Are you proud to be a train driver?

[Zoidberg]

And more modern planes have autoland as well as autopilot. That's been a factor in several mishaps- some airlines only train their pilots to use the automation, so when it's not available for whatever reason their hand-flying skills are barely competent.

...

That is scary!

 

[EazyGuy]

That is scary!

And completely untrue.


Don't listen to people who simply have no idea what they're talking about.

 

[redbutton]

And completely untrue.


Don't listen to people who simply have no idea what they're talking about.

It was a factor in the Asiana Air 777 at San Francisco a couple of years ago, and that wasn't the first.

 

[KT530]

I often felt like that when I was a bus driver but maybe it was just my paranoia?

Having done both, I would say the general public perception is of the Train Driver being higher calibre and commands more respect.

In reality, both are highly trained Professionals in their own fields of work and should command equal respect, although whereas the Rail have set standards, the standard of training on Bus & Coach varies considerably from company to company.

 

[link1driver]

Yes I'm proud to be a Train Driver. Why? Because I wanted to be a Driver since I was a young boy and I achieved my ambition at a relatively young age. I passed the barrage of tests first time and I passed the intense 12 month training programme. I'm now trusted to operate equipment worth millions of pounds travelling at incredible speeds over long distances carrying priceless cargo with minimal supervision from my managers. The money is nice but I wanted to be a Driver when the wages were nowhere near todays salary and I'd have joined up whatever the rate of pay was.

Knowing I've taken my passengers to their job, family, friends, holiday or wherever they're going in comfort without them giving me a second thought - they may have spent the journey gazing out of the window, watching a film, reading a book, sleeping - and if they felt comfortable enough to relax onboard then I did my job right and that makes me feel good that I've not factored into their minds at all. This job has its down side make no mistake but on the whole I still love climbing into the cab where I can set myself up how I want, be in my own space, relax, take power and drive off through some incredible scenery.

Just what he said, last week for example I had driven from Edinburgh to Aberdeen, when I arrived in 7South, awaiting the Conductor walking down the train I just happened to catch the last of a conversation an old couple were having with the Conductor, it went along the lines of "thanks for such a smooth journey, which the Conductor replied that it's nothing to do with him and pointed to myself, and said its him you should thank, they just looked me up and down, never said a word and walked off". Cheers for that folks:cry:

 

[SPADTrap]

And completely untrue.


Don't listen to people who simply have no idea what they're talking about.

It is wholly dross. The issue he quotes regarding Asiana is far more complex than that, that is a misunderstood explanation at best.

 

[EssexGonzo]

How is a Pacer any different to drive than a 150/153 etc?

One suspects that the poster's tongue was firmly in his cheek......:roll:

Back to the original question, why shouldn't you be proud? if you have a job that fulfils your needs - be it a dream, job satisfaction, self esteem or just something to pay the bills - that you can do well, you should be proud. Doesn't matter what the job is. Different things are important to each of us.

 

[Zoidberg]

And more modern planes have autoland as well as autopilot. That's been a factor in several mishaps- some airlines only train their pilots to use the automation, so when it's not available for whatever reason their hand-flying skills are barely competent.

...

That is scary!

And completely untrue.


Don't listen to people who simply have no idea what they're talking about.

It was a factor in the Asiana Air 777 at San Francisco a couple of years ago, and that wasn't the first.

It is wholly dross. The issue he quotes regarding Asiana is far more complex than that, that is a misunderstood explanation at best.

Phew! Pleased to hear it.

 

[plastictaffy]

And more modern planes have autoland as well as autopilot.

Apparently, less than one percent of landings are actually automatic, according to this guy.

That explains the horrendous bounce on return from Turkey this year!!!!

 

[red2005]

I am extremely proud!

To be perfectly honest i couldn't give a frogs fat behind what the general public's perception of train drivers are.

I am in the grade and don't just rely on what a newspaper tells me, i know the levels of professionalism that are required to do the job and i know what my job is worth.

I am very proud that a company has seen enough in me to put their trust in me to transport cargo that you simply cannot put a price on in a safe manner when they could of picked thousands of others to do it. I am also proud to do it as i know despite what some think it simply isn't a job anyone can do.

I also know how hard it is to get this job in the first place and how much hard work you have to do!.....so i am extremely proud to do a job i know i worked my backside off for and do it safely and professionally every single day!

what's not to be proud of?.......YOU ARE A TRAIN DRIVER!

 

[TOCDriver]

It's a job with much better pay than hauling Sainsbury's stock about in a articulated lorry like I used to do. I really can't understand this pride business, but then wouldn't we all be boring if we were the same? I can understand the freight boys having a bit of pride in what they do - that's one tough job and a very undervalued one in my humble opinion.

 

[notadriver]

It seems that people here snipe at the profession from all directions.

 

[Dave1987]

Apparently, less than one percent of landings are actually automatic, according to this guy.

That explains the horrendous bounce on return from Turkey this year!!!!

If you watch the many YouTube videos available or PilotsEye DVD's which I do (aviation is kinda my passion) you will see that pilots use the automation and are told by the airlines to use the automation a lot more than he makes out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And completely untrue.


Don't listen to people who simply have no idea what they're talking about.

Whilst I agree with you to a certain extent, several crashes in the history of aviation have been caused by crews reliance on automation or misunderstanding of it. Airlines know the auto flight systems can fly the aircraft way more efficiently than a pilot can so want their crews to use it to fly efficiently and reduce their work load. They train enough though on simulators to mean they are perfectly capable of hand flying their aircraft but it is by no means the norm for a crew to hand fly a modern airliner.

 

[Bromley boy]

If you watch the many YouTube videos available or PilotsEye DVD's which I do (aviation is kinda my passion) you will see that pilots use the automation and are told by the airlines to use the automation a lot more than he makes out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Whilst I agree with you to a certain extent, several crashes in the history of aviation have been caused by crews reliance on automation or misunderstanding of it. Airlines know the auto flight systems can fly the aircraft way more efficiently than a pilot can so want their crews to use it to fly efficiently and reduce their work load. They train enough though on simulators to mean they are perfectly capable of hand flying their aircraft but it is by no means the norm for a crew to hand fly a modern airliner.

Worth nothing that airline pilots flying the line have regular sim checks during which they are required to hand fly a variety of manoeuvres including takeoff, assymetric power departures, holding patterns, approaches etc. They often regularly disengage the autopilot on approach and hand-fly final approach and landing to maintain proficiency.

An interesting discussion.


One incident I might, in part, agree with you on is the AF447. This was caused by a design flaw in the instruments causing faulty readings but was made worse by the first officer not believing the aircraft was stalled. By the time the more experienced captain had arrived on the flight deck it was too late to rectify the sitiation.

There is a feeling in the industry that training on heavily automated and complex aircraft can cause pilots to lose sight of basic flying techniques - this is particularly true for pilots who begin flying heavy jets very early in their careers rather than working their way up from smaller aircraft as they would have done in the past. However, even in this case, it is arguably a training flaw rather than automation per-se which was responsible.

 

[EazyGuy]

Worth nothing that airline pilots flying the line have regular sim checks during which they are required to hand fly a variety of manoeuvres including takeoff, assymetric power departures, holding patterns, approaches etc. They often regularly disengage the autopilot on approach and hand-fly final approach and landing to maintain proficiency.

An interesting discussion.


One incident I might, in part, agree with you on is the AF447. This was caused by a design flaw in the instruments causing faulty readings but was made worse by the first officer not believing the aircraft was stalled. By the time the more experienced captain had arrived on the flight deck it was too late to rectify the sitiation.

There is a feeling in the industry that training on heavily automated and complex aircraft can cause pilots to lose sight of basic flying techniques - this is particularly true for pilots who begin flying heavy jets very early in their careers rather than working their way up from smaller aircraft as they would have done in the past. However, even in this case, it is arguably a training flaw rather than automation per-se which was responsible.

Excellent post

 

[Phil.]

And more modern planes have autoland as well as autopilot. That's been a factor in several mishaps- some airlines only train their pilots to use the automation, so when it's not available for whatever reason their hand-flying skills are barely competent.

That said, starting salaries for airline pilots are far lower than for us train drivers. And most pilots have to pay for their own training.

So we do have it very good, at least in that respect.

Now I've seen some spectacularly mis-informed remarks but that just about takes the biscuit .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or point out that from 70mph, the train will take a damn sight longer to come to a stop compared to his coach!

Ah but if was a coach driver - which I'm not - I would be asking the train driver how often does he check the rear view mirrors, how much effort does he put in watching out for other traffic, how he manages to steer and change gear at the same time, how much passenger luggage does he assist with.
Now excuse me whilst I go and don my flak jacket.

 

[notadriver]

Now I've seen some spectacularly mis-informed remarks but that just about takes the biscuit .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---






Ah but if was a coach driver - which I'm not - I would be asking the train driver how often does he check the rear view mirrors, how much effort does he put in watching out for other traffic, how he manages to steer and change gear at the same time, how much passenger luggage does he assist with.

Now excuse me whilst I go and don my flak jacket.

I'm a coach driver .... I drove one into London about 2 weeks ago. All of the skills you mention are extensions of my car driving ones it's just the vehicle is bigger and heavier.

 

[Dave1987]

Worth nothing that airline pilots flying the line have regular sim checks during which they are required to hand fly a variety of manoeuvres including takeoff, assymetric power departures, holding patterns, approaches etc. They often regularly disengage the autopilot on approach and hand-fly final approach and landing to maintain proficiency.

An interesting discussion.


One incident I might, in part, agree with you on is the AF447. This was caused by a design flaw in the instruments causing faulty readings but was made worse by the first officer not believing the aircraft was stalled. By the time the more experienced captain had arrived on the flight deck it was too late to rectify the sitiation.

There is a feeling in the industry that training on heavily automated and complex aircraft can cause pilots to lose sight of basic flying techniques - this is particularly true for pilots who begin flying heavy jets very early in their careers rather than working their way up from smaller aircraft as they would have done in the past. However, even in this case, it is arguably a training flaw rather than automation per-se which was responsible.

Indeed but what we need to remember is the airlines want their aircraft flown as efficiently as possible. Modern RNAV systems with VNAV can calculate a constant descent path to keep the engines on idle far more accurately than the crew can. But at the same time you need to keep the pilots in practice of hand flying, but that is were the use of FAA/CAA certified simulators come in which are extremely accurate. The other reason that pilots disengage the auto flight systems at 1000ft AGL is because the modern ILS/Microwave landing systems are so accurate aircraft were all landing on exactly the same patch of tarmac and wearing it out. They also need to do so many Cat 3 autolands to keep their proficiency.

Anyway I digress from the subject of this thread.

I am proud of being a train driver? YES MOST DEFINITELY!

I've worked damn hard to get to the position I'm in. You hear a lot of drivers moaning about the job and you say to them quit if you don't like it, but they never will because they know they won't get anywhere near the wages or the job security elsewhere. There are thousands of people who will quite happily replace the people who don't like the job.

 

[Bromley boy]

Indeed but what we need to remember is the airlines want their aircraft flown as efficiently as possible. Modern RNAV systems with VNAV can calculate a constant descent path to keep the engines on idle far more accurately than the crew can. But at the same time you need to keep the pilots in practice of hand flying, but that is were the use of FAA/CAA certified simulators come in which are extremely accurate. The other reason that pilots disengage the auto flight systems at 1000ft AGL is because the modern ILS/Microwave landing systems are so accurate aircraft were all landing on exactly the same patch of tarmac and wearing it out. They also need to do so many Cat 3 autolands to keep their proficiency.

Anyway I digress from the subject of this thread.

I am proud of being a train driver? YES MOST DEFINITELY!

I've worked damn hard to get to the position I'm in. You hear a lot of drivers moaning about the job and you say to them quit if you don't like it, but they never will because they know they won't get anywhere near the wages or the job security elsewhere. There are thousands of people who will quite happily replace the people who don't like the job.

All true but, to discuss flying again briefly, having read your previous posts, it's not fair IMHO to accuse airline pilots of being "barely competent" in hand flying skills. You may be an aviation enthusiast, but have you ever flown an aircraft or done any training towards the commercial licences and ratings? It's no walk in the park I can assure you. If not, you're in no position to make such a sweeping statement.

Your comment equates to people outside the rail industry saying "isn't it just stop and go" for train drivers. I'm sure you don't appreciate such comments when, as a train driver yourself, you know there is clearly much more at play. I'm sure you didn't intend that, but maybe something to consider when discussing the professions of others on a public forum.

Re train driver "prestige". As someone about to begin training as a driver there is a lot of ignorance out there, for sure. But this has been a dream for a long time. So I don't care.

 

[Dave1987]

All true but, to discuss flying again briefly, having read your previous posts, it's not fair IMHO to accuse airline pilots of being "barely competent" in hand flying skills. You may be an aviation enthusiast, but have you ever flown an aircraft or done any training towards the commercial licences and ratings? It's no walk in the park I can assure you. If not, you're in no position to make such a sweeping statement.

Your comment equates to people outside the rail industry saying "isn't it just stop and go" for train drivers. I'm sure you don't appreciate such comments when, as a train driver yourself, you know there is clearly much more at play. I'm sure you didn't intend that, but maybe something to consider when discussing the professions of others on a public forum.

Re train driver "prestige". As someone about to begin training as a driver there is a lot of ignorance out there, for sure. But this has been a dream for a long time. So I don't care.

 

[Bromley boy]

sorry but I never ever said anything of the sort. I know the training commercial pilots go through. What I said was that the majority of hand flying is conducted on simulators which are highly accurate, and all commercial pilots should be highly competent in hand flying their aircraft. But most in service flights are conducted with majority use of the auto flight systems as they are far more efficient at flying the aircraft.

Well I copied your post verbatim, so you most certainly did. I note you've now deleted your previous posts. You may know the training pilots go through, my question was have you been through it yourself?!

If not, I repeat my previous point! If you think being an airline pilot is so easy, maybe being a train driver is as well...

 

[Dave1987]

Well I copied your post verbatim, so you most certainly did. I note you've now deleted your previous posts. You may know the training pilots go through, my question was have you been through it yourself?!

If not, I repeat my previous point! If you think being an airline pilot is so easy, maybe being a train driver is as well...

What?!?! I haven't deleted ANY of my posts on this thread. It was someone else who said that not me!

No I haven't been through commercial pilot training and have never claimed I have. I know someone who has and someone else who is currently going through it at the moment, so know what's involved. I have never ever said being a commercial pilot is "easy". End of!!

 

[Bromley boy]

What?!?! I haven't deleted ANY of my posts on this thread. It was someone else who said that not me!

No I haven't been through commercial pilot training and have never claimed I have. I know someone who has and someone else who is currently going through it at the moment, so know what's involved. I have never ever said being a commercial pilot is "easy". End of!!

Apologies, I see that was indeed someone else - my bad.

 

[Dave1987]

Apologies, I see that was indeed someone else - my bad.

Apology accepted.