Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[Geordie driver]

To be fair, the future of Jesmond depot and cashing in on that site has been a subject for discussion for the last 30 years. I'd suggest that Walkergate will be an almost straight replacement for Jesmond. To be fair to Arriva, it's a lucrative asset that is now quite under-utilised so it does make sense and attracts some very chunky business rates; mind you, that's also because Arriva have managed to shrink the operation over the years so it's only about 60-65 vehicles.

Wouldn't be surprised if Arriva banged a few more into Ashington depot; again, it was suggested that the plan always was for that depot to replace Ashington and enable Blyth to be closed at some point. Don't know how true that was.

Sad to say that if/when Blyth and Jesmond go, there will be only one former United depot still in use.

Some staff and buses are definitely going to Blyth, I have just spoken to my mate who is going there.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Some staff and buses are definitely going to Blyth, I have just spoken to my mate who is going there.

I don't doubt that.

Just that it was always suggested that the plan was that Blyth would go with the town centre redevelopment, whenever that may be. Not at this time.

Would be interesting to know the fleet size between the three depots now, compared to when Arriva was formed. Seem to recall they had probably c.100 at Jesmond with NatEx coaches and a very substantial school bus operation that was parked in the yard outside.

 

[Geordie driver]

I don't doubt that.

Just that it was always suggested that the plan was that Blyth would go with the town centre redevelopment, whenever that may be. Not at this time.

Would be interesting to know the fleet size between the three depots now, compared to when Arriva was formed. Seem to recall they had probably c.100 at Jesmond with NatEx coaches and a very substantial school bus operation that was parked in the yard outside.

I have been looking at the plans for Blyth, new hotel on the site of the bus station, on the very rough map I found the depot still appears to be there. Local gossip ( and you know how drivers like to gossip!) is they looked at a piece of land next to the depot to expand on and discovered they already own it and have decided to expand on there.

I assume Walkergate will do the main Newcastle services, 44/45/46, there will be others I am unaware of, and Blyth will do the 306 and possibly the 43.

There is plenty of land in south east Northumberland anyway, I always thought a big depot on Cramlington industrial estate made sense.

Regarding the substantial schools operation out of Jesmond, and one point it was a 26 line rota, schools and works on split shifts, all Monday to Friday, so 26 buses every day plus a 2 line rota for Northumbria university to Longhurst. This would be about 1994. Some of the starts were 04 30, long days on split shifts.

It was obvious that smaller operators had lower costs and we would lose the work eventually, I could see the writing on the wall and returning to normal service work wasn't for me, so I left. We were down to about 12 lines of work by then.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I have been looking at the plans for Blyth, new hotel on the site of the bus station, on the very rough map I found the depot still appears to be there. Local gossip ( and you know how drivers like to gossip!) is they looked at a piece of land next to the depot to expand on and discovered they already own it and have decided to expand on there.

I assume Walkergate will do the main Newcastle services, 44/45/46, there will be others I am unaware of, and Blyth will do the 306 and possibly the 43.

There is plenty of land in south east Northumberland anyway, I always thought a big depot on Cramlington industrial estate made sense.

Regarding the substantial schools operation out of Jesmond, and one point it was a 26 line rota, schools and works on split shifts, all Monday to Friday, so 26 buses every day plus a 2 line rota for Northumbria university to Longhurst. This would be about 1994. Some of the starts were 04 30, long days on split shifts.

It was obvious that smaller operators had lower costs and we would lose the work eventually, I could see the writing on the wall and returning to normal service work wasn't for me, so I left. We were down to about 12 lines of work by then.

I know, in the past, the future of the bus depot and the redevelopment has been mentioned https://www.blythtowncouncil.org.uk/widescope/resources/btc-report-final-27-12-13.pdf

C1, the Bus Depot site, is of most potential interest, but is in abeyance until such time, if ever, there is a viable proposal to relocate the bus depot. The site remains of strategic importance within the town centre, allowing for a possible expansion of the retail offer (and offices) as well as providing an active linkage between the Primary Shopping Area and the Blyth Town Centre: Planning Prospects and Provisions ~ December 2013 Page 20 of 34 Quayside Area.

Of course, there's a long way between that and things ever happening; Jesmond's closure and redevelopment was being talked about in Proudmutual days! However, it's been mooted at various times about the redevelopment of Blyth (not many town centre bus depots these days nor company-owned bus stations) and yes, a single SE Northumberland depot. FWIW, Arriva has pursued a policy of closing and amalgamating depots in the North East and it's been pretty ruinous.

 

[Surreyman]

I know, in the past, the future of the bus depot and the redevelopment has been mentioned https://www.blythtowncouncil.org.uk/widescope/resources/btc-report-final-27-12-13.pdf



Of course, there's a long way between that and things ever happening; Jesmond's closure and redevelopment was being talked about in Proudmutual days! However, it's been mooted at various times about the redevelopment of Blyth (not many town centre bus depots these days nor company-owned bus stations) and yes, a single SE Northumberland depot. FWIW, Arriva has pursued a policy of closing and amalgamating depots in the North East and it's been pretty ruinous.

Arriva UK Bus seem to be 'downsizing' operations across the Uk in recent times, almost by stealth - North Wales, Cannock, Leicester, Guildford etc, maybe to eliminate areas of low profitability/loss making, perhaps in some instances, realising the value of suitable 'real estate.'
Is Sunderland H/O looking to make UK-Bus as lean 'n mean as possible, prior to eventual sale by DB group?
Are some of the property sales to realise cash for injection into defined Benefit Pension funds which Arriva will probably have to retain if they sell the business?

 

[Simon75]

If Jesmond is grade 2 listed, then what other use could it be?

Apart from Blyth, Jesmond what other ex United Automobile depots still in use ?

 

[markymark2000]

Arriva UK Bus seem to be 'downsizing' operations across the Uk in recent times, almost by stealth - North Wales, Cannock, Leicester, Guildford etc, maybe to eliminate areas of low profitability/loss making, perhaps in some instances, realising the value of suitable 'real estate.'
Is Sunderland H/O looking to make UK-Bus as lean 'n mean as possible, prior to eventual sale by DB group?
Are some of the property sales to realise cash for injection into defined Benefit Pension funds which Arriva will probably have to retain if they sell the business?

I think it's a case that many depots have reduced their PVRs over time, what is the point in having 2 depot half full when you can fill one depot. As long as it makes sense do so with the additional dead mileage and pay, having a single depot has many benefits.


It also helps the other depots quite a bit due to Arrivas route profit system. More routes means more routes sharing the depot costs so all routes have their costs reduced giving more, profitable routes.

 

[Geordie driver]

If Jesmond is grade 2 listed, then what other use could it be?

Apart from Blyth, Jesmond what other ex United Automobile depots still in use ?

IIRC when it was built it was the biggest single span roof in Europe, it also has a magnificent frontage, I am not sure of the exact reasons for its listing.

Money talks, grade 2 doesn't mean much, I imagine they will keep the front and make it a feature of the new building, probably housing.

I started there in 1985 and they have spent nothing on it since then.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Arriva UK Bus seem to be 'downsizing' operations across the Uk in recent times, almost by stealth - North Wales, Cannock, Leicester, Guildford etc, maybe to eliminate areas of low profitability/loss making, perhaps in some instances, realising the value of suitable 'real estate.'
Is Sunderland H/O looking to make UK-Bus as lean 'n mean as possible, prior to eventual sale by DB group?
Are some of the property sales to realise cash for injection into defined Benefit Pension funds which Arriva will probably have to retain if they sell the business?

This is really no different from what has been going on for years, albeit compounded by Covid.

Arriva has a route viability system as described earlier on this thread IIRC. Services don't make the grade in terms of return, then they're cut and the fixed cost overhead recovery is loaded onto fewer routes. Part of the issue is that capital is in short supply with DB and so Arriva Bus UK is not only competing with various other Arriva bids across Europe but also with DB.

However, don't think that this pattern of asset sales etc is anything new. If you look at what Arriva has closed in the North East since its inception - two sets of operations (Hexham and Berwick) and TEN depots closed though three new depots were opened. On one day in Dec 2009, three depots alone were announced for closure, all to be amalgamated into other depots. That's one OpCo but not dissimilar in North Wales or Midlands. In fact, only Yorkshire and Merseyside have largely escaped.

The current closing and flogging is a reflection of Arriva's lack of investment, Covid and an ongoing downsizing of the business. It won't be the last - I could think of at least three other depots that I'd put money on going

If Jesmond is grade 2 listed, then what other use could it be?

Apart from Blyth, Jesmond what other ex United Automobile depots still in use ?

The Hexham depot is still in use by Go North East. In fact, thinking of it, Peterlee is still in use with a coach firm whose name escapes me

Other ones still standing (albeit in alternative uses) are Northallerton, Ripon, Scarborough, Pickering, Bishop Auckland (I think but derelict), Ferryhill, Sedgefield, Middlesbrough, Allenheads and Wooler; not certain about Loftus

I think it's a case that many depots have reduced their PVRs over time, what is the point in having 2 depot half full when you can fill one depot. As long as it makes sense do so with the additional dead mileage and pay, having a single depot has many benefits.


It also helps the other depots quite a bit due to Arrivas route profit system. More routes means more routes sharing the depot costs so all routes have their costs reduced giving more, profitable routes.

That's the theory but in truth, it's been devastating in terms of closing depots outright and then relying on dead mileage and complex interworking. Once the benefit of closing a depot had been realised then the next stage has been to see a general decline in performance and reliability, reducing patronage and so making services unviable, not helped in the early stages at first by having drivers unfamiliar with the local area. Two examples coming from the Dec 2009 North East depot rationalisation programme show this:

• Closure of Alnwick depot with ops to be run from Ashington. Arriva didn't appreciate that Alnwick drivers would simply take the redundancy and run (age demographic, travel to work for an hour etc) so they lost the local route knowledge AND it made for difficult driver changes/breaks in Newcastle or Alnwick. Even worse was they didn't realise that vehicles (that were topped up with fuel in Alnwick in evenings) didn't have the fuel tanks to manage a full days' work!!
• Closure of Bishop Auckland depot - one of the routes was the 69 (no sniggering at the back) that was Bishop Auckland to Sedgefield, having been shortened there from Stockton. Arriva decided that as it didn't need to run to Bishop anymore, it would run Sedgefield to Spennymoor but to operate it, it would interwork with the 55 Durham to Sedgefield that, in turn, interworked with another service (to Brancepeth? I forget). Suffice to say that it was so convoluted and unreliable, it was untenable and the 69 disappeared soon after.

Given that in 2009, the Durham, Bishop and Peterlee depots must have numbered c.160-170 vehicles (and that even if 20 of the vehicles would have gone from Bishop to Darlington at closure), that Belmont depot has an allocation of about 85 tells you something.

EDIT: for @Geordie driver - the reasons for listing are here https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1024795?section=official-listing

This integrated bus depot of 1930 to designs of Marshall & Tweedy of Newcastle and London, with later alterations, is listed at Grade II for the following principal reasons:

Architectural interest: * a rare and largely intact example of a purpose-built bus depot, which is one of few listed examples nationally; * designed by Marshall and Tweedy of Newcastle and London, a prominent and well-regarded practice who have several listed buildings to their name; * the original plan of the depot is retained and clearly legible comprising an L-shaped, top-lit, covered garage with attached office and service range; * the architectural quality of the striking main Doric elevation lifts the building well above the purely functional, underlined by the stylistically similar north vehicular entrance; * it has a high degree of survival, with later alterations that are relatively minor and do not impinge significantly on the clear special interest of the whole.

Historic interest: * as a relatively early purpose-built inter-war bus depot, designed by an accomplished architectural practice for a significant automobile company.

I don't know if it was listed but the former Arriva bus depot in Leicester was redeveloped with the BMMO Midland entrance retained but that was about it.

 

[TheSel]

New Streetlites finally entered service at Southport today. Three 'wheel forward' ones (6011/2/4) on 49 Crossens - Ainsdale, and two 'door forward' examples (6008/9) on 46 Russell Road - Carr Lane.


(Edited to add photos of doors-forward 6014 - SV71BGE on Lord Street West and wheel-forward 6009 - SV71BGU on Guildford Road taken this morning).

 

[Geordie driver]

Regarding Blyth, I have seen a planning notice for the demolition of some buildings next to the depot by Arriva, presumably to make space for the extra buses coming from Jesmond.

Apparently the Walkergate depot will mini buses only except for the 685. Again, just bus drivers gossip.

Edit, regarding Jesmond depot's listed status, money has a convenient way of making that status disappear.

 

[Blindtraveler]

What are arriva using on the 685 these days? I know stagecoach recently spent some money on the route but just wondered what the arriva situation was with vehicles

 

[alex397]

What are arriva using on the 685 these days? I know stagecoach recently spent some money on the route but just wondered what the arriva situation was with vehicles

Looking on bustimes.org, it is consistently run by the single decker VDL SB200 Wright Pulsar 2 type.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Thanks. These must be about due for an upgrade by now

 

[alex397]

Thanks. These must be about due for an upgrade by now

Indeed! Like many of the Arriva fleets it seems.

 

[hst43102]

I saw a brand new Streetdeck in Arriva livery in Newcastle heading towards Jesmond depot last week - the registration plates were covered but the fleetnumber was 47xx. It would appear to be from the Merseyside fleet - does anyone know why it was visiting the North East?

 

[TheSel]

I saw a brand new Streetdeck in Arriva livery in Newcastle heading towards Jesmond depot last week - the registration plates were covered but the fleetnumber was 47xx. It would appear to be from the Merseyside fleet - does anyone know why it was visiting the North East?

Well, I may be putting two and two together and making five, but I understand that some of Southport's VDL/Wright Pulsars (rumoured to be 3082-3088) are bound for Jesmond once the Streetlites are all in service here.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Maybe the streetdeck is a short term loan for evaluation purposes, or put another way, can it make it to Hexham or Carlyle without sitting down in the puff of smoke, and other things on the 685

 

[childwallblues]

I saw a brand new Streetdeck in Arriva livery in Newcastle heading towards Jesmond depot last week - the registration plates were covered but the fleetnumber was 47xx. It would appear to be from the Merseyside fleet - does anyone know why it was visiting the North East?

4713

 

[darloscott]

Maybe the streetdeck is a short term loan for evaluation purposes, or put another way, can it make it to Hexham or Carlyle without sitting down in the puff of smoke, and other things on the 685

Exactly that, but more geared towards Alnwick & Berwick I gather. Was based at Ashington for its short stay.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Do they currently use deckers on the A1? If not I would question the advisability of starting. The good burghers of said destinations and the intermediate points between would have had no bus service this morning during the storm and this would not be an uncommon occurrence sadly

 

[gka472l]

I saw a brand new Streetdeck in Arriva livery in Newcastle heading towards Jesmond depot last week - the registration plates were covered but the fleetnumber was 47xx. It would appear to be from the Merseyside fleet - does anyone know why it was visiting the North East?

It will have been 4713, there was a pic posted elsewhere of it in Ashington depot, however it's visit must have been very brief as I got a shot of it in service in Liverpool yesterday....

HTH

 

[darloscott]

Do they currently use deckers on the A1? If not I would question the advisability of starting. The good burghers of said destinations and the intermediate points between would have had no bus service this morning during the storm and this would not be an uncommon occurrence sadly

Yes both the X15 and X18 are generally in the hands of ADL Enviro 400s

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes both the X15 and X18 are generally in the hands of ADL Enviro 400s

Haven't those routes generally had double deckers for very many years?

 

[CBlue]

Do they currently use deckers on the A1? If not I would question the advisability of starting. The good burghers of said destinations and the intermediate points between would have had no bus service this morning during the storm and this would not be an uncommon occurrence sadly

Why? If the capacity is needed then 'deckers are a very sensible choice. Even in windy conditions, it has to get pretty bad before they become unstable enough to be dangerous....

Nothing stopping single decks substituting if the weather is considered unsuitable for double deck operation. Just about any competant operator will swap the bus duties so the 'deckers are confined to lower speed town routes where getting blown off the road is far less of a concern - and available single deckers rostered to replace them.

 

[duncombec]

Have noticed whilst looking for something else that the first batch of accounts for the year ending 31 December 2020 have started to appear on Companies House (the PDFs are too large, and not active, to link to directly, but they can be found by searching for the company at https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/. Like last year, I've taken the figures from the "Review of Business" section on page 4 of the respective PDFs, which is the amount before tax. The "government grants" figures seem to be the most likely way of working out any Coronavirus support, unless anyone more financially minded can correct me).

Durham County: Profit of £89,000 (2019: £1,836,000. Government grants of £11,664,000, 2019 £3,581,000).
Arriva London North: Loss of £2,509,000 (2019: Profit £5,562,000. Government grants of £4,015,000, 2019 £1,670,000)
Arriva London South: Profit of £5,146,000 (2019: £9,923,000. Government grants of £1,530,000, 2019 £759,000. Haven't read more closely to see why the discrepancy in the London companies)
Midlands: Loss of £881,000 (2019: Profit £330,000. Government grants of £13,379,000, 2019 £2,968,000)
Northumbria: Loss of £158,000 (2019: profit of £2,134,000. Government grants of £8,405,000, 2019 £2,333,000).

It almost goes without saying that the reasons for the changes are down to Covid, and in all cases are mitigated by Coronavirus Bus Service Support Grant and Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme payments.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Haven't those routes generally had double deckers for very many years?

Sorry - forgot to respond to this. The X18 (Newcastle to Alnwick) first got deckers in 1986 with half the boards being DD operated. By the early 1990s, I think all the X18 boards were deckers.

The 501 and 505 (which form the northern part of the current X18, and the X15) remained as single decks but were subsequently rerouted from the town gate so deckers could be used. They continued to be singles but with occasional deckers on there but with the increase of twirly passengers and a need to replace the aging coaches, they became decker routes from the mid 2000s.

 

[Robertj21a]

Sorry - forgot to respond to this. The X18 (Newcastle to Alnwick) first got deckers in 1986 with half the boards being DD operated. By the early 1990s, I think all the X18 boards were deckers.

The 501 and 505 (which form the northern part of the current X18, and the X15) remained as single decks but were subsequently rerouted from the town gate so deckers could be used. They continued to be singles but with occasional deckers on there but with the increase of twirly passengers and a need to replace the aging coaches, they became decker routes from the mid 2000s.

With some very comfortable Olympians.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

With some very comfortable Olympians.

Indeed they were. If you were unlucky, you could end up with a former Grey Green Scania - less comfortable

 

[Geordie driver]

Mayhem in Blyth this morning, electricity was off and they have no way of opening the depot doors without it. Services back to normal at 08 30!

Regarding the future of the depot, reading the councils blurb about creating an attractive gateway between the market and the quayside, I can't see how the depot could be part of that?!!

I bumped into one of my old supervisors the other day, he reckons Blyth will shut and a new depot at Cramlington open. Mind, he also thinks he is inline for a big redundancy package, so I am not quite sure of his grasp on reality.