Arriva Trains Wales Query

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jones_bangor

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Llandudno - Manchester could be loco-hauled, no doubt about it, and Arriva have the Mark 2 stock available. They could even hire in the 57s from Virgin again.

I suppose the issues of run-round, and the extra staff required, is an issue.
 
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Llandudno - Manchester could be loco-hauled, no doubt about it, and Arriva have the Mark 2 stock available. They could even hire in the 57s from Virgin again.

I suppose the issues of run-round, and the extra staff required, is an issue.
It would be great at peak times. As a regular commuter, a bit more space would be most welcome and perhaps the option of FC could be included?
 

merlodlliw

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Llandudno - Manchester could be loco-hauled, no doubt about it, and Arriva have the Mark 2 stock available. They could even hire in the 57s from Virgin again.

I suppose the issues of run-round, and the extra staff required, is an issue.
indeed they could run loco hauled, but with ATW who will foot the bill, as ATW in their no growth contract, wont spend,it is sad with spare stock rusting away.


Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Except there are no Manchester-Holyhead services any more. Arriva did use a 57 and Mk2s for a while when they did run though.
You are correct, only one Sunday up train runs.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Run round at Manchester Piccadilly P13/14 is not really practicable with the volume of services these days.
Sets typically used to run on to Longsight or Stockport to turn (just as bad).
The 175s turn in Mayfield Loop but it's also very congested.

However, there's nothing to stop a loco set running through from Llandudno to South Wales...
Anyone fancy an hourly Llandudno-Manchester-Cardiff?
It would cut out the 20min layover in Piccadilly P8 on current South Wales services, and the hour the 175s park up at Mayfield on Llandudno services.
 

Gareth Marston

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This is my concern.

Six coach trains sound good, increasing frequencies on certain routes sound good, but things can only be stretched so far...
0809 BHM INTL to Aberystwyth will be a 4 car set on weekdays as well as Saturdays.
0930 Aberystwyth to BHM INTL will be 4 car from Aber to Machynlleth (instead of 2) and 6 car forward from Machynlleth. By default the 1309 BHM INTL to Holyhead will have to be 6 as far as Shrewsbury.
 

PHILIPE

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ATW have 5 X 150s over and above normal requirement because they are not being used for what they were intended for after transfer from Anglia early 2008. They promptly leased them to FGW for well over 3 years and have subsequently leased 1 to Anglia (150280). I cannot comment on the original requirement so please do not press me on the matter unless and official announcement should ever be forthcoming. Personally I think WAG and ATW hope it is something that has gone away.
 

philjo

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I have been in Church Stretton over Easter & have noticed a number of 158s passing through the area during the weekend, including both trains I used.

The 11:08 train I used from Crewe to CTT on Good Friday was a 158 as was the 09:30 from CTT this morning I used as far as Hereford.
 

Michael.Y

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I have been in Church Stretton over Easter & have noticed a number of 158s passing through the area during the weekend, including both trains I used.

The 11:08 train I used from Crewe to CTT on Good Friday was a 158 as was the 09:30 from CTT this morning I used as far as Hereford.
One reason is that the pax numbers have been lower - if the catering is anything to go by : Saturday the 0704 NWP-SHR and 0914 SHR-NWP were practically empty (I took about 30% of what I normally take on these trips) and Easter Monday morning I did the same diagram and again only took 60% or so of the diagram average. Easter Sunday was also especially quiet apparently, with takings well down on average.

I think the bulk of people travel before (Thu) and after (Tue) the Easter weekend, with fewer actually on the weekend. To illustrate this, I worked the 0557 NWP-SHR, then the 0900 SHR-SWA and the 1310 SWA-CDF yesterday, and ended up taking nearly 200% of the average. Also to slightly corroborate this point, Thursday our 1238 HHD-Maesteg boat train was full and standing between Bangor and Chester, so I didn't get an opportunity to work the train as much as I usually did, but still hit average, meaning that the demand was there for the other 8 hours of the journey. I wonder what I would have taken if there weren't so many people on board.

Incidentally, I worked 150124? yesterday on the HoWL - an ex-FGW if the seat colours were anything to go by! Was rather nostalgic given I used to use Wessex every day for three years.
 

Welshman

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It's a service affecting failure which is a delay of more than 3 minutes .
Thank you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Run round at Manchester Piccadilly P13/14 is not really practicable with the volume of services these days.
Sets typically used to run on to Longsight or Stockport to turn (just as bad).
The 175s turn in Mayfield Loop but it's also very congested.

However, there's nothing to stop a loco set running through from Llandudno to South Wales...
Anyone fancy an hourly Llandudno-Manchester-Cardiff?
It would cut out the 20min layover in Piccadilly P8 on current South Wales services, and the hour the 175s park up at Mayfield on Llandudno services.
I agree a runround in Manchester Piccadilly would be difficult most hours.

But they don't need to run-round. What is wrong with travelling the loop - Llandudno-Chester-Warrington-Manchester Piccadilly-Stockport-Altrincham & Chester to N Wales?

If they ran two trains per hour from N.Wales/Chester-Manchester going alternately round the loop, the stations on the line via Frodsham will see the same level of service as now, plus Altrincham and South Manchester would get some through services to N.Wales.

Presumably ATW crews know the Mid-Cheshire route as they have been diverted that way on Sundays up to Easter. I believe there used to be some co-operation in the past between FNW and Northern, or whoever had the franchises then. Is it too much to expect in today's privatised railway that such co-operation could be restarted?
 

Penmorfa

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Run round at Manchester Piccadilly P13/14 is not really practicable with the volume of services these days.
Sets typically used to run on to Longsight or Stockport to turn (just as bad).
The 175s turn in Mayfield Loop but it's also very congested.

However, there's nothing to stop a loco set running through from Llandudno to South Wales...
Anyone fancy an hourly Llandudno-Manchester-Cardiff?
It would cut out the 20min layover in Piccadilly P8 on current South Wales services, and the hour the 175s park up at Mayfield on Llandudno services.
The crossover at Llandudno is not worked from the signalbox. It is worked from a ground frame which is released from the signalbox. On the very rare occasions it is used it is worked by a man who comes in a van, from Holyhead I believe. So not really something that could be done on an hourly basis every day. The trackwork is also rather 'fragile'.
 

Gareth Marston

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Run round at Manchester Piccadilly P13/14 is not really practicable with the volume of services these days.
Sets typically used to run on to Longsight or Stockport to turn (just as bad).
The 175s turn in Mayfield Loop but it's also very congested.

However, there's nothing to stop a loco set running through from Llandudno to South Wales...
Anyone fancy an hourly Llandudno-Manchester-Cardiff?
It would cut out the 20min layover in Piccadilly P8 on current South Wales services, and the hour the 175s park up at Mayfield on Llandudno services.
Even if you could diagram it it would be disaster on 13/14 at Manchester Pic as you'd have full loads of people on platform waiting to get on as a full load get off in both directions. There's little scope for through passengers.
 

Rhydgaled

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So is the only hope for ATW's mark 2 fleet, given that (I think) they are through-wired for 37s, top&tail class 37 operation, or is there ANY run (other than special events trains from Cardiff to Holyhead, Carmarthen and Llandrindod Wells?) they could do without top&tail/DBSOs.
 

merlodlliw

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One reason is that the pax numbers have been lower - if the catering is anything to go by : Saturday the 0704 NWP-SHR and 0914 SHR-NWP were practically empty (I took about 30% of what I normally take on these trips) and Easter Monday morning I did the same diagram and again only took 60% or so of the diagram average. Easter Sunday was also especially quiet apparently, with takings well down on average.

I think the bulk of people travel before (Thu) and after (Tue) the Easter weekend, with fewer actually on the weekend. To illustrate this, I worked the 0557 NWP-SHR, then the 0900 SHR-SWA and the 1310 SWA-CDF yesterday, and ended up taking nearly 200% of the average. Also to slightly corroborate this point, Thursday our 1238 HHD-Maesteg boat train was full and standing between Bangor and Chester, so I didn't get an opportunity to work the train as much as I usually did, but still hit average, meaning that the demand was there for the other 8 hours of the journey. I wonder what I would have taken if there weren't so many people on board.

Incidentally, I worked 150124? yesterday on the HoWL - an ex-FGW if the seat colours were anything to go by! Was rather nostalgic given I used to use Wessex every day for three years.
Interesting stuff, are you on commission ?, the ferry trains are strange, the VT leaves about 90 minutes after the ATW all ten cars of it,few if any wait it from Holyhead,too late
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So is the only hope for ATW's mark 2 fleet, given that (I think) they are through-wired for 37s, top&tail class 37 operation, or is there ANY run (other than special events trains from Cardiff to Holyhead, Carmarthen and Llandrindod Wells?) they could do without top&tail/DBSOs.
I am only aware of of of about four of the mark2s in stock, that are fit for purpose & only used on Rugex about four times a year.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
ATW have 5 X 150s over and above normal requirement because they are not being used for what they were intended for after transfer from Anglia early 2008. They promptly leased them to FGW for well over 3 years and have subsequently leased 1 to Anglia (150280). I cannot comment on the original requirement so please do not press me on the matter unless and official announcement should ever be forthcoming. Personally I think WAG and ATW hope it is something that has gone away.
A good point you make,ATW were very keen on sub leasing franchise stock to other tocs 150s & a 175 to itself, The blurb put out in the letter by ATW to staff & stakeholders about the extra capacity from May using the same stock,makes me wonder if this is anything to do with the ATW 15 franchise ending soon.(thread number 26)
 
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Penmorfa

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The crossover at Llandudno is not worked from the signalbox. It is worked from a ground frame which is released from the signalbox. On the very rare occasions it is used it is worked by a man who comes in a van, from Holyhead I believe. So not really something that could be done on an hourly basis every day. The trackwork is also rather 'fragile'.
I was giving the run round facility at Llandudno too much credit by mentioning a ground frame. It is actually two hand thrown points, released from the signalbox. One can be seen in this photo:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/penmorfas/7070109533/in/photostream
 

Rhydgaled

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I am only aware of of of about four of the mark2s in stock, that are fit for purpose & only used on Rugex about four times a year.
That didn't answer my question of how the mark2s could be used, but is still a valid point. As far as I know there are six mark2s painted in the Gerald livery. 3 of these are used on Gerald, the other three I presume are used on Gerald when the first rake requires maintenance. All six have been formed into a single train for Holyhead - Cardiff rugex in the past.

Assuming 2 or 3 rakes of mark3 carriages appear to enable ATW to start using the DVTs, the six serviceable mark2s will be spare. It is possible that the two mark3 buffet cars will also be spare, but that depends if the new mark3 rakes include their own buffet cars or the existing ones get the DVT-67 through-wiring. Anyone know if the plan is to replace the current buffet vehicles or fit them with the necessary wiring?

There are also the stored mark2s, which bring ATW's total to either 18 or 22 (5 BSOs and 13 TSOs if the 18 vehicle count is used, of which 2 BSOs and 4 TSOs are painted in Gerald livery and are actually used). Granted the stored mark2s might not be fit for use, but they haven't been stored for as long as some other stock has and should therefore be relativly easy to refurbish back into operable condition. Given ATW need more stock, and there's no prospect of any DMU cascades for a few years, refurbishing those mark2s would be helpful if we can find a solution to the run-round problem. Does it have to be top&tail 37s or is there any route where conventional LHCS operation with run-round could work on ATW?

The blurb put out in the letter by ATW to staff & stakeholders about the extra capacity from May using the same stock,makes me wonder if this is anything to do with the ATW 15 franchise ending soon.(thread number 26)
But it isn't ending soon is it? According to wikipedia it ends 31st December 2018, so we are stuck with ATW for about another 6 years. ATW will have real trouble running their services this summer if they don't suprise everyone by getting the DVTs into service early to release the WAG2 175, even then being down a 175 (002) and a 158 (being refurbished) will make it difficult. Their plans might just be possible if they had those three extra units, but alot of 158 services would still be reduced to 150s.
 

Penmorfa

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So is the only hope for ATW's mark 2 fleet, given that (I think) they are through-wired for 37s, top&tail class 37 operation, or is there ANY run (other than special events trains from Cardiff to Holyhead, Carmarthen and Llandrindod Wells?) they could do without top&tail/DBSOs.
I don't think ATW's mark 2's have any form of through wiring. Arriva Trains Northern ran a Harrogate - Leeds- Settle - Carlisle service in 2004 using top and tailed 37's. The through wiring was a cable slung detween the outside of the carriages, not an internal fitting. The Rhymney services were only worked by a single 37/47 with a run round at each journey end.

So I think the answer to your question is that there is no long distance ATW service which could easily be converted to traditional loco hauled operation.
 

Rhydgaled

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I don't think ATW's mark 2's have any form of through wiring. Arriva Trains Northern ran a Harrogate - Leeds- Settle - Carlisle service in 2004 using top and tailed 37's. The through wiring was a cable slung detween the outside of the carriages, not an internal fitting.
Ok, I stand corrected. I thought the Arriva Trains Northern operation used proper through-wiring. Would slinging multiple working cables under them again to enable top & tail 37s, 47s or whatever else ATW can get their hands on be a viable option then? It's that or try and make some TDM fitted diesel locos and resurect the six stored mark2 DBSOs, we need the extra stock.
 

jones_bangor

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Ok, I stand corrected. I thought the Arriva Trains Northern operation used proper through-wiring. Would slinging multiple working cables under them again to enable top & tail 37s, 47s or whatever else ATW can get their hands on be a viable option then? It's that or try and make some TDM fitted diesel locos and resurect the six stored mark2 DBSOs, we need the extra stock.
Why bother with the dangerous DBSOs? There's plenty of Mark 3 DVTs spare.

There's probably enough 67s to do a top-and-tail (with the tail "dead in tow"), provided there's spare time at each end to start up.
 

Penmorfa

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Why bother with the dangerous DBSOs? There's plenty of Mark 3 DVTs spare.

what is dangerous about DBSO's?

There's probably enough 67s to do a top-and-tail (with the tail "dead in tow"), provided there's spare time at each end to start up.
Top and tail 67's is a grossly inefficient way to operate a train. WNXX currently shows 6 in store, that's enough to operate maybe 2 or 3 DMU diagrams. Which diagrams and routes would you choose?
 

Rhydgaled

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I'd only support top & tail if the stock is through-wired so both locos can provide power, the extra power should help sort out the lower acceleration everyone seems to complain about with LHCS. DBSOs can carry passengers, unlike DVTs (and I'd save the DVTs for 110/125mph operation with mark3s). They'd probably need a major refit though, and you need some TDM fitted diesel locos (all the class 43s are on IC125 sets now I think).

A few years back I said 6 mark2 sets with DBSOs (4 or 5 in service, the other(s) spare) should work Holyhead - Birmingam to release valuable 158s, but then found out you can't do that without diverting the Cambrian services away from Birmingham. It'd have the same problem, but another alternative would be putting the LHCS on Manchesters (either Llandudnos or Carmarthens) and cascading 3-car 175s to Holyhead - Birmingham, but is a 3-car 175 enough for that route?
 

merlodlliw

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That didn't answer my question of how the mark2s could be used, but is still a valid point. As far as I know there are six mark2s painted in the Gerald livery. 3 of these are used on Gerald, the other three I presume are used on Gerald when the first rake requires maintenance. All six have been formed into a single train for Holyhead - Cardiff rugex in the past.

Assuming 2 or 3 rakes of mark3 carriages appear to enable ATW to start using the DVTs, the six serviceable mark2s will be spare. It is possible that the two mark3 buffet cars will also be spare, but that depends if the new mark3 rakes include their own buffet cars or the existing ones get the DVT-67 through-wiring. Anyone know if the plan is to replace the current buffet vehicles or fit them with the necessary wiring?

There are also the stored mark2s, which bring ATW's total to either 18 or 22 (5 BSOs and 13 TSOs if the 18 vehicle count is used, of which 2 BSOs and 4 TSOs are painted in Gerald livery and are actually used). Granted the stored mark2s might not be fit for use, but they haven't been stored for as long as some other stock has and should therefore be relativly easy to refurbish back into operable condition. Given ATW need more stock, and there's no prospect of any DMU cascades for a few years, refurbishing those mark2s would be helpful if we can find a solution to the run-round problem. Does it have to be top&tail 37s or is there any route where conventional LHCS operation with run-round could work on ATW?

But it isn't ending soon is it? According to wikipedia it ends 31st December 2018, so we are stuck with ATW for about another 6 years. ATW will have real trouble running their services this summer if they don't suprise everyone by getting the DVTs into service early to release the WAG2 175, even then being down a 175 (002) and a 158 (being refurbished) will make it difficult. Their plans might just be possible if they had those three extra units, but alot of 158 services would still be reduced to 150s.
Appreciate ATW have a few years to go to end the 15 year franchise,but they are well passed the half way,and have to impress a few stakeholders to retain the contract, in whatever form it takes.

As or the Mark 2s, Arriva HQ sacked the CEO for buying them, it will be interesting to see what happens to them,but ATW wont pay for loco hire if history in that direction continues.

Bob
 

anthony263

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I do admit I like traveling on the refurbished class 158's like I did on Tuesday and to my surprise the air conditioning was working which made it very nice cool.

That said I am a fan of the class 175's especially if I am traveling to west wales.
 

Penmorfa

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I'd only support top & tail if the stock is through-wired so both locos can provide power, the extra power should help sort out the lower acceleration everyone seems to complain about with LHCS. DBSOs can carry passengers, unlike DVTs (and I'd save the DVTs for 110/125mph operation with mark3s). They'd probably need a major refit though, and you need some TDM fitted diesel locos (all the class 43s are on IC125 sets now I think).

A few years back I said 6 mark2 sets with DBSOs (4 or 5 in service, the other(s) spare) should work Holyhead - Birmingam to release valuable 158s, but then found out you can't do that without diverting the Cambrian services away from Birmingham. It'd have the same problem, but another alternative would be putting the LHCS on Manchesters (either Llandudnos or Carmarthens) and cascading 3-car 175s to Holyhead - Birmingham, but is a 3-car 175 enough for that route?
TDM is an obsolete system which has'nt been used for over 10 years. The only locos which you could use would be class 37 or 47. After all the expense of rewiring coaches and overhauling locos you would end up with 45 year old locos pulling 35 year old carriages. Try putting them on diagrams designed for modern DMU's and you would rapidly end up with reliability problems. It would be fun while it lasted though:D

175's could'nt work Holyhead - Birmingham services unless they were also fitted with ERTMS to also work on the Cambrian.
 

Rhydgaled

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Appreciate ATW have a few years to go to end the 15 year franchise,but they are well passed the half way,and have to impress a few stakeholders to retain the contract, in whatever form it takes.
I thought both Labour and Plaid had seen sense and are planning to install a not-for-profit operator when ATW's franchise finally ends.

A few years back I said 6 mark2 sets with DBSOs (4 or 5 in service, the other(s) spare) should work Holyhead - Birmingam to release valuable 158s, but then found out you can't do that without diverting the Cambrian services away from Birmingham. It'd have the same problem, but another alternative would be ... ... cascading 3-car 175s to Holyhead - Birmingham, but is a 3-car 175 enough for that route?
175's could'nt work Holyhead - Birmingham services unless they were also fitted with ERTMS to also work on the Cambrian.
I know that, see bold.

TDM is an obsolete system which has'nt been used for over 10 years. The only locos which you could use would be class 37 or 47. After all the expense of rewiring coaches and overhauling locos you would end up with 45 year old locos pulling 35 year old carriages. Try putting them on diagrams designed for modern DMU's and you would rapidly end up with reliability problems. It would be fun while it lasted though:D
TDM may not have been used on diesel services for over 20 years (only use the current form of TDM ever had with diesels was when some IC125 power cars had it fitted, along with buffers, to work as DVTs on the other end from the class 91s before the mark4s arrived), BUT (note: big but) is the system installed on the entire fleet of DVTs and DBSOs, and still in use on WCML (Pretendolino), ECML (Intercity 225s) and London - Norwich (90s + mark3s).

My idea was a complete re-engineering of class 47s to make like-new TDM-fitted class 57/7 locos (pretty much the only old stuff would be the bodyshell and bogies). Such a fleet would be very useful, as well as the Welsh services they could replace the 90/91 on the existing electric push-pull sets for off-wire journeys (the summer trains beyond Norwich for example, or when the GWML is electrified Swansea to Carmarthen/Pembroke Dock).
 

Penmorfa

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TDM may not have been used on diesel services for over 20 years (only use the current form of TDM ever had with diesels was when some IC125 power cars had it fitted, along with buffers, to work as DVTs on the other end from the class 91s before the mark4s arrived), BUT (note: big but) is the system installed on the entire fleet of DVTs and DBSOs, and still in use on WCML (Pretendolino), ECML (Intercity 225s) and London - Norwich (90s + mark3s).

My idea was a complete re-engineering of class 47s to make like-new TDM-fitted class 57/7 locos (pretty much the only old stuff would be the bodyshell and bogies). Such a fleet would be very useful, as well as the Welsh services they could replace the 90/91 on the existing electric push-pull sets for off-wire journeys (the summer trains beyond Norwich for example, or when the GWML is electrified Swansea to Carmarthen/Pembroke Dock).
Rather than going down that route, get some of these:

http://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/news/drs-orders-15-vossloh-eurolight-locos

makes far more sense than trying to breathe new life into an ancient bodyshell.
 

Rhydgaled

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Rather than going down that route, get some of these: http://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/news/drs-orders-15-vossloh-eurolight-locos makes far more sense than trying to breathe new life into an ancient bodyshell.
That's another option, provided they are TDM-compatable or have a system that can be fitted very quickly to DVTs and DBSOs at next to no cost.

I expect reusing an 'ancient' bodyshell might be a bit cheaper and slightly kinder to the enviroment and finite metal supplies than entirly new locos, which is about 3 quarters of the reason why I suggest that over new locos. The other quarter of the reason is I tend to find 47s/57s much more visually appealing than 67s. Unlike the current 57s, the goal for my proposed 57/7s would be long-term reliability, meaning that it would be a new loco in all but body shell. Mechanical and electrical components wear out, bodyshells (if looked after sufficently well) should last for centuries.
 

jones_bangor

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That's another option, provided they are TDM-compatable or have a system that can be fitted very quickly to DVTs and DBSOs at next to no cost.

I expect reusing an 'ancient' bodyshell might be a bit cheaper and slightly kinder to the enviroment and finite metal supplies than entirly new locos, which is about 3 quarters of the reason why I suggest that over new locos. The other quarter of the reason is I tend to find 47s/57s much more visually appealing than 67s. Unlike the current 57s, the goal for my proposed 57/7s would be long-term reliability, meaning that it would be a new loco in all but body shell. Mechanical and electrical components wear out, bodyshells (if looked after sufficently well) should last for centuries.
I'm sure your sentiments would be welcomed by enthusiasts, but what the passengers want is a reliable, modern looking locomotive that doesn't break down........
 
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