Aslef strikes and OT ban called…

[12LDA28C]

I mean I was finally able to take the pride pendalino it almost makes up for standing freezing on Litchfied for 2 & a half hours the avanti guard was a little bit taken aback when I quoted 28.2 to him for me and the other traveler who decided to stick by me,

*photos of the white PRIDE with a rainbow background, the progress name plate & a pink monkey with a orange carriage with Avanti Pride in the background*

You're easily pleased. Does the interior differ from a normal Pendolino in any way? And what's the relevance of 28.2?

 

[chuff chuff]

The proposed change to Ts & Cs is to introduce unlimited movement on a week of Spare so a driver can pick up any vacant line of work with Rest Day(s) moved accordingly.

Back to the dark ages in other words. No chance.

Mmmmm wouldn't be having that either

 

[pokemonsuper9]

You're easily pleased. Does the interior differ from a normal Pendolino in any way?

Not that I'm aware of.

And what's the relevance of 28.2?

Given you ask for it's relevance you probably know what it is but I'll quote is here for those who don't:

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/3Y9UXuFziljwsGFCUAwKAA/0aa50a101febffda28c070aae2572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

28.2 Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

I assume in the scenario above listed, the strike caused the intended route to be incompletable, so 28.2 comes into effect and any TOC is then obliged to help (within reason).

 

[Travelmonkey]

You're easily pleased. Does the interior differ from a normal Pendolino in any way?

Definitely more rainbowey with diffrent text on the walls in the vain of LGBTQ+ celabration, otherwise its pretty much the same as the rest of the fleet post refurb,

*photo Purple wall white text
" Welcome aboard Progress we couldn't be prouder to stand out. Driving progress means everything to us. We are committed to creating a team that works for everyone at Avanti west coast.

Thats why we've introduced Live Proud, our mission is to build inclusion into our everyday life, from recruitment of staff, development and welfare where determined that everyone will have the opportunity to be themselves we know it's not enough just to say it so we're working with the LGBT+ community to make a difference thar really matters, wherever your headed keep moving forward

LIVE PROUD!"

I assume in the scenario above listed, the strike caused the intended route to be incompletable, so 28.2 comes into effect and any TOC is then obliged to help (within reason).

.indeed that was the clause I was invoking LNWR cancelled 2 trains on the bounce at LTV so decided to reroute to a service more likely to run (and they both did) on the return was just a bog standard EMR 222 & Voyager but though a bit cumbersome in routing it meant I could still enjoy my Saturday plans,

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder how many of the current ASLEF style actions will be called each month until further notice. Every 2 weeks?

 

[Bald Rick]

You're aware that this isn't a dispute between drivers and the TOC that employs them, right?

Technically, the dispute is between the drivers and the TOC that employs them, otherwise the industrial action would be illegal. Thats why all the ballots are listed by TOCs - they are technically separate disputes. Albeit about the same issue.

However I am sure that for most of those involved in the action, they feel that their point of grievance is with Government, not the TOC.

So even if an individual TOC wanted to negotiate with its own employees, they are powerless to do so under the current system?

I do wonder what would happen if a couple of TOCs somehow reached a deal with their local reps that was acceptable to Government, whether those drivers at those TOCs would accept it.

 

[weeklycommuter]

The travelling public absolutely have a right to be of the opinion that the situation needs sorting ASAP so that a reliable train service can run, yes. They don't have the right to demand that drivers or anyone else in the rail industry accept changes to Ts & Cs that would adversely affect their work/life balance and levels of fatigue in a safety-critical role, no.

Did Rail Minister Huw Merriman do anything after this statement to the House of Commons Transport Committee on 6 September 2023 or was it just empty talk?

https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/13592/html

Richard George: Rest-day working has always existed on the railway. It has always been there.
Q68 Jack Brereton: It is more the scale of it.
Richard George: It is the reliance on running the core timetable that becomes a problem. That is the problem.
Huw Merriman: Perhaps I could add this, if it helps. It concerns me. I have commissioned some work in the Department. To take one of Mr Smith’s Chiltern lines, when there is action short of a strike, one of those lines just does not work—Princes Risborough. Therefore, you have lost fare revenue. Obviously, you have inconvenienced the passengers and lost fare revenue. You have the cost of the bus replacement service. I want to see how this is all actually computed.
While there has been an assumption that rest-day working is better because there is bandwidth, it is good for the workforce because they can work overtime and it is good for the train operators because they do not have to recruit as much, I don’t believe that all of the costs have been taken into account, so I have asked what the benefits are financially in having rest-day working, and what the costs are. There are also other provisions. For example, with certain operators, if somebody is off sick, they cannot be covered unless there is rest-day working. If there is no rest-day working agreement, it means they cannot be covered, so you have lost revenue there. I want to see all of that calculated so that I can discuss with Treasury officials whether there is more of a case for employing more drivers. Then you can run operations at all times. A driver is contracted to work 35 hours in a four-day week and is paid an average of £60,000. If the feeling is that the drivers do not want to do beyond that, it is my responsibility as Rail Minister to ensure that we have resilience and enough drivers so that we can work to that model. At the moment, I do not feel we do.

 

[Kernow_Celtic]

Further up thread a poster states they have (sadly) had to cancel a trip including travel, hotel, and no doubt meals, and other associated expenditure. This one example, when magnified country wide shows exactly why this dispute is costing the wider economy massively,particularly the leisure industry and adds further weight to the theory the Government needs to pull its finger out, stop playing ideological games , and offer the drivers the same deal they offered the RMT. It will prove more cost effective for everyone, staff, passengers and tax payers alike.

 

[Krokodil]

Further up thread a poster states they have (sadly) had to cancel a trip including travel, hotel, and no doubt meals, and other associated expenditure. This one example, when magnified country wide shows exactly why this dispute is costing the wider economy massively,particularly the leisure industry and adds further weight to the theory the Government needs to pull its finger out, stop playing ideological games , and offer the drivers the same deal they offered the RMT. It will prove more cost effective for everyone, staff, passengers and tax payers alike.

The gross damage to the economy has previously been stated by the DfT (or one of the ministers) at a select committee.

 

[dk1]

The gross damage to the economy has previously been stated by the DfT (or one of the ministers) at a select committee.

And no surprise this government fail to mention that fact. Easier to brush it under the carpet and focus on union Christmas parties that then spectacularly backfire on them

 

[Starmill]

Indeed, that in a nutshell is the crux of impasse

It is quite something just how big a proportionate difference pay has become between drivers at LNER, SWR, CrossCountry and Avanti West Coast on one side and Northern, Southeastern and West Midlands Trains on the other. That should probably give some clues as to how wildly different hours and conditions are.

 

[baz962]

So.in your own words that all will understand, what exactly will this current few days ASLEF industrial action actually achieve for its members?

Because at the moment it's working. They have offered a raise which most drivers I know would take. But if we had accepted it we would now have had a worsening of terms and conditions and so we strike and so far no changes to the terms. So it's working so far.

I quite agree.

I thought there was a thread saying that they are planning to hand them back.

 

[WSMP]

The quickest way to get the TOCs to back down would be to run a full service, BUT, first,
Come to an arrangement with Revenue Collection that NO barriers are closed and there will be no ticket inspection anywhere.
The cessation of all their income whilst running a full service will do the job quite quickly.

Having 24 hour strikes from mid-day to mid-day the next day will have exactly the opposite effect. You'll lose customers, lose their support, and lose the battle.

Almost all barrier work has been contracted out for decades, those staff are usually below living wage for a modern gang master (sorry, agency) and aren't in any way minded to help our drivers who they see as overpaid (in their eyes). In any case TOCs don't care about revenue, every penny goes straight to DfT now. That's the problem, it's only since the DfT started interfering that everything got heated. The unions have been after nationalisation and so soon as they get government controlling things, members get this, not sure how that protects my interests.

I mean I was finally able to take the pride pendalino it almost makes up for standing freezing on Litchfied for 2 & a half hours the avanti guard was a little bit taken aback when I quoted 28.2 to him for me and the other traveler who decided to stick by me,

*photos of the white PRIDE with a rainbow background, the progress name plate & a pink monkey with a orange carriage with Avanti Pride in the background*

Good luck with 28.2. but there's a loophole if they published an emergency timetable, but if you had purchased a ticket beforehand and had to take a longer route, I'd give delay repay a go. I rode the PRIDE train, I can't remember anything on the inside although I do like the refurbished Standard Class.

 

[Goldfish62]

Further up thread a poster states they have (sadly) had to cancel a trip including travel, hotel, and no doubt meals, and other associated expenditure. This one example, when magnified country wide shows exactly why this dispute is costing the wider economy massively,particularly the leisure industry and adds further weight to the theory the Government needs to pull its finger out, stop playing ideological games , and offer the drivers the same deal they offered the RMT. It will prove more cost effective for everyone, staff, passengers and tax payers alike.

Spot on!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

.....adds further weight to the theory the Government needs to pull its finger out, stop playing ideological games

Will ASLEF also stop playing ideological games at the same time?

 

[6Gman]

Will ASLEF also stop playing ideological games at the same time?

Protecting the terms and conditions of your members might be termed ideological, but it's hardly a "game".

It's why members pay their subs!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Protecting the terms and conditions of your members might be termed ideological, but it's hardly a "game".

It's why members pay their subs!

It was @Kernow_Celtic who introduced the word "game" in his posting to which I made my response.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

I mean I was finally able to take the pride pendalino it almost makes up for standing freezing on Litchfied for 2 & a half hours the avanti guard was a little bit taken aback when I quoted 28.2 to him for me and the other traveler who decided to stick by me,

*photos of the white PRIDE with a rainbow background, the progress name plate & a pink monkey with a orange carriage with Avanti Pride in the background*

That monkey is adorable!!!

 

[6Gman]

It was @Kernow_Celtic who introduced the word "game" in his posting to which I made my response.

In relation to the government; you directed it toward ASLEF.

 

[Krokodil]

Will ASLEF also stop playing ideological games at the same time?

They haven't been. HTH

 

[Facing Back]

Protecting the terms and conditions of your members might be termed ideological, but it's hardly a "game".

It's why members pay their subs!

Whilst I get you point, to be fair - at this stage in a dispute with both sides entrenched, I would argue that it can be called a game. Its not a fun game and its not going to have a winner (rather like Risk games when I was at university) but it shares some features. One side rolls its dice and makes a move. The other side considers for a while, then rolls its own dice and makes its move, and so it progresses.

It is not fun or trivial for anyone involved - but games theory (which is nothing like what I've just described) doesn't require either of these.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Good luck with 28.2. but there's a loophole if they published an emergency timetable, but if you had purchased a ticket beforehand and had to take a longer route, I'd give delay repay a go. I rode the PRIDE train, I can't remember anything on the inside although I do like the refurbished Standard Class.

Trust me my delay repay went in when I arrived at my hotel just under 30 quid back once their back office bods have looked things over.

 

[Sleepy]

It is quite something just how big a proportionate difference pay has become between drivers at LNER, SWR, CrossCountry and Avanti West Coast on one side and Northern, Southeastern and West Midlands Trains on the other. That should probably give some clues as to how wildly different hours and conditions are.

Absolutely this - GA for example lose drivers to MTR, XC and GN (and freight) as the base salary is one of the lowest, and not forgetting it's DCO.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It is quite something just how big a proportionate difference pay has become between drivers at LNER, SWR, CrossCountry and Avanti West Coast on one side and Northern, Southeastern and West Midlands Trains on the other. That should probably give some clues as to how wildly different hours and conditions are.

Indeed, and without wanting to veer too much off topic, the same applies in other grades too.

Guards at Avanti and SWR are on more than 50% more pay than Guards at Northern and TPE (who are two of the lowest paid in the industry).

Avanti and SWR no doubt work more hours or have inferior Ts and Cs and more flexibility than those at Northern and TPE. So why would staff at TPE and Northern agree to a whole host of changes to their contracts which being them more in line with SWR and Avanti for only a 4% increase, when SWR and Avanti are on 50% more to start with. And Avanti and SWR would still get the 4% even if they have to give up hardly anything. At the end of the day you would have staff on similar ts and cs but with some being paid 50% more.

It is exactly why the DfT one size fits all approach doesn't work.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So really, they need to bring back all control "in-house" so that the relevant TOCs have the freedom to set their own T's & C's (and pay).

Why can't the DfT just let go - it's very clear they can't manage anything except send 3 home secretaries to Rwanda ....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why can't the DfT just let go - it's very clear they can't manage anything except send 3 home secretaries to Rwanda ....

Certain strident voices in the rail unions in recent years wanted the end of "basket-case" TOC and overseas "money-grabbers" and gradually more and more TOC became part of the "Operator of Last Resort" scenario. That particular aspiration would bound to see the DfT more involved, yet in your "considered" opinion they should now "let go". Do I surmise that putting the running of the railways in the triumvational grouping of ASLEF, RMT and TSSA remit is the "new way forward".

 

[TheEastAnglian]

Guards at Avanti and SWR are on more than 50% more pay than Guards at Northern and TPE (who are two of the lowest paid in the industry).

Greater Anglia (Anglia Railways) are on less than TPE and Northern and are still paid mid £28k, Anglia Railways Senior Conductors are on £31k. Transport for Wales Guards will soon be on a multi-year pay award taking their base pay to £50k with Sundays inside the working week being the headline change.

I completely agree with you, one size does not fit all and will never work. This is the same across the footplate as well.
In my opinion, there is clearly an ideology within Whitehall to carry on with whatever the ideology is to damage as much as they can and blame everyone else.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In my opinion, there is clearly an ideology within Whitehall to carry on with whatever the ideology is to damage as much as they can and blame everyone else.

Looking on the other side of the coin, that could well be said to be the political ideology of certain rail union executive members.

I completely agree with you, one size does not fit all and will never work. This is the same across the footplate as well.

To borrow a phrase from a well-known book, but suitably amended to fit the above....

"All rail union employed staff are created equal, but some are more equal than others".

 

[Mugby]

I wonder how many of the current ASLEF style actions will be called each month until further notice. Every 2 weeks?

I was wondering the same thing, particularly with regard to Christmas and New Year services. Presumably if no further action is declared by Saturday 16 December, the festive period should remain disruption free?
Will ASLEF be thinking that action over this period would be too damaging to their cause?

 

[DaveHarries]

Personally if I worked for a TOC as a driver I would rather be working, strike or no strike: not being at work would be - to me anyway - extremely boring.

Dave