Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[alex397]

Personally I think Arriva should sell Southend and maybe Colchester as well. I have heard very good things about Ensignbus so it would be great if they were to take over Arriva's routes in Southend

Ensignbus are a superb company, but I think they are quite happy with their local Thurrock network as well as their large amount of specialist work (I.e Amazon contracts, rail replacement, Southend open top). Taking on a large network such as Southend would be a huge move.

Remember they expanded into Brentwood and put a lot of effort into it, but it didn’t work out and they pulled out. That was quite a small operation too, although Brentwood isn’t exactly good bus territory compared to Southend.

 

[cnjb8]

Ensignbus are a superb company, but I think they are quite happy with their local Thurrock network as well as their large amount of specialist work (I.e Amazon contracts, rail replacement, Southend open top). Taking on a large network such as Southend would be a huge move.

Remember they expanded into Brentwood and put a lot of effort into it, but it didn’t work out and they pulled out. That was quite a small operation too, although Brentwood isn’t exactly good bus territory compared to Southend.

Wouldn’t it be different if Ensign acquire an already established operator?

 

[MotCO]

It would seem that Colchester is a more marginal operation

Has any effort been put into turning Colchester into a profitable operation? If it failed because it was managed from afar by Arriva, maybe local management with discretion, ideas and flair could turn it round. Think Arriva and Metrobus in Crawley.

 

[Class465pacer]

I can see Stagecoach slowly taking over Arriva's territory in Kent if the latter goes longer without putting any investment in

 

[cnjb8]

I can see Stagecoach slowly taking over Arriva's territory in Kent if the latter goes longer without putting any investment in

I don’t think Arriva in Kent can survive without some investment now, there are just so many vehicles from 2006 or older

 

[Blindtraveler]

When was the "Sapphire" fleet on services from the Medway towns to Maidstone and Bluewater last changed?

I think Stagecoach will continue to cherry-pick bits of the network that they either think they can make a profit from all the dovetail with their existing operations. The service 12 from Maidstone to Tenterden seems the next logical encroachment if Arriva ever cut it back or if reliability on the route suffers badly. Can't see Stagecoach having much interest in a lot of the suburban trundle in and around Maidstone Medway and and Northfleet though

 

[Typhoon]

When was the "sapphire" fleet on services from the Medway towns to Maidstone and Bluewater last changed?

I think stagecoach will continue to cherry-pick bits of the network that they either think they can make a profit from all the dovetail with there are existing operations. The service 12 from Maidstone to tenterden seems the next logical encroachment if arriva ever cut it back or if reliability on the route suffers badly. Can't see Stagecoach having much interest in a lot of the suburban trundle in and around Maidstone Medway and and northfleet though

I'm not sure about Maidstone to Tenterden. Its a pretty healthy half hourly service (hourly Saturday and Sunday) and probably does a fair amount of business in Maidstone itself. There is traffic congestion just south of the town where two radial roads meet but that will affect any provider operating the route. Stagecoach itself has reduced the frequency of its main services in the Tenterden area fairly recently from hourly to two-hourly so it does not seem to think that it is prime bus territory (except, perhaps, for pass holders).

The difference between the 12 and extending the 3 to Maidstone is that the latter reinstates a section of route that Arriva dropped recently and also enables passengers to again travel from Faversham and along the London Road to Maidstone without changing buses so they are likely to have some passengers for whom the route is preferable to Arriva's 334, and both school pupils and workers did catch the bus when there was a through service. Many years ago (some journeys on) the 12 continued to Rye but I suspect that was a through route of logistic convenience rather than enabling more than the occasional passenger to travel between Maidstone and Rye.

There are also logistic reasons why it is unlikely. The nearest garage is Ashford, which is some way from both Tenterden and Maidatone.

I suspect Stagecoach will see how Arriva reacts to this incursion before plotting any next move.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm not sure about Maidstone to Tenterden. Its a pretty healthy half hourly service (hourly Saturday and Sunday) and probably does a fair amount of business in Maidstone itself. There is traffic congestion just south of the town where two radial roads meet but that will affect any provider operating the route. Stagecoach itself has reduced the frequency of its main services in the Tenterden area fairly recently from hourly to two-hourly so it does not seem to think that it is prime bus territory (except, perhaps, for pass holders).

The difference between the 12 and extending the 3 to Maidstone is that the latter reinstates a section of route that Arriva dropped recently and also enables passengers to again travel from Faversham and along the London Road to Maidstone without changing buses so they are likely to have some passengers for whom the route is preferable to Arriva's 334, and both school pupils and workers did catch the bus when there was a through service. Many years ago (some journeys on) the 12 continued to Rye but I suspect that was a through route of logistic convenience rather than enabling more than the occasional passenger to travel between Maidstone and Rye.

There are also logistic reasons why it is unlikely. The nearest garage is Ashford, which is some way from both Tenterden and Maidatone.

I suspect Stagecoach will see how Arriva reacts to this incursion before plotting any next move.

I share some of your reservations. Whilst Ashford is closer to Tenterden than Maidstone, it's obviously a distance from the route itself and so it would require some interworking and clever scheduling.

I suspect that Stagecoach's more immediate objective is to gently encourage Arriva to concede that Sittingbourne isn't worth the hassle and they pull off the locals and the other routes. What Arriva's response will be....?

As with much of Arriva, the lack of investment is now beginning to show (compounded by the issue of Covid) and Kent is simply a reflection of this greater company wide malaise.

 

[alex397]

I don’t think Arriva in Kent can survive without some investment now, there are just so many vehicles from 2006 or older

There’s definitely some investment needed. Some of the older buses seem to be kept in decent condition particularly at Tunbridge Wells, but it’s still hit and miss. They still have a large fleet of about 40 B7TL/ALX400s from 2004 which surely must need replacing in the near future.

When was the "sapphire" fleet on services from the Medway towns to Maidstone and Bluewater last changed?

These routes have actually had a bit of a downgrade. Arriva sent some of the newer Enviro400 buses to Leicester for the air quality zone, which never even went ahead. In return, Kent have received older B7TLs. Ideally routes like the 101 and 700 should be periodically receiving new vehicles, enabling a cascade to other routes, rather than buses just being cherry picked to help other companies.

 

[Man of Kent]

There’s definitely some investment needed. Some of the older buses seem to be kept in decent condition particularly at Tunbridge Wells, but it’s still hit and miss. They still have a large fleet of about 40 B7TL/ALX400s from 2004 which surely must need replacing in the near future.

These routes have actually had a bit of a downgrade. Arriva sent some of the newer Enviro400 buses to Leicester for the air quality zone, which never even went ahead. In return, Kent have received older B7TLs. Ideally routes like the 101 and 700 should be periodically receiving new vehicles, enabling a cascade to other routes, rather than buses just being cherry picked to help other companies.

The 101 was due to get new vehicles in the autumn of 2019. They were next in the queue for Streetdecks, after those delivered to Arriva Yorkshire for their 110 service. But then Wrights went belly up, the Yorkshire order was never completed, a pandemic arrived and the 101 retains its 6 and 7 year old fleet.

It is unlikely that anyone will place large orders for new buses until the extent and conditions of the long-promised government funding is known. Ironically if this is aimed at getting older, more polluting buses off the road, perhaps Arriva will do better out of it than Stagecoach!

 

[cnjb8]

These routes have actually had a bit of a downgrade. Arriva sent some of the newer Enviro400 buses to Leicester for the air quality zone, which never even went ahead. In return, Kent have received older B7TLs. Ideally routes like the 101 and 700 should be periodically receiving new vehicles, enabling a cascade to other routes, rather than buses just being cherry picked to help other companies.

Sort of true, the Enviros left for Yorkshire which displaced the Olympus buses to Leicester, and the Gemini’s came to Kent

 

[MotCO]

Sort of true, the Enviros left for Yorkshire which displaced the Olympus buses to Leicester, and the Gemini’s came to Kent

But the ironic thing is that the clean air zone in Leicester was never introduced. It seems a smart move by Leicester to get new buses into their area - could Kent do likewise

 

[cnjb8]

But the ironic thing is that the clean air zone in Leicester was never introduced. It seems a smart move by Leicester to get new buses into their area - could Kent do likewise

Yes it is a bit cheeky, it was going ahead when all this happened though. The ironic thing is the Yorkshire Olympus buses had the Euro 6 for the Leeds CAZ that never went ahead either!

 

[Blindtraveler]

Last trip I had on the 101 the vehicle was in decent shape but was beginning to struggle a bit on on the faster hillier sections along the dual carriageway. As pointed out earlier roots like this should really get a regular supply of new buses in order to cascade others elsewhere for study but gradual fleet renewal

 

[JL1]

I can really see Arriva sending the 66 reg E400 MMC's from Southend to Kent and some of the older deckers coming the other way, gonna be interesting to see whats happens over the coming months.

 

[duncombec]

More accounts released on 12 April (London) and 18 May:
London North: Profit 5.6m (down by half, previous year was a one-off gain, consistent with prior years)
London South: Profit 9.3m (up from 7m, increase in turnover/cost savings)
Merseyside: Loss 1.79m (from 2018 profit of 1.98m, increase in cost base due to ramp-up of Arriva Click, but increase in net assets more than covers it)
Midlands: Profit 330k (negligible increase of 40k, increased revenue from decreased competition, operational cost reduction)
Yorkshire Tiger: Profit 142k (up from loss of 562k, lower cost of operations)

As per the above, these can be searched from the weblink in the quote (as a single link would be multiple lines long), and the source is the same in each case. It's also worth pointing out these are all for the financial year ending 31/12/19, thus before anything Covid. I should also point out these are the before tax figures (the post-tax figures are a few pages further down).
Unless I'm missing anything, Kent & Surrey and Midlands North are the only divisions still outstanding, plus Bus & Coach (the dealership arm, I think, as it started as Hughes DAF).

Further accounts posted on 10th July - the final set to be posted are those for Kent & Surrey, which show as filed on 12th July and currently being processed by Companies House. As with the previous postings, all are taken from the "Review of Business" on page 4 of the accounts accessible from here https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/, as a direct quote to each document would be multiple lines long.

Midlands North: Loss 5.3m (down from loss of 3.5m, trading conditions with an increase in competitive markets)
Bus & Coach: Loss 11m (down from 2.85m, impairment charges on goodwill and tangible fixed assets linked to decision to cease trading, in addition to market conditions in 2019)

As always, those with a greater knowledge of reading accounts than I do will be able to look into the fine print (especially with regard to Bus & Coach), but those are the headline figures.

 

[cnjb8]

Further accounts posted on 10th July - the final set to be posted are those for Kent & Surrey, which show as filed on 12th July and currently being processed by Companies House. As with the previous postings, all are taken from the "Review of Business" on page 4 of the accounts accessible from here https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/, as a direct quote to each document would be multiple lines long.

Midlands North: Loss 5.3m (down from loss of 3.5m, trading conditions with an increase in competitive markets)
Bus & Coach: Loss 11m (down from 2.85m, impairment charges on goodwill and tangible fixed assets linked to decision to cease trading, in addition to market conditions in 2019)

As always, those with a greater knowledge of reading accounts than I do will be able to look into the fine print (especially with regard to Bus & Coach), but those are the headline figures.

It’s hard to know what Arriva Midlands North is now, Arriva has changed it several times in the past year to include the Shires and then taking Luton from it but not yet, either way I’m very confused

 

[SeveerYeliab]

Arriva Kent and Surrey have posted a loss of £8,249,000 (2018: £2,802,000).

 

[Blindtraveler]

Working on the basis that these losses continued it's no wonder the Kent operation in particular is on a severe operational diet

 

[markymark2000]

Baffling how you can report such losses but then keep running. We all know how quick Arriva are to drop routes so it can't be the actual day to day ops. It has to be some some accounting measure to try and make it all look worse than it is like Amazon do. Report losses because the umbrella company charges a lot of money to the local companies. Avoids paying tax and hides the true profits and justify low investment. Either that or they have a really dodgy contract which is rinsing them. I do not for a minute believe that Arriva is losing this much money given the amount of services which it is running. If you lost this much money, you would cut the routes. Let's be honest.

 

[Robertj21a]

Baffling how you can report such losses but then keep running. We all know how quick Arriva are to drop routes so it can't be the actual day to day ops. It has to be some some accounting measure to try and make it all look worse than it is like Amazon do. Report losses because the umbrella company charges a lot of money to the local companies. Avoids paying tax and hides the true profits and justify low investment. Either that or they have a really dodgy contract which is rinsing them. I do not for a minute believe that Arriva is losing this much money given the amount of services which it is running. If you lost this much money, you would cut the routes. Let's be honest.

Has nobody bothered looking at the Accounts in any detail?

 

[AndrewP]

I am not saying this with specific regard to Arriva but I would be very careful about any accounts produced at the moment as many organisations will be using the opportunity to do a bit of 'kitchen sinking' i.e. throwing anything negative into them they can when the world is conditioned for bad news and wont be as bothered as they would be in normal times thereby making it easier to look good in the future.

On a separate point, here in the north east they are running busses on 02 and 51 plates which must need replacement soon!

 

[Surreyman]

Might be a some Euro 6 retrofit buses available from London soon!

 

[RELL6L]

The horrendous loss for Kent and Surrey includes a one-off impairment charge of £4,166,000 relating to property and plant, but not PSVs (note 12 to the accounts). So the underlying loss is about £4m not £8m. Income flat, costs up. Note 24 goes on to say there may be another impairment charge in the 2020 accounts! Also these accounts are filed over 6 months late (as I assume the other group companies are), which is never a good sign. Possibly a difficulty in persuading the auditors the company was a 'going concern', indeed reading the 'material uncertainty' paragraph on page 9 I think they didn't as DB has not committed a credit facility for a specific period.

 

[duncombec]

Arriva Kent and Surrey have posted a loss of £8,249,000 (2018: £2,802,000).

"challenging market conditions with little growth of revenue together with an increase in salary and driver training for drivers recruitment due to a shortage of staff".

Baffling how you can report such losses but then keep running. We all know how quick Arriva are to drop routes so it can't be the actual day to day ops. It has to be some some accounting measure to try and make it all look worse than it is like Amazon do. Report losses because the umbrella company charges a lot of money to the local companies. Avoids paying tax and hides the true profits and justify low investment. Either that or they have a really dodgy contract which is rinsing them. I do not for a minute believe that Arriva is losing this much money given the amount of services which it is running. If you lost this much money, you would cut the routes. Let's be honest.

The post-tax loss was still £7.19m (2018: £2.32m), so they haven't gained anything other than less loss. It isn't as though some creative accounting has been used to turn a minor profit into a loss to avoid tax. The cost to Arriva Kent & Surrey (K&S) for use of the brand name is £1.14 million, so not that either. Arriva K&S have very few contracts likely to be "rinsing" them... in fact, turnover declined by £15k between the two years, so almost equal.

Has nobody bothered looking at the Accounts in any detail?

I've said in each message that others with greater knowledge of accounts will need to pick up where it is likely to come from - I can only throw numbers with a big change from last year and hope that's the cause.
(Edit: RELL6L posted whilst I was typing... that might be a good cause!)

 

[Surreyman]

The horrendous loss for Kent and Surrey includes a one-off impairment charge of £4,166,000 relating to property and plant, but not PSVs (note 12 to the accounts). So the underlying loss is about £4m not £8m. Income flat, costs up. Note 24 goes on to say there may be another impairment charge in the 2020 accounts! Also these accounts are filed over 6 months late (as I assume the other group companies are), which is never a good sign. Possibly a difficulty in persuading the auditors the company was a 'going concern', indeed reading the 'material uncertainty' paragraph on page 9 I think they didn't as DB has not committed a credit facility for a specific period.

I'm not an accountant but I wonder if that one-off property charge is a re-evaluation of K & Ss property portfolio and subsequent reduction in value?
As has been hinted, Covid is a good time to do this in accountancy terms.
Excluding the 'Impairment' charge that's still a huge loss, even First South Yorkshire 'only' lost £3.2m in a roughly comparable time period.

 

[markymark2000]

The post-tax loss was still £7.19m (2018: £2.32m), so they haven't gained anything other than less loss. It isn't as though some creative accounting has been used to turn a minor profit into a loss to avoid tax. The cost to Arriva Kent & Surrey (K&S) for use of the brand name is £1.14 million, so not that either. Arriva K&S have very few contracts likely to be "rinsing" them... in fact, turnover declined by £15k between the two years, so almost equal.

There is a huge cost though of £1.14m for the brand name. That won't help things in most of the cases where losses are reported.
When I say about contracts, I don't specifically mean route contracts but maintenance or fuel contracts. If they are paying over the odds for certain things, that will rinse them but it's depot costs, not day to day operational costs.

I know myself how good Arriva is at killing routes to push the profits and if a route isn't making money, they cut it so it can't be the routes, it has to be other costs. Perhaps overpaid management who seem to do absolutely sod all since they don't reply to emails and nor are they present in depots. Just sit in the dedicated offices hiding away from everyone.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm not an accountant but I wonder if that one-off property charge is a re-evaluation of K & Ss property portfolio and subsequent reduction in value?
As has been hinted, Covid is a good time to do this in accountancy terms.
Excluding the 'Impairment' charge that's still a huge loss, even First South Yorkshire 'only' lost £3.2m in a roughly comparable time period.

But at least FSY also had fresh new management.

 

[overthewater]

Where is the Grant money from Central Government gone? They said they were going to support them?

 

[RELL6L]

Where is the Grant money from Central Government gone? They said they were going to support them?

These are accounts for 2019 - the 'good times' pre-Covid. Grant money would only have come in from 2020.