ASLEF strikes 5th-8th April weekend

[Urban Gateline]

Then there’s the reality that the choice cuts both ways. Even where a RDW agreement is in place, as it is at the vast majority of TOCs, the choice to do overtime may still not be there if enough drivers are recruited to cover the work without it. There’s no obligation on the TOCs to provide overtime.

You say that, but at SWR Drivers have a set number of guaranteed FDW even if all the turns are covered, probably unique to SWR though!

 

[dk1]

You say that, but at SWR Drivers have a set number of guaranteed FDW even if all the turns are covered, probably unique to SWR though!

I love little quirks like that. Interesting to hear the differing ways each depot works.

 

[manmikey]

These TOCs seem to enter death spirals imo. Once driver numbers reach critical levels, replenishing them becomes ever more difficult. The more trainees needed, the more mentors, instructors and assessors are needed.

If only they kept on top of numbers on an ongoing basis and focused on expediting trainee programmes.

You are absolutely right, TOCs lose control of their service in the way you describe, yet when a TOC is on top of numbers it it to is also criticised for being over established as GA is on this very thread.

If only the ASLEF & TOCs were run by the experts on the forum here the railway would be perfect.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I hear a lot of people singing the praises of Greater Anglia’s service, compared to 10 years ago, so they must be doing something right.

 

[manmikey]

RDW agreements...so much ire

These agreements are mutually beneficial for both TOC & Drivers, the details may differ TOC by TOC but ingeneral.....

The TOC benefits as it is able to release Driving instructors and trainees because with a RDW agreement there are staff volunteering to cover the shift of the Di & trainee. Recruitment & training can be planned ahead.

The Traincrew benefit in having a number of guaranteed leave days available each day because there are staff volunteering to cover.

RDW agreements are just that, an agreement negotiated and signed by ASLEF reps & Management.
RDW agreements themselves are very rarely withdraw by TOC or ASLEF as part of pay disputes or negotiations.

The withdrawal of Overtime during industrial action does not terminate the RDW agreement. However management will retaliate by removing the lieu day guarantee.

Just as management can't force staff to work overtime ASLEF can not tell staff to not work time unless there is ballot,

however staff can choose not to volunteer for overtime as happens occasionally for local disputes.

 

[LowLevel]

RDW agreements...so much ire

These agreements are mutually beneficial for both TOC & Drivers, the details may differ TOC by TOC but ingeneral.....

The TOC benefits as it is able to release Driving instructors and trainees because with a RDW agreement there are staff volunteering to cover the shift of the Di & trainee. Recruitment & training can be planned ahead.

The Traincrew benefit in having a number of guaranteed leave days available each day because there are staff volunteering to cover.

RDW agreements are just that, an agreement negotiated and signed by ASLEF reps & Management.
RDW agreements themselves are very rarely withdraw by TOC or ASLEF as part of pay disputes or negotiations.

The withdrawal of Overtime during industrial action does not terminate the RDW agreement. However management will retaliate by removing the lieu day guarantee.

Just as management can't force staff to work overtime ASLEF can not tell staff to not work time unless there is ballot,

however staff can choose not to volunteer for overtime as happens occasionally for local disputes.

I think the point bring made is that to use an example the RMT don't do "RDW agreements" per se for their grades IE the guards and the all other staff they represent, same applies to the other unions. They do withdraw rest day working but only as part of a balloted industrial dispute, otherwise the decision to work overtime or not is always between the employee and the company - albeit usually with a process to make sure it is allocated fairly between staff.

It is a uniquely ASLEF position that their members are banned by default from working rest days unless an agreement is made to the contrary to permit it - the default position in many TOCs is that it is just renewed on a rolling basis but not all. Working a rest day in an ASLEF negotiated grade without an agreement is seen as a serious affront and the TOCs often just don't offer the shifts out at all in those circumstances to prevent further ill feeling.

Personally I have always been of the view that if I want to work overtime that's up to me - it pays for the odd treat here and there - and my union shouldn't get involved with that outside of a dispute. On the other hand ASLEF's position is hardly a secret and all parties know what it is - it also results in some eye watering payments to their members.

 

[scrapy]

Don't know about GTR, but aren't some operators eg Government run Northern actively increasing staffing to reduce reliance on overtime, eg Northern recruiting for over 300 roles

'No experience required': Northern set to recruit more than 300 drivers and conductors across the North of England in 2024

Northern is looking to recruit more than 300 drivers and conductors across the North of England this year.

media.northernrailway.co.uk

These are not new roles they are replacing expected retirements and those moving to other companies.

 

[scouseyb123]

Has Huw Merriman met Mick Whelan yet as he mentioned he was going to at the despatch box??

 

[43066]

Working a rest day in an ASLEF negotiated grade without an agreement is seen as a serious affront and the TOCs often just don't offer the shifts out at all in those circumstances to prevent further ill feeling.

Indeed. I know where we are a few people have accidentally made themselves available for RDW during the RDW bans (it’s easy to lose track). Rather than being allocated a shift, this results in a call from rosters to remind them of the ban!

You say that, but at SWR Drivers have a set number of guaranteed FDW even if all the turns are covered, probably unique to SWR though!

I had heard of that, now that you mention it. I suppose the logic is that it’s supposed to encourage people to volunteer, where otherwise they might not?

 

[Goldfish62]

It is a uniquely ASLEF position that their members are banned by default from working rest days unless an agreement is made to the contrary to permit it - the default position in many TOCs is that it is just renewed on a rolling basis but not all. Working a rest day in an ASLEF negotiated grade without an agreement is seen as a serious affront and the TOCs often just don't offer the shifts out at all in those circumstances to prevent further ill feeling.

Being of a bus industry background I was amazed when I had this confirmed to me recently by a railway friend. I'm used to the concept that working a rest day is no one's business except the person doing it.

But then in the bus industry there are no "committed RDWs" and Sundays are always part of the working week.

 

[12LDA28C]

The railway is 7 days a week, often 24 hours a day or near. Tain drivers regular salary should reflect that as normal, none of this Sunday working 'optional', for example, and enough drivers recruited to man services properly. £600 from Avanti just to be able to run a 'normal' service? Ridiculous.

TOCs that currently don't have Sunday in the working week clearly don't want it, even though it' an ASLEF aspiration, as of course a large number of additional drivers would need to be recruited to cover the additional work. This has been discussed many times on this forum.

That would be far too logical.



At least you at Greater Anglia can be bothered to run a skeleton service on strike days.

What point are you trying to make here? A strike is exactly that. If all ASLEF members are on strike at a TOC then it depends entirely on what agreements are in place to allow Driver Managers or other competent staff to drive trains on a strike day. Hardly a matter of a TOC being 'bothered' or not to run a service.

 

[43066]

Any TOC braving a minimum service level do we know?

Nobody.

Just an update on this, from a quick check online it seems that my operator, along with Avanti West Coast and GTR, have now announced on their websites that the usual ASLEF strike day arrangements will apply: my operator and Avanti will operate no services at all, and GTR won’t run anything other then the small number of Gatwick airport shuttles they usually operate. Does anyone know the position elsewhere?

It does increasingly look as though minimum service levels are dead in the water.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Just an update on this, from a quick check online it seems that my operator, along with Avanti West Coast and GTR, have now announced on their websites that the usual ASLEF strike day arrangements will apply: my operator and Avanti will operate no services at all, and GTR won’t run anything other then the small number of Gatwick airport shuttles they usually operate. Does anyone know the position elsewhere?

It does increasingly look as though minimum service levels are dead in the water.

MSL. Biggest con in recent railway history.

 

[Leaguer]

I'm supposed to be travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Wolverhampton with Crosscountry next friday 5th. I have an advance ticket. Presume i can get to Wolverhampton using the same ticket on Transport for Wales

 

[Carlisle]

MSL. Biggest con in recent railway history.

Are DFT TOCs penalised in any way for not attempting to use MSL? If not it’s understandable why they’d want to avoid the hassle or if they are it must be just a token penalty.

 

[BAFRA77]

Quick question - are there any online route planners that can be set to not include rail routes - was supposed to be going from Worcester to Stone in Staffs on Friday 5th - and would have gotten WMR/AWC/XC services

 

[dk1]

Are DFT TOCs penalised in any way for not attempting to use MSL? If not it’s understandable why they’d want to avoid the hassle or if they are it must be just a token penalty.

Very much doubt it. The government hasn't thought this one through which should come as no surprise to anyone.

 

[trainophile]

Is it fairly safe to presume there won't be any further strikes within say two weeks of these coming April ones? Just wondering whether it's safe to book non-refundable hotel room for 16-18 April.

 

[EZJ]

MSL. Biggest con in recent railway history.

Are you genuinely surprised by this? Everyone who had half a clue said it wouldn't work, it was nothing more than a desperate government trying to look like they were doing something

 

[jettofab]

Thanks for reply.

So despite what has been suggested by a couple of posters, drivers are already as efficient and productive they can be, when weighed up against the risk of late running/disruption/etc.

Well, it depends. Frustrating I know! There probably are productivity gains available at a lot of depots, but they might change from one timetable to the next, they might only become obvious after diagrams have been running for several months. So there is a risk of repeated attempts at productivity gains that have to be undone again when they prove not to work, with the associated costs of that but on the other hand there almost certainly are some that have genuinely been missed and would work. I guess overall the message is that productivity is not a straightforward issue.

 

[12LDA28C]

MSL. Biggest con in recent railway history.

Biggest waste of time and effort more like and most would agree. Plenty on commentators on this very forum predicted it would be unworkable but evidently that conclusion was beyond the feeble grasp of the Government.

 

[Krokodil]

I'm supposed to be travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Wolverhampton with Crosscountry next friday 5th. I have an advance ticket. Presume i can get to Wolverhampton using the same ticket on Transport for Wales

I've seen no mention of ticket acceptance yet, but experience so far is that TfW always do accept on strike days.

Is it fairly safe to presume there won't be any further strikes within say two weeks of these coming April ones? Just wondering whether it's safe to book non-refundable hotel room for 16-18 April.

Should be a pretty safe bet

 

[43066]

Are DFT TOCs penalised in any way for not attempting to use MSL? If not it’s perfectly understandable why they’d want to avoid the hassle or if they are it’s clearly insufficient.

No. There are neither statutory nor contractual obligations on employers to issue work notices. Not that surprising when the government at least partially justified the introduction of MSLs on the basis that TOCs/the industry wanted them, and that they were merely giving them a tool to use if they considered appropriate, as opposed to introducing them as a purely political measure.

This wasn’t strictly true, of course, as evidenced by the fact the TOCs have chosen not to implement them.

 

[Carlisle]

There was certainly quite a considerable body of opinion on here prior to the first strike after the legislation passed, that thought DFT would instruct its TOCs to use MSL .

 

[1D54]

Is it fairly safe to presume there won't be any further strikes within say two weeks of these coming April ones? Just wondering whether it's safe to book non-refundable hotel room for 16-18 April.

Why take such a risk? Just use Booking.com

 

[trainophile]

Why take such a risk? Just use Booking.com

I was on Booking.com! The option for refundable was £6 more than non-refundable. Likewise with Travelodge bookings. However I have now decided not to stay in either hotel, and going somewhere else instead that only involves Merseyrail and TfW, so the strike possibility isn't an issue.

 

[1D54]

Makes total sense.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Is there some sort of strike occurring at Cross Country only also?

 

[Belperpete]

I'm supposed to be travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Wolverhampton with Crosscountry next friday 5th. I have an advance ticket. Presume i can get to Wolverhampton using the same ticket on Transport for Wales

On some previous strike days, TfW have cut their Shrewsbury - Birmingham International services short, presumably to avoid them being overwhelmed. I seem to recall expecting to be able to travel on TfW to Birmingham, only to find that on the day they weren't running beyond Wolverhampton, so had to take the tram to get to Birmingham. I also recall that on one of the later strike days, although they were running to New St, they were non-stop through Wolverhampton.

 

[12LDA28C]

Is there some sort of strike occurring at Cross Country only also?

CrossCountry drivers are on strike on Friday 5th April.