Arriva Rail North DOO

[Carlisle]

The 15x units were fitted with door controls (with the exception of the 158/9's) in the cabs but aren't used. They can't run DOO and neither can 319's up here

BR decided all units built from around 1976 onwards (313/140 and beyond) had to be suitable for DOO therefore all had drivers door controls fitted from new but as you say many have since been disconnected or plated over

 

[HLE]

The drivers and guards in northern have a much stronger bargaining power than their southern colleagues. The drivers already worked some routes DOO, whereas there is none of that on Northern.

Yes we all understand the money issue but these one day strikes aren't much use. The government is prepared for it and let's be honest - who's going to remember the odd strike day in 5 years time?

What the situation on Southern has shown is that a much longer strike period is needed. The whole railway up north needs to grind to a halt for a while before the government will be forced to take action.

Both unions should call a long strike (1 week +) to really cause some aggravation.

One day strikes are pointless. Managers cover some of the routes - but they can't do that for long.

 

[Carlisle]

The drivers and guards in northern have a much stronger bargaining power than their southern colleagues. The drivers already worked some routes DOO, whereas there is none of that on Northern.

Yes we all understand the money issue but these one day strikes aren't much use. The government is prepared for it and let's be honest - who's going to remember the odd strike day in 5 years time?

What the situation on Southern has shown is that a much longer strike period is needed. The whole railway up north needs to grind to a halt for a while before the government will be forced to take action.

Both unions should call a long strike (1 week +) to really cause some aggravation.

One day strikes are pointless. Managers cover some of the routes - but they can't do that for long.

The recent indefinite Bus Eireann strike in Ireland was a pretty similar tactic to what your suggesting for northern ,it lasted 3-4 weeks, did it achieve most of the desired results for the employees in dispute ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Both unions should call a long strike (1 week +) to really cause some aggravation.

How about the week that leads up to the General Election....

 

[driver_m]

Would it be a valid redundancy case? Northern need DOO drivers, so they recruit and train them. They then make an equal number of drivers who will not drive DOO redundant, as non-DOO drivers are required in smaller numbers than before.

To me the role is different enough.

We might end up with a sham role like OBS, to be quietly done away with at franchise change, but I am certain that the drivers will be operating the doors on the services the Government wants.

That makes a huge assumption that drivers will be bought off. The mood in the industry has changed. The recent spate of prosecutions have ensured that we won't be bought off in order to bring in DOO. You'd have to get rid of everyone and train a load of new drivers who would have to be non unionised and then route and traction train them. Good luck with that. No company has yet tested the drivers at a TOC that has no DOO.

There are too many hypothetical points being made on here. You will have to drag drivers kicking and screaming to get DOO in. I just do not think it will happen.

 

[HLE]

Stand firm against it, all strike together and in the meantime, if you can, save up!

 

[Moonshot]

Stand firm against it, all strike together and in the meantime, if you can, save up!

What advice would you have given to the average miner prior to the strike in the early 80s?

 

[Moonshot]

How about the week that leads up to the General Election....

Are you suggesting that the current round of strike action is motivated by RMT leadership political ambitions Paul?? Your a very naughty boy if so

 

[driver_m]

What advice would you have given to the average miner prior to the strike in the early 80s?

Beg, borrow or steal any camcorders that you could get your hands on. Particular in the orgreave area.

 

[kw12]

The recent indefinite Bus Eireann strike in Ireland was a pretty similar tactic to what your suggesting for northern ,it lasted 3-4 weeks, did it achieve most of the desired results for the employees in dispute ?

I'm don't know whether or not it was most (perhaps you can enlighten us), but it was enough for the unions to suspend their strike and ballot their members on the latest proposals, which their members may or may not accept.

In contrast, on Southern RMT members have taken more days of strike action than the Bus Eireann unions, but without an indefinite strike, and the union has so far not obtained any offer that it is prepared to put to its members.

It looks like the RMT is taking the same approach with Arriva Trains North, even though this approach has not been successful for them with Southern. Perhaps an indefinite strike as on Bus Eireann would be more successful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What advice would you have given to the average miner prior to the strike in the early 80s?

Or the Liverpool dockers in the 1990s? I fear the DOO thing may end up looking rather like that in the end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It looks like the RMT is taking the same approach with Arriva Trains North, even though this approach has not been successful for them with Southern. Perhaps an indefinite strike as on Bus Eireann would be more successful.

An "all out" strike, i.e. tools down until resolved, no doubt would at least get more attention[1], but the problem with that is that it is hugely costly for the staff, and most wouldn't be able to afford the loss of that much pay. That kind of industrial action belongs in the 1970s, really, where I suspect it will stay.

[1] I still think DOO will happen regardless, as what Government wants Government gets. A lone TOC wanting DOO would have given in by now - as I said that's why no TOC has ever attempted to introduce it commercially off its own back.

 

[mtbox]

That makes a huge assumption that drivers will be bought off. The mood in the industry has changed. The recent spate of prosecutions have ensured that we won't be bought off in order to bring in DOO. You'd have to get rid of everyone and train a load of new drivers who would have to be non unionised and then route and traction train them. Good luck with that. No company has yet tested the drivers at a TOC that has no DOO.

There are too many hypothetical points being made on here. You will have to drag drivers kicking and screaming to get DOO in. I just do not think it will happen.

I think it's about time ASLEF showed their hand in this dispute. I know for a fact there are quite a few Northern ASLEF drivers wondering why (seemingly) nothing is happening, after all it's in the ASLEF charter - "No more DOO".

 

[philthetube]

Comments made concerning the liverpool dockers and the miners are not really relevant, they were both industries the government were happy to see closed, they did not care how long the strikes continued. that is not the situation with the railways.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Comments made concerning the liverpool dockers and the miners are not really relevant, they were both industries the government were happy to see closed, they did not care how long the strikes continued. that is not the situation with the railways.

The docks, of course, did not close. The dockers were sacked, and new ones recruited.

If this goes on too long, I can genuinely see that happening, and that would be bad for everyone.

But there will still be DOO.

 

[Moonshot]

The docks, of course, did not close. The dockers were sacked, and new ones recruited.

If this goes on too long, I can genuinely see that happening, and that would be bad for everyone.

But there will still be DOO.

There will be 50% DOO on an increased number of services anyway. IMO nobody will actually lose their jobs, there may well be a voluntary severance package at some point in a few years which may well be very beneficial to guards who are near to retirement anyway.

 

[HH]

I think it's about time ASLEF showed their hand in this dispute. I know for a fact there are quite a few Northern ASLEF drivers wondering why (seemingly) nothing is happening, after all it's in the ASLEF charter - "No more DOO".

I imagine they're awaiting to see what the GE brings...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I imagine they're awaiting to see what the GE brings...

I would put money on what it brings not being what they (or indeed I) am/are after.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will be 50% DOO on an increased number of services anyway. IMO nobody will actually lose their jobs, there may well be a voluntary severance package at some point in a few years which may well be very beneficial to guards who are near to retirement anyway.

Quite possibly. Even more so than Merseyrail it'll be a phase-in. Recruitment may well be stopped, but most of Northern's fleet can't be run DOO without a massive investment in platform infrastructure and it isn't going to be fully replaced any time soon. It's nothing like GTR at all in that sense, which already had DOO-capable rolling stock and just essentially needed to throw a switch.

If no current guard will lose their job, I think the union argument is tenuous. It's only really the drivers who have an issue - but if that can be handled simply by recruiting all new drivers as DOO drivers is there a problem there either?

I don't believe unions should be getting involved in policy with regard to hypothetical future employees, just the ones paying them to represent them now.

 

[HH]

I would put money on what it brings not being what they (or indeed I) am/are after.

I suspect you are right; they may be thinking that they don't want to offer a red rag to a cow.

Fact is, if Labour was led by anyone else than JC, they'd be the ones looking at a landslide victory.

I despair at the choice we're being offered this election (unless you're lucky enough to live in Wales).

 

[Jamesrob637]

I see they're at it again on 30 May; the consolation is this time at least they've chosen the school half term for many so traffic won't be as chaotic. Hope the Manchester trams accept my season ticket as they did the last two times (though in fairness nobody even checked me either direction, either day!)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think it's about time ASLEF showed their hand in this dispute. I know for a fact there are quite a few Northern ASLEF drivers wondering why (seemingly) nothing is happening, after all it's in the ASLEF charter - "No more DOO".

Northern has not, yet, declared its specific plans for 50% DOO or given a start date.
RMT is engaging in pre-emptive strike action when there are no specific proposals, as part of its wider campaign involving Southern and Merseyrail.
ASLEF is (or at least was) negotiating with Southern on a solution there, and I imagine they want to sort that dispute out before picking needless fights on principle with Northern.
I imagine a Southern solution would provide the road map for solutions elsewhere.
However, that seems a long way off at the moment.

 

[northwichcat]

I see they're at it again on 30 May; the consolation is this time at least they've chosen the school half term for many so traffic won't be as chaotic. Hope the Manchester trams accept my season ticket as they did the last two times (though in fairness nobody even checked me either direction, either day!)

On many routes in to Manchester Piccadilly off-peak trains can be rammed during school half term. It looks like the RMT have carefully chosen that week to maximise Northern's loses.

 

[313103]

I see they're at it again on 30 May; the consolation is this time at least they've chosen the school half term for many so traffic won't be as chaotic. Hope the Manchester trams accept my season ticket as they did the last two times (though in fairness nobody even checked me either direction, either day!)

Who is this 'they're at it again' you show so much disdain for?

 

[313103]

Northern has not, yet, declared its specific plans for 50% DOO or given a start date.
RMT is engaging in pre-emptive strike action when there are no specific proposals, as part of its wider campaign involving Southern and Merseyrail.
ASLEF is (or at least was) negotiating with Southern on a solution there, and I imagine they want to sort that dispute out before picking needless fights on principle with Northern.
I imagine a Southern solution would provide the road map for solutions elsewhere.
However, that seems a long way off at the moment.

Then perhaps Northern should show its hand, as by not showing it but alluding to things that may or may not happen just creates uneasiness, untrustworthy and a workforce whose morale will echo that that is on Southern.

The only solution wanted by hm government is widespread Driver Only Operation, so they have in theory tied the new franchise owners one hand behind there back, however the new owners knew as much as i did that the government wanted this method of operation.

The southern solution is 100% Driver Only Operation so is not the way forward to help resolve the Northern dispute.

Cant comment about the issue of Aslef, suffice to say its leadership is not flavour of the month by its own members, it seems they are as much out of step as the company are in knowing what there members want.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Who is this 'they're at it again' you show so much disdain for?

Was this posting made in the hope that someone may possibly advise you, noting the date shown in the posting to which you have responded to does seem to be the same as a certain union inspired event. Perhaps it may just be a happy coincidence.

The showing of disdain is a personal matter that a system such as democracy allows for, unlike other state controlled scenarios.

 

[gavin]

Strike called off following Manchester bombing

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good call.

 

[northwichcat]

Talks to take place this week. John Tilley from the RMT said on Granada News that terrorist attacks will be more likely if guards are axed.

 

[speedy_sticks]

If RMT were smart they would talk about how Northern guards were their with help and assurance after Manchester and how much worse the panic and worry would have been if they weren't around