Aslef strikes and OT ban called…

[M!T]

That's my whole team at work shafted on 8 December for our Christmas meal out. I'd already started driving to work because I was fed up of Northern's lousy way of dealing with issues that cause disruption after paying £7.50 for the privilege of a journey I can make on £4.50 of petrol in half the time.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm just going on statements I have seen/heard while the legislation was going through parliament.
TOCs are only one part, the NR side has to be defined first, to ensure the "40%" of routes are actually available to TOCs.
As a comparison of how legislation is implemented, the EU import regulations were "laid" before we left the EU, but they haven't been "implemented" yet, because the industry is "not ready".
Not to mention any potential legal challenges.

 

[Snow1964]

I thought it was from December, but it could be from the new year.

Says mid December as start date of minimum service levels on DfT website

Minimum service levels for passenger rail during strike action

A consultation on implementing minimum service levels for passenger rail services during periods of strike action.

www.gov.uk

 

[JW4]

as an example passengers from the likes of here in Newcastle travelling to Birmingham, will they end up travelling via LNER/TPE to Doncaster/Leeds then onwards to Sheffield on the Northern services changing there for either Manchester or Leicester. It would likely add another hour depending on connections, so will people accept that or will they look and go, strike day, can't be bothered.

Another way to get from Newcastle to Birmingham is to get a Northern to Carlisle then change at Carlisle for an Avanti to Birmingham

 

[Facing Back]

I'm just going on statements I have seen/heard while the legislation was going through parliament.
TOCs are only one part, the NR side has to be defined first, to ensure the "40%" of routes are actually available to TOCs.
As a comparison of how legislation is implemented, the EU import regulations were "laid" before we left the EU, but they haven't been "implemented" yet, because the industry is "not ready".
Not to mention any legal challenges.

OK I understand.

The latest I have is here.

Minimum service levels for passenger rail: government response and policy approach

www.gov.uk

At the bottom of the document is the NR part. It's the key routes that NR need to keep "fully" open on days when they are taking industrial action. The "40%" doesn't really apply to NR in the same way as it does to TOCs - I'll have to re-read it in detail to recall how the map was arrived at.

The primary legislation was passed and the Minimum Service Act is now law - but not implemented. The secondary legislation (as described in my link) will be brought to parliament "soon" and will then become law. From that point (as I understand it), it is implemented and the obligations on the unions applies on day 1, whether or not they, the TOCs or NR are "ready".

I'm sure that you are quite right and there will be further legal challenges but I think that these will delay the implementation - although they may well impact how effective (or not) the act is at achieving it's objectives.

 

[whoosh]

It's quite reassuring to know that the rail unions are firmly in the 1970s'. It could be a heritage type themed event.

Just a recap, in case you didn't know:
There's been two offers to ASLEF.

The first offer to ASLEF was made in January 2023. This was made one month after a similar offer to RMT.

The question is: Why the wait of a month? Why the inconvenience of a day's strike in January, before this offer was made? I mean what were the Rail Delivery Group actually doing for that month? They knew there was ASLEF strike action in January 2023. They had worked out an offer to make to RMT, and they knew that ASLEF had been asking for talks for more than a year.
Did they not think to make the offer earlier? As it was pretty much the same as the RMT offer.
(**Also, see below)


This first offer was made before any talks took place by the way, despite ASLEF asking for talks for a whole year beforehand. It's not like RDG hadn't had time to come up with something.

But no. Let there be a strike in January 2023. Let everyone be inconvenienced. Then make an offer.

Hold on though... Haven't had any talks yet (even though ASLEF gave been asking for a whole year - remember?)


Talks....


Then the second offer (after talks looked like they were progressing well) WORSE than the first offer.

But yeah... the unions right? The 1970's, yeah?

Not the Government instructing the Train Operating Companies to not negotiate pay and conditions with their own employees.

I mean, it wouldn't be Government not being reasonable would it? Ever?
No!!

Was only quoting what was written on the letters to reballot members which have been posted on Twitter which make no mention of Terms & Conditons, only pay.

Even the ASLEF press releases when they did the last round of strikes only mentioned pay.

The dispute started as a pay dispute. It is a dispute over pay for the 2022 and 2023 pay awards, so that is what is on ballot papers.

You are right though, that it hasn't been communicated very well at all, that the Rail Delivery Group (under instruction from the Government), introduced changes to Terms & Conditions to the dispute. And it is these changes (or threats to these terms) that are the sticking point for most drivers - over the pay rise on offer).

The dispute has developed into fighting changes to terms and conditions for a one size fits all year two rise. (It needs to be a negotiation on a TOC by TOC basis, **see below again.) ASLEF'S PR hasn't developed beyond the initial stage of the dispute it seems.

Most of the press releases have purely mentioned (time and time again) the fact that "our members have not had a payrise since 2019"... to the unknowing public that's all this is about, its all strikes are ever about is pay. "We" know about our terms and conditions.....Joe public does not, and unfortunately I think ASLEF have fallen into that trap by not getting the right message out there since day 1.

Agreed.
The initial dispute was over pay, and the total block on any talks about pay.
Then, Terms & Conditions were introduced as part of the pay offer.
These significant changes, and the fact that some TOCs wouldn't be changing as much, but others a lot - all for 4% in year two regardless, has not been communicated to the general public well at all. Even industry publications - railway magazines etc. have not fully been in receipt of the facts of the dispute in this regard. ASLEF has not been pushing the facts out in it's Public Relations very well in relation to terms and conditions.


**Why have the RDG now made a more reasonable offer to RMT, unlocking the dispute by making any changes to terms and conditions be on a TOC by TOC basis for 2023, but yet curiously, a needless delay, again, when dealing with ASLEF?

 

[Goldfish62]

As a reminder, ASLEF's constitution, unlike that of the RMT and others, does not allow them to put offers to members that they cannot recommend.

So there's only three ways out of this, apart from breaking the constitution:
1. Receiving an offer from RDG that can be recommended.
2. Changing the constitution to allow members to vote on any offer, not just those that are recommended.
3. Recommending the current offer.

I can't think of any other way out of this.

Peter

 

[Snow1964]

OK I understand.

The latest I have is here.

Minimum service levels for passenger rail: government response and policy approach

www.gov.uk

At the bottom of the document is the NR part. It's the key routes that NR need to keep "fully" open on days when they are taking industrial action. The "40%" doesn't really apply to NR in the same way as it does to TOCs - I'll have to re-read it in detail to recall how the map was arrived at.

The primary legislation was passed and the Minimum Service Act is now law - but not implemented. The secondary legislation (as described in my link) will be brought to parliament "soon" and will then become law. From that point (as I understand it), it is implemented and the obligations on the unions applies on day 1, whether or not they, the TOCs or NR are "ready".

I'm sure that you are quite right and there will be further legal challenges but I think that these will delay the implementation - although they may well impact how effective (or not) the act is at achieving it's objectives.

Seems was announced to Parliament on 8th November (but don't know Parliament procedures, so not sure if that means laid for

Passenger rail: minimum service levels

Regulations laid to address strike action in passenger rail.

www.gov.uk

 

[Facing Back]

Seems was announced to Parliament on 8th November (but don't know Parliament procedures, so not sure if that means laid for

Passenger rail: minimum service levels

Regulations laid to address strike action in passenger rail.

www.gov.uk

Cheers. "Laid before" just means that the document was formally sent to Parliament. Huw Merriman says he hopes the industry "can make use of it" in early December but that is subject to getting it through Parliament - I don't know what the timetable for that is - it must be imminent although they might be a bit distracted at the moment.

 

[Harpers Tate]

To most people the railways are already an irrelevance.

Indeed. It seems to me quite possible - perhaps inevitable - that the "most" proportion will increase. Job losses incoming?

 

[Howardh]

So instead of all-out for 24/48 hrs, this is now different TOC's out on different days spread over a week, so if (say) Avanti are out on Sunday, there's still an option to travel London/Manchester via Northern and London Northwestern via Crewe albeit slower EXCEPT I think LNW come under "West Midlands Trains" who are also out??

 

[Midlands5678]

Every driver I've spoken to would accept the same offer as RMT - 5% (which is about 7% below inflation for last year) no strings, as would I.

The government know this. They are the ones to blame here.

 

[Starmill]

That's my whole team at work shafted on 8 December for our Christmas meal out. I'd already started driving to work because I was fed up of Northern's lousy way of dealing with issues that cause disruption after paying £7.50 for the privilege of a journey I can make on £4.50 of petrol in half the time.

The only good thing about working in a city with an absolutely dreadful late evening rail service is that people already know they have to make arrangements for long distance taxi rides, lifts, or hotels for the night to come to a Christmas meal regardless of the industrial action or not.

 

[JonathanH]

Every driver I've spoken to would accept the same offer as RMT - 5% (which is about 7% below inflation for last year) no strings, as would I.

This of course is the 2022 pay award, rather than the 2023 one. 5% is broadly in line with CPI at the end of 2021. The 2023 award, which isn't even on the table at present, should be the one compared with inflation for last year

 

[Starmill]

Another way to get from Newcastle to Birmingham is to get a Northern to Carlisle then change at Carlisle for an Avanti to Birmingham

Indeed, although I would expect difficulties using Avanti West Coast during the overtime ban.

 

[robrymond]

I have prebooked advance tickets from Crewe to New Street for 3rd December. Would I be able to travel via Stoke on Trent using EMR and XC to Birmingham instead during the strike action. Will Cross Country even serve New Street if they are the only operator due to the possibility of overcrowding? I know TFW usually stop short at Wolverhampton during strike action.

 

[Starmill]

I have prebooked advance tickets from Crewe to New Street for 3rd December. Would I be able to travel via Stoke on Trent using EMR and XC to Birmingham instead during the strike action. Will Cross Country even serve New Street if they are the only operator due to the possibility of overcrowding? I know TFW usually stop short at Wolverhampton during strike action.

If those services are running, there probably will be ticket acceptance, however, it may be unadvertised. If it is you would be best to go to the station and ask if you can use the EMR and XC services.

 

[1D54]

Disputes and Prosecutions thread could be on overtime with folk taking all sorts of unauthorised routes to get from A to B.

 

[Howardh]

Disputes and Prosecutions thread could be on overtime with folk taking all sorts of unauthorised routes to get from A to B.

If their original service is cancelled they should get a full refund (??) and if they are quick might be able to get advances for the services that are running. Someone trying to get from London to Manchester on the original Avanti might be pushing it if they use that ticket from King'sX to Manchester via Leeds!!

But the TOC's need to make it clear where, and where not, there is ticket acceptance.

 

[footprints]

Indeed, although I would expect difficulties using Avanti West Coast during the overtime ban.

I wouldn't. Drivers haven't been working overtime on Avanti for some time.

 

[Starmill]

I wouldn't. Drivers haven't been working overtime on Avanti for some time.

Indeed, such that they have already been forced to withdraw some services for December even before any industrial action. It's a little bit naive to expect no changes.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

What is the logic on two separate strike days for Govia Thameslink Railway?

Surely for ASLEF it simply reduces the impacts of their strikes, as there will be Brighton Mainline services running on both days. Though I guess especially on the day when Southern is running and Thameslink not, they are going to be absolutely rammed with the way that the timetable has been recasted to make the majority Thameslink.

 

[Jamesrob637]

What is the logic on two separate strike days for Govia Thameslink Railway?

Surely for ASLEF it simply reduces the impacts of their strikes, as there will be Brighton Mainline services running on both days. Though I guess especially on the day when Southern is running and Thameslink not, they are going to be absolutely rammed with the way that the timetable has been recasted to make the majority Thameslink.

No individual TOC is striking on more than one day, from what I understand of the BBC article.

 

[Dan G]

The dispute about is about pay. An offer has been made to ASLEF that is unacceptable due to the changes to terms and conditions included in the offer. That offer with no changes to terms and conditions would be accepted. So the dispute is about pay, but it’s the changes to terms and conditions that are why it hasn’t been accepted.

Good explanation, thank you.

 

[trundlewagon]

Every driver I've spoken to would accept the same offer as RMT - 5% (which is about 7% below inflation for last year) no strings, as would I.

The government know this. They are the ones to blame here.

Everyone knows (staff, government, anyone who has been paying attention) we're going to get the same as the RMT but these clowns are intent on dragging it out a few weeks longer and causing a bit more damage to the economy before they admit to it.

 

[OneOfThe48]

What is the logic on two separate strike days for Govia Thameslink Railway?

Surely for ASLEF it simply reduces the impacts of their strikes, as there will be Brighton Mainline services running on both days. Though I guess especially on the day when Southern is running and Thameslink not, they are going to be absolutely rammed with the way that the timetable has been recasted to make the majority Thameslink.

Maximum drama as they will need to write two new timetables and sets of diagrams to remove the need for staff to travel on Thameslink or Southern services where that one is on strike.

Who knows what they'll do for the stations that just have Southern or Thameslink services during ASLEF overtime bans

 

[footprints]

Indeed, such that they have already been forced to withdraw some services for December even before any industrial action. It's a little bit naive to expect no changes.

Why would an overtime ban mean further changes for Avanti when drivers aren't working overtime there anyway? It's a little bit naive to think that announcing you're withdrawing something at other TOCs, that's already been withdrawn at Avanti, will make much, if any, difference to them.

 

[Marton]

Just looked at the SI laid before parliament.

Bizarrely a priority route shows Darlington to Saltburn via Teesside Airport and Middlesbrough.

Darlington, Saltburn and Middlesbrough makes sense, but it looks like the civil servant concerned saw airport and assumed priority.

 

[DunsBus]

For the fourth year running the public face having their festive travel plans disrupted. Two years because of Covid restrictions and the other two because either or both of the two Micks have decided to play Scrooge.

So much for the season of goodwill....!

 

[Starmill]

Why would an overtime ban mean further changes for Avanti when drivers aren't working overtime there anyway? It's a little bit naive to think that announcing you're withdrawing something at other TOCs, that's already been withdrawn at Avanti, will make much, if any, difference to them.

Same reasons all industrial action short of a strike has unforseen consequences, consequences you generally don't experience from the mere absence of an agreement on rest day work. In any case we know for sure that Avanti have insufficient drivers to cover their diagrams during December because if they did they wouldn't have announced they were withdrawing some services anyway.

Avanti West Coast will also be much more likely to experience disruption when WMT, CrossCountry, Northern and TransPennine Express are disrupted because their staff are unable to pass or get to work on them.