ASLEF non-contractual overtime bans -various dates and TOCs

[Silverlinky]

Indeed you would at least think they would at least put one of the Tlk on the other half hour. Also bizarre they are trying to run the 9J's which need split crews (several cancelled today) when the 9R's are worked throughout by either Bridges or Bedford drivers. Plenty of drivers in the lobby at Redhill when i passed through early as well hardly surprising given their main duties the 1R's have all been canned.

There is no incentive on them to do anything better but DfT should instruct them to basically rehash the timetable to what can be delivered by driver establishment without o/t or RDW. Might not be even throughout the day but will be a darn sight better than what is being offered this week and at least use the resources that are having to be paid for whether they are allocated work or not.

Reality is the ASLEF membership have democratically voted for action which along with govt policy not to give any ground to any group of state funded workers now means this situation will not be resolved anytime soon hence my view is operators just need to implement the best timetables they can with the resources they have.

You have to jump through hoops to "rehash the timetable" as every station in the country has a minimum service requirement (or something like that)

I remember reading through WMT's franchise agreement where it stated for example that station A had to have x number of trains per day of which y needed to be in the am peak and z needed to be in the PM peak. It is not easy (at least on a longer-term basis, ie not an emergency timetable) to just slash services to match the depot numbers (establishment) as in theory the establishment should already mirror the requirements to run the full service.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You have to jump through hoops to "rehash the timetable" as every station in the country has a minimum service requirement (or something like that)

I remember reading through WMT's franchise agreement where it stated for example that station A had to have x number of trains per day of which y needed to be in the am peak and z needed to be in the PM peak. It is not easy (at least on a longer-term basis, ie not an emergency timetable) to just slash services to match the depot numbers (establishment) as in theory the establishment should already mirror the requirements to run the full service.

but it clearly doesn't at many locations otherwise services wouldn't be slashed so much this week at certain operators. Also even with recent driver recruitment campaigns it will take 18mths to bring to fruition additional resources and even then you will have retirement and natural wastage to contend with so there is no short term ability to improve this. Furthermore when AWC had the work to rule last Autumn they came up with a temporary timetable and TPE has been in that space for years so it can be done.

Reality is this with 90%+ of ASLEF membership supporting the leadership this will just keep escalating and an outright o/t ban must be next step. Also its pretty evident Torys are now on a scorched earth policy across all public sector activities running them into the ground and don't expect Labour to be that helpful should they be the next government they wont have the money. So there will be no resolution to this anytime soon which is why operators need to have timetables that can be resourced by current establishment without resorting to o/t or RDW.

 

[irish_rail]

They're not doing that, however. They're trying to stop their terms and conditions being decimated. I've not seen any of them, either on here nor anywhere else, demand a "big payout" (ie one that would reverse the real-terms cuts staff at many TOCs have faced over the last four years - and the post you quote doesn't do that either, it merely suggests the sort of figure those staff would need in order to do so), but I have seen plenty say circa 5% with no change to T&Cs would see them accept.

Indeed. Most drivers I talk to agree that we would be happy with 4 percent rise, provided its no strings attached. Not many other industries who would happily accept that after 4 years of zero percent rises, and 8 percent inflation, but hey drivers are all so greedy...... it really does feel like we are wasting our breath , its all about CONDITIONS, and the governemnts pathetic attempts to drastically alter our work life balance, NOT money.

 

[Kite159]

Wouldn’t be surprised to see most Saturdays in August targeted, and half the summer hols hit by a overtime ban too as they will no doubt try to ramp things up a bit.

Could be a difficult summer again.

Also, you do have to wonder if the DFT are testing the water a bit with these reduction plans due to ASLEF overtime ban and seeing what works and what doesn’t on a reduced scale for a long term strategy.

Will just mean more leisure passengers decide enough is enough and switch away from using the railway as an option to travel to/from holidays or other days out, even going as far as buying a car & learning to drive.

If the overtime ban lasts longer than a week, you can see the DfT making up plans to bring in cut back timetables which don't require any overtime to operate. Similar to Avanti did last year when they cut services back to 4tph from London

 

[43066]

Thank you for letting me know my opinion is irrelevant. Could the moderators please ensure future posts to this thread are only made by people who earn at least as much as 43066?

It’s nothing to do with what I earn.

You could tell me what you earn, and I could tell you what I think of your salary. How on earth would that opinion be of any relevance to you?

Will just mean more leisure passengers decide enough is enough and switch away from using the railway as an option to travel to/from holidays or other days out, even going as far as buying a car & learning to drive.

Ah yes the myth that industrial action drives passengers away permanently. Never happened yet in the history of the railway, so a risk worth taking…

If the overtime ban lasts longer than a week, you can see the DfT making up plans to bring in cut back timetables which don't require any overtime to operate. Similar to Avanti did last year when they cut services back to 4tph from London

And therefore further strangling revenue, and costing the taxpayer millions more to subsidise the railway (and far more than settling the dispute). Quite a reckless use of public money from a government that claims to be focussed on controlling costs…

 

[Kite159]

Ah yes the myth that industrial action drives passengers away. Never happened yet in the history of the railway…

Citation please for such a bold statement

 

[scrapy]

Trains left in stations, yes. But never on a running line - nobody abandons a train in this situation

No but a driver will clear it to the nearest available siding. There have been trains cancelled during the last overtime ban to allow these units to then be retrieved from the sidings and to be taken to the depot.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Indeed. Most drivers I talk to agree that we would be happy with 4 percent rise, provided its no strings attached. Not many other industries who would happily accept that after 4 years of zero percent rises, and 8 percent inflation, but hey drivers are all so greedy...... it really does feel like we are wasting our breath , its all about CONDITIONS, and the governemnts pathetic attempts to drastically alter our work life balance, NOT money.

Perhaps the ASLEF cardholders need to go to their branch secretaries and get them to lobby HQ to push for that. Sure as hell the DfT / Treasury aren't going to back down anytime soon and are IMHO trying to starve the drivers and guards back to work. AIUI it is mostly about the T&Cs so 4% no strings makes a lot of sense, but if I an honest I think the unions are in a war with the goverment, but I wouldn't necessarily assume Labour will win the next GE so it might be a wasted effort.

 

[43066]

Citation please

The growth year on year every year from the mid 90s up until Covid? The rebound in GTR passengers after the protracted DOO dispute? Even the current dispute has been ongoing for a year or more, yet passenger numbers have grown in that time!

You’re the one claiming it will happen, so can you point to a dispute that has led to a permanent reduction in passenger numbers?

If you’re concerned about numbers falling, presumably you’d support the government settling the dispute quickly and allowing the railway to recover, rather than wasting yet more of your tax money subsidising a railway that’s barely functioning?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

You do yet that the reason different governmental departments exist is so that these matters can be dealt with in parallel, rather than in series?

It isn’t a case of “we’ve dealt with the NHS, now let’s move onto railways”.

But the government can't seem to deal with anything unless its in their own interests....

 

[43066]

But the government can't seem to deal with anything unless its in their own interests....

Well that’s true, but then sorting out the NHS wont be a primary concern either from that point of view, and it will cost a damn sight more than the railway! It surely can’t be doing them good electorally to have these disputes running on…

 

[Robertj21a]

Well that’s true, but then sorting out the NHS wont be a primary concern either from that point of view, and it will cost a damn sight more than the railway! It surely can’t be doing them good electorally to have these disputes running on…

On the contrary, surely ?

The government being seen to take a tough line with Trade Unions often goes down quite well (albeit less so if it's nurses or teachers).

Rail Unions are an easy target when they are often considered to be the more militant ones, and relatively few of the public are affected by their actions.

 

[Bluejays]

Indeed. Most drivers I talk to agree that we would be happy with 4 percent rise, provided its no strings attached. Not many other industries who would happily accept that after 4 years of zero percent rises, and 8 percent inflation, but hey drivers are all so greedy...... it really does feel like we are wasting our breath , its all about CONDITIONS, and the governemnts pathetic attempts to drastically alter our work life balance, NOT money.

Exactly the same for most of the fellow RMT members I speak too. There's an easy deal for the government to make, that they could easily spin as a win for them, ' the unions asked for double digits but we only gave them 4'. For some reason they seem to prefer having a fight.

 

[ruaival]

On the "impact" front this appears to have delivered a later than planned driver taking 5K89 to Stoke-on-Trent almost 20 minutes this morning with a result that they were turned at Macclesfield so that 2H81 was carrying also 2H89 Stoke to Macclesfield passengers and overfull including 5 bicycles! with arrival at Manchester Piccadilly free of passenger incident only down to human good nature. I am not sure how much pressure that puts on either side's negotiators, but it was clear that many passengers were inconvenienced.

 

[infobleep]

Indeed. Most drivers I talk to agree that we would be happy with 4 percent rise, provided its no strings attached. Not many other industries who would happily accept that after 4 years of zero percent rises, and 8 percent inflation, but hey drivers are all so greedy...... it really does feel like we are wasting our breath , its all about CONDITIONS, and the governemnts pathetic attempts to drastically alter our work life balance, NOT money.

If only ASLEF would make that point more clearly when on the radio or TV.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

I am planning to meet up with a friend possibly on Monday 17th July I will be travelling from Liverpool was thinking about York but how are TPE services running as this will be one of the days of action short of a strike so don't want to risk cancellation if not we have the option of meeting in Carlisle or Lancaster which would be the best option for me my friend is coming from Scotland so would those services be ok how have TPE been running do you think York would be worth risking?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I am planning to meet up with a friend possibly on Monday 17th July I will be travelling from Liverpool was thinking about York but how are TPE services running as this will be one of the days of action short of a strike so don't want to risk cancellation if not we have the option of meeting in Carlisle or Lancaster which would be the best option for me my friend is coming from Scotland so would those services be ok how have TPE been running do you think York would be worth risking?

I aimed to go Liverpool-Leeds yesterday, and the night before all seemed well with TPE (checking services on RTT).
Even first thing yesterday there was only one cancellation, an incoming service from Hull.
But by the time I reached Lime St half the Leeds services (xx54) had been cancelled.
So I didn't bother going to Leeds, but I ended up at Man Vic later to find the same 50% cancellations on the return to Liverpool.
While I was there a Liverpool service arrived and was terminated with passengers booted off; the 802 then went to the Exchange siding.
I picked up the next service (2x185 from Hull).
So not quite hopeless, but not what the timetable says either.
At Preston I noticed a couple of 397s on Edinburgh-Man Airport services running normally.
Northern and Avanti also seemed pretty normal.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

SWR seems to have cut their timetable (Alton is only hourly) but what's GWR like?

 

[Goldfish62]

If only ASLEF would make that point more clearly when on the radio or TV.

Mick Whelan made that point on Sky News the other day, but the BBC has hardly mentioned the overtime ban. It was a minor "in other news" item on the 6 O'clock news on Monday.

 

[Snow1964]

For example, they want to be able to decide what times of the day a driver works when they are given a roster, rather than them having certainly in advance that during x period they will be doing nights and y period days.

It would mean they can't plan for a social life as they would never know what hours of the day they would be working until they were given a roster.

That doesn't seem fair to me.

I don't think ASLEF media team have done a very good job at explaining this, as nearly all comments by various media outlets seem to focus on pay percentages and amount earned, and imply that is 100% of the dispute.

I wouldn't be surprised if even members of Government and DfT have only got the edited version that it is basically only a pay amount dispute too.

I actually read one article that said ASLEF are doing an overtime ban, because their staff are well paid and don't need the overtime, and that was it. Clearly no attempt at explanation and bit of 2+2 is 5 filling in going on, which ASLEF are not attempting to fix.

This is how the press release starts. ....dispute over pay. So reads as just pay, nothing else in dispute.

ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, has announced that members at 16 companies will refuse to work overtime from 17 - 22 July in the union’s ongoing national dispute over pay.

ASLEF Announces Further Overtime Ban | ASLEF

ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, has announced that members at 16 companies will refuse to work overtime from 17 - 22 July in the union’s ongoing national dispute over pay.

aslef.org.uk

 

[ainsworth74]

Indeed. Most drivers I talk to agree that we would be happy with 4 percent rise, provided its no strings attached. Not many other industries who would happily accept that after 4 years of zero percent rises, and 8 percent inflation, but hey drivers are all so greedy...... it really does feel like we are wasting our breath , its all about CONDITIONS, and the governemnts pathetic attempts to drastically alter our work life balance, NOT money.

In which case you and your fellows urgently need to start hassling your branch reps to start hassling those higher up the food chain. Because whilst you guys maybe more fussed about your Ts&Cs and changes to them (which I fully support because some of the changes to things like spare shifts sound bonkers) even ASLEF's own PR pieces are presenting this as a dispute about pay rather than Ts&Cs!

It's surprising really. Historically I've always seen ASLEF as a much cannier operation than the RMT when it comes to the narrative that gets painted. I well recall an excellent video that ASLEF produced (I think around the time of the Southern DOO dispute) arguing in favour of retaining guards which was far more persuasive than anything the RMT were producing at the same time for instance. But it feels like they're dropping the ball so far on this one and their communication strategy is quite weak and, by focussing on pay, actively harmful in some respects.

 

[43066]

This is how the press release starts. ....dispute over pay. So reads as just pay, nothing else in dispute.

This is very sloppy, and a big error on ASLEF’s part.

In which case you and your fellows urgently need to start hassling your branch reps to start hassling those higher up the food chain. Because whilst you guys maybe more fussed about your Ts&Cs and changes to them (which I fully support because some of the changes to things like spare shifts sound bonkers) even ASLEF's own PR pieces are presenting this as a dispute about pay rather than Ts&Cs!

It's surprising really. Historically I've always seen ASLEF as a much cannier operation than the RMT when it comes to the narrative that gets painted. I well recall an excellent video that ASLEF produced (I think around the time of the Southern DOO dispute) arguing in favour of retaining guards which was far more persuasive than anything the RMT were producing at the same time for instance. But it feels like they're dropping the ball so far on this one and their communication strategy is quite weak and, by focussing on pay, actively harmful in some respects.

Fully agreed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is very sloppy, and a big error on ASLEF’s part.

Agree there. I would vote to strike with the T&Cs as presently offered. I would, by contrast, vote for the pay deal offered if it stood alone. The stuff about being able to chop and change rest days as they want in particular needs to come out, that would be a red line for me. I'd be more bothered about that than even something like DOO. If I have a day off I want to be able to make firm plans for it, and that's a non-negotiable. I'd not even agree that with a 100% pay rise.

 

[43066]

Agree there. I would vote to strike with the T&Cs as presently offered. I would, by contrast, vote for the pay deal offered if it stood alone. The stuff about being able to chop and change rest days as they want in particular needs to come out, that would be a red line for me. I'd be more bothered about that than even something like DOO. If I have a day off I want to be able to make firm plans for it, and that's a non-negotiable. I'd not even agree that with a 100% pay rise.

Exactly how many of us feel, the job requires enough compromises on the home life front as it is.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I aimed to go Liverpool-Leeds yesterday, and the night before all seemed well with TPE (checking services on RTT).
Even first thing yesterday there was only one cancellation, an incoming service from Hull.
But by the time I reached Lime St half the Leeds services (xx54) had been cancelled.
So I didn't bother going to Leeds, but I ended up at Man Vic later to find the same 50% cancellations on the return to Liverpool.
While I was there a Liverpool service arrived and was terminated with passengers booted off; the 802 then went to the Exchange siding.
I picked up the next service (2x185 from Hull).
So not quite hopeless, but not what the timetable says either.
At Preston I noticed a couple of 397s on Edinburgh-Man Airport services running normally.
Northern and Avanti also seemed pretty normal.

TPE were running a limit timetable this morning at Lime St, times differed from what passengers tickets and which caused some confusion

 

[dk1]

Considering the reduced service there were no less than 17 spare mainline drivers at my depot yesterday along with the guards booked to work them and the trains residing in the depot.

 

[SJN]

Agree there. I would vote to strike with the T&Cs as presently offered. I would, by contrast, vote for the pay deal offered if it stood alone. The stuff about being able to chop and change rest days as they want in particular needs to come out, that would be a red line for me. I'd be more bothered about that than even something like DOO. If I have a day off I want to be able to make firm plans for it, and that's a non-negotiable. I'd not even agree that with a 100% pay rise.

I’m a driver and I’ve said to my friends they could offer me a 100% rise and I’d vote against it with those changes to conditions. I’ll never vote for it.

 

[Silverlinky]

WMT/LNR cancelled 22 of their planned 1160 services yesterday. Normal timetable in operation on all routes and less than 2% cancellations due to lack of traincrew.

 

[father_jack]

Considering the reduced service there were no less than 17 spare mainline drivers at my depot yesterday along with the guards booked to work them and the trains residing in the depot.

Thats the unintended consequence of an overtime ban. The operator cuts services and the spares sit spare. And the fewer trains running are packed so who really wins ?

 

[dk1]

Thats the unintended consequence of an overtime ban. The operator cuts services and the spares sit spare. And the fewer trains running are packed so who really wins ?

The messroom vending/fruit machine operator?