientation.

 

[Krokodil]

I suspect your perspective on this depends for the most part on your political orientation.

Which is why as a swing voter I'm of the view that both the Conservative government in Westminster AND the Labour government in Cardiff need replacing. Both have been in power for far too long which breeds complacency. The same could probably be said of the SNP in Holyrood, but I'll let a Scot give a more informed view there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Labour in Cardiff is essentially permanent, unless they team up with Plaid as now which is, if anything, worse for east Wales/Marches/cross-border policy.

 

[Krokodil]

Labour in Cardiff is essentially permanent, unless they team up with Plaid as now which is, if anything, worse for east Wales/Marches/cross-border policy.

I wouldn't mind if it meant more investment in the Plaid heartlands of North West Wales, but I doubt it will. Carmarthen-Aberystwyth would never wash its face even though the nationalists hate the very idea of travelling via England, but Bangor-Afon Wen stands a better chance, and Caernarfon is a worthwhile reopening in its own right. It'll never happen though, the WAG will never show an interest north of the Heads of the Valleys Road.

 

[Jez]

Well nearly 4 months on from when the (vast majority of) 175's were withdrawn at the start of March, things seem no better than they were then.

It annoys me that TFW put out a statement a few weeks ago saying all but 2 of the 175s were now repaired. Anyone reading that would assume that the service would revert to how it was before with the majority of the long distance services operated by 175s. However a quick scan of RTT on any given days shows us this is simply not the case. On a good day we might get 7 or 8 in service, but often its 5 and today seems to be just 3 of the 175s in service. We also know quite a few of the 2 cars have been withdrawn and the rest will go in a few months. Then the 3 cars will go soon after. They seem quite happy to continue with the current abundance of 150 and 153s on the long distance routes, despite them being unsuitable both for comfort and capacity. Would it not be better if they admitted this will be the case until enough 197s are available to take over fully from the 175s?

Last Summer was dire and we said 'oh well at least by next Summer things should be a lot better'. Well yet again here we are well into the Summer and things are worst if anything!

 

[Krokodil]

Well nearly 4 months on from when the (vast majority of) 175's were withdrawn at the start of March, things seem no better than they were then.

Things are better. Services to Liverpool and Blaenau Ffestiniog have been reinstated. We are seeing double 197s working Manchester services on some diagrams - some even heading south of Chester now.

 

[mrd269697]

The service on the Bidston to Wrexham line has been abysmal. The 230’s are absolutely useless. Take them off passenger service until their faults are fixed and out the 150’s back. It’s unacceptable this line has had basically an unusable service for months now. Get it fixed. It’s not hard. They insist on using the 230’s. They’re useless.

To think this line was supposed to go half hourly from 2021. Half the time there isn’t a train at all.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've seen a report somewhere of a recent consultant's study about rail in North Wales.
It said there was no business case for any reopenings, but backed improvements at Chester to increase capacity and flexibility.
That would mean a new island platform for Merseyrail, freeing up P7 for TfW.
Better interchange at Shotton, a new station at Deeside and resignalling at Gobowen came into it as well.

Chester has just started a mainly cosmetic station upgrade (concourse, gate-line, PIS etc).
Improvements at Flint and Runcorn East will follow.

 

[Jez]

Things are better. Services to Liverpool and Blaenau Ffestiniog have been reinstated. We are seeing double 197s working Manchester services on some diagrams - some even heading south of Chester now.

Yes things are better in the North thanks to more 197s in service.

However the long distance South Wales to North Wales/Manchester service is still abysmal most of the time. And its gone on far too long. I was at Neath waiting for my local train back home earlier on. The service to Crewe came in (1305) formed of a single 150. Literally full and standing right up to the doors ! Was glad I wasn't getting on that one! The Swanline 15 mins of so later was fortunately less busy but still a fairly good loading of passengers. Formed with a pair of 153s. Now that is one improvement the Swanline being back to a separate service otherwise the Manchesters would be even more crammed.

 

[Penmorfa]

Things are better. Services to Liverpool and Blaenau Ffestiniog have been reinstated. We are seeing double 197s working Manchester services on some diagrams - some even heading south of Chester now.

The Conwy Valley line is shut until at least next Tuesday, I underrstand this is because of a badger set beneath the line!

 

[zwk500]

The Conwy Valley line is shut until at least next Tuesday, I underrstand this is because of a badger set beneath the line!

Specific thread here:

Conwy Valley Line closed

If they can get away with it, they (or their contractors) will absolutely do so. After all, the fudiciary duty of the management of NR or its contractors would drive them to take said expedient action as far as they can get away with. That’s a very unfair, and offensive to the staff working...

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