Arriva Rail North DOO

[woodmally]

I hate the argument that if you're going to lose then why fight. It's standing up for what's right and it is about safety (unless they garentee a second safety critical member of staff on every train). Some people not working on the railway on here seem to get anoyed about our T&C's ect. Well the railway should be a role model to other industries e.g. aviation.

You have to always fight as even if it doesn't work it shows other TOCs that to expect if they by choice try to bring in DOO.
I live in Tory majority constituency and still vote Labour even though I know it will not change the result.

So let me get this straight you would be happy to continue striking even though there is no chance of success and effectively take a pay cut every month. That is complete an utter madness and also what about all the other people you work for many have family and finance commitments. You'd be happy for them to take a pay cut get themselves possibly into difficulty and debt and for what? nothing? I think you need to read up on King Canute or maybe the Charge of the Light Brigade. Your argument is precisely why I have an issue with the left wingers and momentum. Strike for the sake of striking.

 

[Dave1987]

So let me get this straight you would be happy to continue striking even though there is no chance of success and effectively take a pay cut every month. That is complete an utter madness and also what about all the other people you work for many have family and finance commitments. You'd be happy for them to take a pay cut get themselves possibly into difficulty and debt and for what? nothing? I think you need to read up on King Canute or maybe the Charge of the Light Brigade. Your argument is precisely why I have an issue with the left wingers and momentum. Strike for the sake of striking.

One thing the Rolls Royce job cuts thing has told me about the Government acceptance and almost praise of it is that workforces around the country need to stick together as the Government won’t give a damn if you are treated badly. Do what you need to do to get some job security or assurances. This is now a bloodthirsty economy. There is still strength in numbers. Never have I felt more before that May’s statement at the beginning of this Governments tenure that she would be a PM for everyone is such utter rubbish. More than ever people need to stick together to fight for decent pay and conditions. Otherwise business will walk all over you with Government blessings!

 

[B&I]

So let me get this straight you would be happy to continue striking even though there is no chance of success and effectively take a pay cut every month. That is complete an utter madness and also what about all the other people you work for many have family and finance commitments. You'd be happy for them to take a pay cut get themselves possibly into difficulty and debt and for what? nothing? I think you need to read up on King Canute or maybe the Charge of the Light Brigade. Your argument is precisely why I have an issue with the left wingers and momentum. Strike for the sake of striking.

Out of interest, whom do you vote for, and do you actually support their policies, or do you vote for them as a protest against another party you like less ?

 

[B&I]

From the point of view of technology and progress there are many jobs in many industries which have disappeared or changed over the years, yet certain aspects of the rail industry are immune to this it would seem.

What technology has been implemented so far by Northern which will.make it safer not to have guards on trains ?

 

[B&I]

I'd fully expect a dispute if that was proposed as a new uniform for a future franchise, which is why I used it as an example. However, using the logic of @B&I you should have a uniform dispute now unless you have a guarantee in place that the uniforms used by future franchise will be reasonable.

No it isn't, because anyone who is not attempting a reductio ad absurdum argument would recommend the difference between giving up features of your job which will secure it in future, and arguing over a prospective future uniform change

 

[B&I]

Incorrect. The main argument is that a guarantee of work on the same pay grade for a minimum of 9 years is long term job security. Even if the next Northern franchise get rid of guards altogether they are likely to prefer to find alternative employment for guards for the reasons @Moonshot has given.

I still don't get it. You are asking the guards to give up their attempts to secure permanent job security by ensuring that trains will continue to need guards in order to run, in exchange for job guarantees for the remainder of this franchise, whatever that might be. Can you not see why they might choose the former coueaw of action ?

I doubt that very much. Remember the anti-privatisation national strikes in the 90s?

No I don't, which I think rather proves my point about impact of strike action on passenger perceptions, as opposed to impact of TOC inability to organise piddle-up in brewery on same.

 

[B&I]

Been there, done that. Good experience as it encourages you to look at fresh ideas, training and/or new adventures. I'd never encourage anybody to stay stuck in a rut in any job if they believe that they have sufficient ability to pursue other avenues.

Right, so you do think that losing your employment is a positive experience. It may come as a surprise to you, but the vast majority of people do not, which is why most people don't resign every week. But I suppose your outlook on this issue, unusual aa it is, does explain your views on other people's job security

 

[B&I]

Right thank you once again for making a very valid point "The English government wont hold out forever". That's what I suspected all along that RMT are waiting for a Corbyn government to take charge. And your right if that does happen then the guard will be retained. However lets look a this two ways. Firstly whats the point in striking now when there is no way of changing the Tory governments mind and Northern cannot back down. That's not going to change the government is it. All that will happen if a change of government does not happen is the guards will have lost money. Secondly if there is a Corbyn government (then the RMT just need to have a meeting with Corbyn and the new transport secretary and the guard is retained. So either there is no need for strike action or it wont work. Either way no point in striking as they are not getting anywhere other than a lower wage packet. Scotland and Wales succeeded as its a different set up. It wont work here so why strike.

Although you seem to think that the election of a Corbyn government will lead to the conversion of Britain into a East Germany with smartphones, I suspect that any Labour government which is elected will be terrified of spending money outside the most obviously vote-winning areas. If guards have been abolished by the time Labour get in again, I cannot see a labour transport sec rushing to reinstate them.

 

[northwichcat]

No it isn't, because anyone who is not attempting a reductio ad absurdum argument would recommend the difference between giving up features of your job which will secure it in future, and arguing over a prospective future uniform change

It's good that you see that argument as absurd, it was supposed to be to highlight how absurd some of the arguments were making are.

I still don't get it. You are asking the guards to give up their attempts to secure permanent job security by ensuring that trains will continue to need guards in order to run, in exchange for job guarantees for the remainder of this franchise, whatever that might be. Can you not see why they might choose the former coueaw of action ?

Permanent employment? That's impossible. The government could give a guarantee that every mainline train will have a guard but that guarantee could become invalid as soon as at the next general election. Even if the guarantee remained in place the number of guards would be proportional to the number of services so more services introduced would mean more guards but crucially services being axed could mean guards are made redundant, despite a guarantee of a guard on every train. Railway workers have been lucky that passenger numbers have been increasing and they've escaped redundancies due to decreased demand which has been seen across many industries over the past 10 years.

You need to remember at the December 2019 timetable change the majority of the Northern fleet will still consist of Sprinters - Sprinters which need a guard on every service, they'll also be 170s and EMUs in the fleet which will need a guard on every service. When the current franchise ends the majority of the trains in the fleet will still need guards and the next franchise holder won't be able to replace trains overnight. While the plan is for 195s and 331s to run without guards they'll be used on semi-fast services (which will cover a high mileage in a short amount of time) and they'll be a lot of additional services introduced. It's also claimed Northern have a high staff turnover level due to them paying lower salaries than other TOCs. So I fail to see how there is currently a serious risk to the Northern guards.

No I don't, which I think rather proves my point about impact of strike action on passenger perceptions, as opposed to impact of TOC inability to organise piddle-up in brewery on same.

No it doesn't. That proves however bad the service is for whatever reason people eventually forget about it. First North Western were just as bad as Northern are currently but because they've done a reasonable job with TPE (other than solving overcrowding) people forget how bad First North Western were. People (like yourself) forgot about industrial action in the 1990s because Northern employees had it good for a number of years and only had 48 hours of industrial action during the entire last Northern franchise and that was over the wording of the Bank Holiday section in their contracts - the union thought because 25th Dec was on a Sat and 26th Dec was on a Sun that they were entitled to the lieu Bank Holidays as well but Northern didn't. Hardly a massive issue in comparison to what others dealt with during the recession.

 

[Bletchleyite]

First North Western were just as bad as Northern are currently

They (not by then owned by First) had a bad patch when the 1998 service increases were put in without enough stock/staff, but it was nowhere *near* as bad as now. You have whatever the opposite of rose tinted spectacles is!

Early-2000s FNW was basic but reasonably reliable and punctual, not much different to latter day BR really, and there were the 175s.

 

[northwichcat]

They (not by then owned by First) had a bad patch when the 1998 service increases were put in without enough stock/staff, but it was nowhere *near* as bad as now. You have whatever the opposite of rose tinted spectacles is!

Early-2000s FNW was basic but reasonably reliable and punctual, not much different to latter day BR really, and there were the 175s.

FNW's PPM once went as low as 45% on some routes. They had major problems when platform availability at Piccadilly was reduced for all the modernising work that was undertaken.

They also had problems with ASLEF and a rest day agreement in 2002 which saw an emergency timetable for months. It didn't see one branch line lose all its' services but most lines lost peak time extras, some middle of the day services and some late trains.

 

[Moonshot]

What about the fact that business say they struggle to recruit people with the correct skills for what they need? What about those that would struggle to find employment paying anything other than pitiful wages? You wonder why people are extremely nervous about job security!

Those that earn pitiful wages deserve exactly what they get......and people on low wages are generally low skilled and poorly educated. If they want to better themselves, then the only way they can do that is by their own efforts.

 

[northwichcat]

Those that earn pitiful wages deserve exactly what they get......and people on low wages are generally low skilled and poorly educated. If they want to better themselves, then the only way they can do that is by their own efforts.

You could be on low wages because there's 100 highly qualified people applying for every vacancy and the only way to put yourself ahead of them is to have a lower salary expectation. A low paid job is better than no job.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FNW's PPM once went as low as 45% on some routes. They had major problems when platform availability at Piccadilly was reduced for all the modernising work that was undertaken.

They also had problems with ASLEF and a rest day agreement in 2002 which saw an emergency timetable for months. It didn't see one branch line lose all its' services but most lines lost peak time extras, some middle of the day services and some late trains.

Was that 45% the gauge-corner cracking incident? All TOCs were hit by that.

But I used FNW near enough throughout its tenure and it was never as bad as this debacle.

 

[Moonshot]

You could be on low wages because there's 100 highly qualified people applying for every vacancy and the only way to put yourself ahead of them is to have a lower salary expectation. A low paid job is better than no job.

Just like the 100s applying for train driving jobs. Im afraid your argument doesnt quite hold water when you consider the unemployment rate is low compared to previous.

 

[northwichcat]

Was that 45% the gauge-corner cracking incident? All TOCs were hit by that.

No it related to the rolling stock shortages you mentioned and the Piccadilly refurbishment I mentioned. Their solution was to make some stations request stops to reduce the end to end timings of services and consequently require 1 diagram less to run the service on a particular route.

 

[Moonshot]

I started off on a YTS scheme after I flunked my O levels.....all my own fault. I dont drive trains......but I will repeat, and that is everyone has the power to do better for themselves provided they apply themselves. If they dont, its nobodies fault but their own....

 

[northwichcat]

Just like the 100s applying for train driving jobs. Im afraid your argument doesnt quite hold water when you consider the unemployment rate is low compared to previous.

You're saying if Northern advertise a Manchester Victoria train driver vacancy they get hundreds of applications from people who can already drive both Pacers and Sprinters? If not you're talking about something different. I'm talking about people who can walk in and start doing the job without any training at all.

 

[Moonshot]

You're saying if Northern advertise a Manchester Victoria train driver vacancy they get hundreds of applications from people who can already drive both Pacers and Sprinters? If not you're talking about something different. I'm talking about people who can walk in and start doing the job without any training at all.

In which case, Virgin get loads of applications from qualified train drivers, but it hasnt dampened salaries.

 

[northwichcat]

In which case, Virgin get loads of applications from qualified train drivers, but it hasnt dampened salaries.

As mentioned multiple times in this thread the unions would kick off if a TOC didn't pay all drivers the same and all guards the same. An advantage if there's lots of fully qualified people applying for the job, a disadvantage if you've got some lazy colleagues and they get the same pay rise as you do.

 

[Dave1987]

Those that earn pitiful wages deserve exactly what they get......and people on low wages are generally low skilled and poorly educated. If they want to better themselves, then the only way they can do that is by their own efforts.

Sorry but many people simply can’t afford the training courses to better themselves. That is complete rubbish. I’ve known people who wanted to better themselves with new skills but cannot afford the cost of the course to do so, and Government refuse to help.

 

[Dave1987]

You could be on low wages because there's 100 highly qualified people applying for every vacancy and the only way to put yourself ahead of them is to have a lower salary expectation. A low paid job is better than no job.

And that is the exact kind of thinking as to why wages are so low in this country!

 

[Moonshot]

Sorry but many people simply can’t afford the training courses to better themselves. That is complete rubbish. I’ve known people who wanted to better themselves with new skills but cannot afford the cost of the course to do so, and Government refuse to help.

Education starts at school....which is free. Anyone who doesn't make the most of that will fail to achieve anything later in life.

 

[Moonshot]

And that is the exact kind of thinking as to why wages are so low in this country!

You would have to wonder why a minimum wage was introduced.

 

[northwichcat]

Education starts at school....which is free. Anyone who doesn't make the most of that will fail to achieve anything later in life.

Yet the standard of education you get depends where you live and which school you go to. Independent schools (which aren't free) often offer the highest quality of education and schools which are free vary considerably in quality. While, unless you attend the closest school with a place you aren't entitled to help with any travel costs for getting to and from school.

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry but many people simply can’t afford the training courses to better themselves. That is complete rubbish. I’ve known people who wanted to better themselves with new skills but cannot afford the cost of the course to do so, and Government refuse to help.

Depends what course you need to better your skills. Some are available free, others aren't. If you want to do free courses in your spare time: https://www.vision2learn.net/courses and while Coursera is no longer completely free, they make exceptions for those who can't afford to take a course they need to better their career prospects through a financial aid scheme.

 

[B&I]

No it doesn't. That proves however bad the service is for whatever reason people eventually forget about it. First North Western were just as bad as Northern are currently but because they've done a reasonable job with TPE (other than solving overcrowding) people forget how bad First North Western were. People (like yourself) forgot about industrial action in the 1990s because Northern employees had it good for a number of years and only had 48 hours of industrial action during the entire last Northern franchise and that was over the wording of the Bank Holiday section in their contracts - the union thought because 25th Dec was on a Sat and 26th Dec was on a Sun that they were entitled to the lieu Bank Holidays as well but Northern didn't. Hardly a massive issue in comparison to what others dealt with during the recession.

This is getting bizarre. In response to my suggestion that Northern Rail had done more in a few weeks to drive away passengers than the unions have done in 60 years, you have to reach back almost 25 years to find evidence of a strike lasting more than 48 hours, and then you raise how bad First Northwestern (not a union) was at running the service. What exact point are you trying to make ?

 

[Dave1987]

Depends what course you need to better your skills. Some are available free, others aren't. If you want to do free courses in your spare time: https://www.vision2learn.net/courses and while Coursera is no longer completely free, they make exceptions for those who can't afford to take a course they need to better their career prospects through a financial aid scheme.

That’s interesting. A friend of mine who’s position was “under review” was looking at a local college to get some more skills and was quoted in the thousands for a course and was told there was no Government help. The only way for them to get any kind of training to upskill them self was to go to the Open University via a student loan or wait until they became unemployed. They got the distinct impression that because they weren’t yet a burden on the DWP and were still employed in some capacity that was fine. It’s utter madness that people in this country aren’t helped and encouraged to up skill themselves. Education should not be a business it should be freely available to all who want it. Why do you think people are scared to lose their jobs and are willing to fight to keep them. If you embolden people to improve themselves and their career prospects most will grasp those opportunities. If you use education as a business to make money people will probably not be able afford to do it.

 

[northwichcat]

This is getting bizarre. In response to my suggestion that Northern Rail had done more in a few weeks to drive away passengers than the unions have done in 60 years, you have to reach back almost 25 years to find evidence of a strike lasting more than 48 hours, and then you raise how bad First Northwestern (not a union) was at running the service. What exact point are you trying to make ?

What are you going on about? I referred to a 48 hour strike under Serco/Abellio Northern in 2010. I don't remember it was 2010 but a quick check shows that's the year when 25th Dec fell on a Saturday and 26th on a Sunday, it was also the year before the William-Kate Royal Wedding and I recall when that dispute was being discussed the mention of an additional Bank Holiday the following year came up as well. Strikes were commonplace under both First North Western and Arriva Trains Northern, I don't recall the dates of each one or how long each one lasted but I can remember journeys I made in 2002 being affected by them. There were also strikes under BR prior to privatisation, again I don't remember how long each one lasted and why does that matter? Northern guards are striking for 72 hours this week, to a lot of passengers it causes as much inconvenience to strike on 3 different days in the same week as to start a 72 hour strike starting on Thursday at 00:01.

The point I was making was the strikes damaged the railway's reputation, as did First North Western and Arriva Trains Northern's reliability and punctuality but only having one 48 hour strike between late 2004 and early 2016 and old Northern having a reasonable overall reliability and punctuality record helped restore the railway's reputation. People forget about disruption which happened a long time ago, whether it's due to industrial action from unions or due to a poorly managed train operator.

 

[northwichcat]

That’s interesting. A friend of mine who’s position was “under review” was looking at a local college to get some more skills and was quoted in the thousands for a course and was told there was no Government help.

My guess is the local college only mentioned what they could offer.

They got the distinct impression that because they weren’t yet a burden on the DWP and were still employed in some capacity that was fine. It’s utter madness that people in this country aren’t helped and encouraged to up skill themselves.

I think an underlying problem is there's certain training and courses which employers should pay for and if employees can get it free then employers won't bother paying for it and then that could be a burden on the state.