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ASLEF strikes 5th-8th April weekend

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43066

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It‘s the responsibility of everyone employed by ‘the railway’ to grow it, in the sense of making it better for passengers and freight users. I don’t think anyone employed by the railway will disagree with that, or if they do they need to find a new career.

That’s all very well as an abstract soundbite - especially when it isn’t your own work life balance and Ts and Cs in the firing line - but how does it relate to the current dispute? And how does it relate to the railway where TOCs now have little to no autonomy over their own businesses, and where all frontline staff are facing an attack on their Ts and Cs, irrespective of the effort they make individually?

Unless you’re suggesting ASLEF and its members should all just quietly accept the government ripping up our Ts and Cs “for the good of the railway”. Good luck with that! It’s funny how nobody expects the problems in other industries (eg NHS waiting lists) to be magically solved by screwing over front line staff.

Call me out for being cynical, but I think the current government are leaving as many 'banana skins' for the incoming government as they can, and when a settlement is reached after the election they can then play the inevitable 'Labour caving to the Unions' card (HS2 is another rail related one, as well as others outside the rail industry). Beyond the spin they know they have lost the upcoming election, the more hardheaded ones behind the scenes will be looking ahead to try and get back in after 5 years, and the easiest way is to leave issues which will look for bad for the new government.

And to those who say I am being to harsh in my assesment, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck then it probably is a duck.

What is sad about all this is that I would regard myself as a conservative (with a small C) but the current government are up there with one of the most ineffectve and disorganised within my memory, which is 60 years ish.

Unfortunately both rail users and workers (i.e. ASLEF in this case) are the losers.

Agree with all of this (and I have similar politics). They’ve basically adopted a scorched earth policy as far as public services (and finances) are concerned.

Fair enough, but unfortunately there is no sign of the Government changing their position regarding Drivers.

In which case why should anyone imagine ASLEF’s approach will change? We’re better off continuing as we are until the next election, now only a matter of months away. That’s far more attractive to me as a member than giving up Ts and Cs that will never be won back and, if lost, will make the job unliveable.

That for me is what ASLEF should have been focussing their campaign on; Obviously pay is an issue too but the additional disruption to the work/life balance of a group of people already working extremely unsocial hours should have formed, IMHO, the main thrust of their case. Were I still at work, I would have been as unhappy as Drivers with such changes to T&Cs.

And if I were ASLEF I would be looking to highlight arrangements in other safety critical industries, and the negative impact that not managing it or not taking it into account has on overall safety, with both examples of how not to do it, and also best practice.

I also believe that a well paid and content workforce is essential in any safety critical role.

Also true, and most intelligent/sensible people are understanding of that once what’s really going on behind the pay-focussed headlines has been explained.

But ultimately, who do we really need to convince?! There’s little point “making a case” to halfwits who read the Daily Mail, or those who despise traincrew and unions by default because they have some sort of axe to grind, so why bother trying!?
 
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GRALISTAIR

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I also believe that a well paid and content workforce is essential in any safety critical role.
Isn't that Richard Branson's (love him or hate him) mantra?
Take care of your employees and they will be happy and content.
Your employees then take care of your passengers/customers.
Your customers take care of your shareholders/DfT etc.
 

12LDA28C

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What's the betting still no minimum service level this time?

Pathetic if so, forgivable if something does run.

Why pathetic? Everyone knows the legislation is unworkable and that the Government would have been much better off entering talks to settle the dispute rather than introducing a toothless law to attempt to force people to work.
 

greyman42

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If it wasn't for the English government interfering, then I'm sure these disputes may have been resolved a lot sooner or even better.
I was not aware that England had it's own government. Do you mean the UK government?
 

infobleep

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Why don't ASLEF split up the strike up across different dates for a TOC, rather than each TOC being fully on a set fsy.

For example, would it not make more sense for North Downs Line trains to not be running the same day as South Western Railway? Yet they awill not running the same day as LNER are disrupted, which is nowhere near thr NDL.

I would then have other parts of GWR strike when Cross Country Trains are striking.
 

Goldfish62

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Why don't ASLEF split up the strike up across different dates for a TOC, rather than each TOC being fully on a set fsy.

For example, would it not make more sense for North Downs Line trains to not be running the same day as South Western Railway? Yet they awill not running the same day as LNER are disrupted, which is nowhere near thr NDL.

I would then have other parts of GWR strike when Cross Country Trains are striking.
It's not for them to pick and choose what services run. Either they call all relevant members out or they don't. There's no halfway house.
 

Val3ntine

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Sorry, but I worked for Sainsbury's for seven years and it was instilled in absolutely every member of staff that they had a responsibility to grow sales:
  1. Warehouse staff ensuring products were in the right place to be located for the shop floor.
  2. Shop floor staff ensuring products were correctly and tidily displayed.
  3. Cleaning staff ensuring the store was hygienic and welcoming.
  4. Price control staff ensuring that tickets were correctly labelled and marketing correctly displayed.
  5. Customer service staff ensuring that customers received great service.
All of the above was instilled in us within the understanding that doing it right would grow sales. And it did.

In every revenue earning organisation I have ever worked, it has been the responsibility of all to grow sales. Particularly those on higher salaries.

Maybe I misunderstand the above, but how is this statement anything but in agreement with the fact that drivers simply need to do what is in their job description? I don’t see anything above and beyond the basics in what you have described in each job title.
 

Horizon22

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What about the HGV drivers? Or were they just told to get their load from A to B in a safe and timely fashion?

Which would still be helpful for the business. No incidents, means less delays which means produce arriving on time.

Obviously having some pride in your job helps morale which generally means people have more goodwill etc. But it's hardly a surprise this is at (near) zero for many railway staff over the last 3-4 years.
 

vicbury

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Maybe I misunderstand the above, but how is this statement anything but in agreement with the fact that drivers simply need to do what is in their job description? I don’t see anything above and beyond the basics in what you have described in each job title.
These aren't separate job details, these are what all members of staff are doing at any given time based on how busy the shop is, when deliveries arrive, when promotions are changing etc. Imagine asking train drivers, who earn two-three times more than a supermarket worker, to be so flexible in their daily job role!
 

ComUtoR

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Which would still be helpful for the business. No incidents, means less delays which means produce arriving on time.

Doing your job correctly and growing the business are linked but not really the same. Stock availability will impact your customers so yeah, get stuff to the shop floor efficiently and timely. However, procurement of new hand held terminals and back office epos integration isn't something staff are directly involved in or within the purview of the local Union. Do the till staff help create the business plan, set KPI's, implement advertising strategy, stakeholder collaboration, recruitment, or get involved in PR management ?

Most staff across many many industries simply, go to work, do their job, and then go home.
 

12LDA28C

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These aren't separate job details, these are what all members of staff are doing at any given time based on how busy the shop is, when deliveries arrive, when promotions are changing etc. Imagine asking train drivers, who earn two-three times more than a supermarket worker, to be so flexible in their daily job role!

You literally described them as 'warehouse staff, shop floor staff, cleaning staff' and so on, implying they all have differing and clearly defined roles. Or are you suggesting that the cleaners also pop onto the tills or stack shelves when necessary? Train drivers already have plenty of flexibility built into their Ts & Cs which form part of their contract, or are you suggesting that they also sweep platforms, clean toilets and sell tickets?
 

infobleep

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It's not for them to pick and choose what services run. Either they call all relevant members out or they don't. There's no halfway house.
So they can't call half the members out from set depots one day and others from other depots on other days? Is that illegal?
 

dk1

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So they can't call half the members out from set depots one day and others from other depots on other days? Is that illegal?

Certainly not. It doesn’t work like that. All depots can do individually is something like an overtime ban.
 

Confused52

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I recall Mick Whelan stating that he would not agree with a single word of the RDG offer in the Transport Select Committee. The Offer called for TOC by TOC negotiations with the reaching of a settlement, and it did not say that acceptance in full was a precondition - it was stated to be normal collective bargaining. As far as I can tell ASLEF have not enabled any such negotiation and continue to claim that they are being asked to accept the worst case interpretation of the offer in full. This appears to be an extreme position designed to prevent any agreement without a change of Government. This position appears to have been a starting position from the evidence and not one which has emerged, there having been no negotiation.

At the same time they claim that the fault is entirely the Government's whilst refusing to actually try to negotiate a settlement. If this understanding is incorrect by way of actual negotiations with TOCs having taken place please provide evidence, since none appears to exist.
 
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vicbury

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You literally described them as 'warehouse staff, shop floor staff, cleaning staff' and so on, implying they all have differing and clearly defined roles. Or are you suggesting that the cleaners also pop onto the tills or stack shelves when necessary? Train drivers already have plenty of flexibility built into their Ts & Cs which form part of their contract, or are you suggesting that they also sweep platforms, clean toilets and sell tickets?
Yes, it is exactly the same staff doing the cleaning, filling the shelves, and being on the tills. Only the very largest stores have departmental roles nowadays and even then staff are expected to switch departments, with literally one minute's notice, as needed. It would not be unreasonable at all for train drivers to be sweeping platforms and acting in customer service roles when they are not required to drive a train.
 

12LDA28C

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It would not be unreasonable at all for train drivers to be sweeping platforms and acting in customer service roles when they are not required to drive a train.

Really? That wouldn't be a very productive use of someone who is highly skilled and on a salary commensurate with the associated responsibility would it? You could pay someone a much lower wage to sweep platforms although if you believe an unskilled job like that is worthy of a £60k salary then fair enough!

Train drivers are employed and paid to drive trains. When they're not doing that they are probably on their break which is a legal requirement. They don't have time to carry out other more menial duties. I don't think you really understand the job of a driver at all.
 

baz962

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Yes, it is exactly the same staff doing the cleaning, filling the shelves, and being on the tills. Only the very largest stores have departmental roles nowadays and even then staff are expected to switch departments, with literally one minute's notice, as needed. It would not be unreasonable at all for train drivers to be sweeping platforms and acting in customer service roles when they are not required to drive a train.
Bit of a difference as we are nearly always driving trains and on the rare occasions we aren't , we are doing a safety brief or rules or medical etc. And when not doing any of that we need to be ready to drive at a moments notice and couldn't really be tied up in the middle of other stuff.
 

Dr Hoo

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Sorry, but I worked for Sainsbury's for seven years and it was instilled in absolutely every member of staff that they had a responsibility to grow sales:
  1. Warehouse staff ensuring products were in the right place to be located for the shop floor.
  2. Shop floor staff ensuring products were correctly and tidily displayed.
  3. Cleaning staff ensuring the store was hygienic and welcoming.
  4. Price control staff ensuring that tickets were correctly labelled and marketing correctly displayed.
  5. Customer service staff ensuring that customers received great service.
All of the above was instilled in us within the understanding that doing it right would grow sales. And it did.

In every revenue earning organisation I have ever worked, it has been the responsibility of all to grow sales. Particularly those on higher salaries.

Maybe I misunderstand the above, but how is this statement anything but in agreement with the fact that drivers simply need to do what is in their job description? I don’t see anything above and beyond the basics in what you have described in each job title.
I think that I get @vicbury 's point.

As a former BR Station Manager I can't help looking at people around me, alert for anybody who looks lost, confused, ill, etc. I was in a branch of Sainsbury's recently and noticed an elderly customer without a trolley or basket looking at a bag of vegetables in their hand and apparently fazed at the same time. As it happened the Store Manager was in the same aisle as was a Warehouseperson just on their way to start their shift. Both the staff had noticed the situation at the same moment. The Warehouseperson stepped up and asked the customer "can I get you a basket?" at the same instant as the Store Manager uttered an identical phrase, followed by "thanks [name], I'll get the customer a basket and you can get to your job". This was followed up by the Manager getting the basket and ascertaining whether the customer needed any further assistance.

At one level both the Warehouseperson and the Manager had their 'own' jobs to do and could have shrugged 'don't they know that this is a self-service shop' whilst walking on by but of course they didn't. I have no reason to think that any other major supermarket chain would be substantially different.
 

Val3ntine

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These aren't separate job details, these are what all members of staff are doing at any given time based on how busy the shop is, when deliveries arrive, when promotions are changing etc. Imagine asking train drivers, who earn two-three times more than a supermarket worker, to be so flexible in their daily job role!

Literally not how you described it. again, I can’t see anything you’ve said which isn’t in total agreement that train drivers already are flexible, they do their job description at a high standard. Apart from coming in to work for free or doing overtime above their hours unpaid I really don’t know what else is expected here?

Yes, it is exactly the same staff doing the cleaning, filling the shelves, and being on the tills. Only the very largest stores have departmental roles nowadays and even then staff are expected to switch departments, with literally one minute's notice, as needed. It would not be unreasonable at all for train drivers to be sweeping platforms and acting in customer service roles when they are not required to drive a train.

This would all have been in their job description though? So again they are doing their job.
 

12LDA28C

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At the same time they claim that the fault is entirely the Government's whilst refusing to actually try to negotiate a settlement. If this understanding is incorrect by way of actual negotiations with TOCs having taken place please provide evidence, since none appears to exist.

The Government has refused to meet with ASLEF for over a year. Who is it who's not trying to negotiate a settlement?

Now this has got to be a wind up :lol:

It's not even April Fools' Day yet, is it?
 

ComUtoR

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At one level both the Warehouseperson and the Manager had their 'own' jobs to do and could have shrugged 'don't they know that this is a self-service shop' whilst walking on by but of course they didn't. I have no reason to think that any other major supermarket chain would be substantially different.

I worked in retail for a considerable amount of time. Basic customer service is easy. Picking up a basket for a customer requires zero skill. However, the till requires training, cashing up requires training, event counting requires training, various tasks need some kind of briefing and even a specific qualification, the till staff aren't voiding out transactions, you need to be over 18 to sell alcohol, the baker is not serving on the fish counter etc etc.

As a Train Driver, I couldn't suddenly start selling tickets.

It would not be unreasonable at all for train drivers to be sweeping platforms

I'd need a manual handling course and safety briefing...
 

Confused52

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The Government has refused to meet with ASLEF for over a year. Who is it who's not trying to negotiate a settlement?



It's not even April Fools' Day yet, is it?
The Government is not the employer, the TOCs (which have chosne to negotiate jointly in part, but not on detailed T&Cs, via the RDG) are the employer. Not talking to the TOCs is what makes it such that ASLEF have not chosen to negotiate, which your response at least confirms.

...
I'd need a manual handling course ...
Not necessary for a brush due to it being less than the appropriate weight!
 

infobleep

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Certainly not. It doesn’t work like that. All depots can do individually is something like an overtime ban.
As that is the case, what makes Saturday a better day for GWR drivers to strike than say Friday, when Cross Country are stricking.

Which train operator do they most parallel? Obviously Oxford has Chiltern services as well as GWR but then passengers from Guildford to Gatwick Airport cam go direct or via Clapham Junction and GWR are striking on a different day to SWR and GTR.
 

class ep-09

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The Government is not the employer, the TOCs (which have chosne to negotiate jointly in part, but not on detailed T&Cs, via the RDG) are the employer. Not talking to the TOCs is what makes it such that ASLEF have not chosen to negotiate, which your response at least confirms.


Not necessary for a brush due to it being less than the appropriate weight!
Wrong.
TOC’s can negotiate whatever they want with the unions ( and many would have already done so ) but government does not want to sign off / pay for any agreements
 
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