Attempting Prosecution

[thatjamiebloke]

Not sure if this is the right place for this issue, but here goes.

In April I tried to travel from Stevenage to London oon LNER, but there was an issue at the turnstiles preventing me from passing through and resulting in me missing my train. When I asked a member of staff about it she advised me to "jump on the next one, it'll be fine". Which I did, the next being Thameslink in two minutes and the next LNER being an hour away.

On the train the ticket inspector checked my ticket and tried to charge me the penalty fare (which was in excess of £30) but I didn't have that with me at that time. She then printed off the slip. When I explained to the ticket inspector what had happened at Stevenage station and what the other member of staff said to me, her reply was "doesn't matter you got caught".

I noticed on the slip it said that it was issued at Weleyn Garden City, the problem there is the train didn't stop at Welwyn Garden City. We were nowhere near there. We were so far away from Welwyn Garden City that she had to get off the train at Finsbury Park to finish the process of giving me the slip. The train we were on even left her on the side of the platform and continued it's journey to Kings Cross without her.

The slip itself did not state how much she tried to charge as a penalty, when I asked her about this (about five times in order to get a clear answer from her) she said that Thameslink will write to me about appealing or paying the fine and that letter will have the amount on it.

About two weeks later I get a letter in the mail threatening to take me to Magistrates Court, no amount, no appeal process and it still said we were in Welwyn Garden City when the incident occurred. They just wanted to get my side of the story, which I gave them. They sent another letter since then saying they are continuing with the court process.

I've since spoken to the rail ombudsman who directed me to a website where I can appeal or pay the fine proposed by the reference number Thameslink have put on the slip and following letters don't work. Even using a link on the Thameslink website doesn't work with the reference number they've given.

It doesn't seem right, right?

They don't seem to be following the standard pay or appeal process. Regardless of the false information issued. They've just jumped straight to the court process.

If anyone can offer any insight on this, I would be very grateful.

 

[skyhigh]

She then printed off the slip.

Would you be able to upload a redacted copy of the slip so we can see what you were issued with?

 

[Snow1964]

So just to be clear, was your ticket any operator, or LNER only

And were you at departure station in sufficient time, but couldn’t access the relevant platform for your booked train due to some sort of station blockage, so were told to get the next train by a member of railway staff (which is what you did).

This will determine the answers and approach, as travelling with instructions from a railway official is different to you choosing to get a train which your ticket wasn’t valid on.

Again just to be clear, are you saying you have been given a reference, but that doesn’t seem to be valid for purpose of lodging an appeal

 

[thatjamiebloke]

Would you be able to upload a redacted copy of the slip so we can see what you were issued with?

So just to be clear, was your ticket any operator, or LNER only

And were you at departure station in sufficient time, but couldn’t access the relevant platform for your booked train due to some sort of station blockage, so were told to get the next train by a member of railway staff (which is what you did).

This will determine the answers and approach, as travelling with instructions from a railway official is different to you choosing to get a train which your ticket wasn’t valid on.

I was told by the member of staff at the turnstiles to just jump on the next one. She didn’t specify what operator it had to be. She gave the impression that it didn’t matter.

 

[methecooldude]

Others may correct me, but if Thameslink have a crew depot at Welwyn, then that will be printed on that ticket as that's where the Inspector (or should I say, the ticket machine the Inspector is using) is based

 

[skyhigh]

Others may correct me, but if Thameslink have a crew depot at Welwyn, then that will be printed on that ticket as that's where the Conductor (or should I say, the ticket machine the Conductor is using) is based

No that's not correct. And they don't have conductors.

 

[Snow1964]

You might want to redo the photo, as your address is visible on letter on right, I suggest you redact that too

 

[methecooldude]

No that's not correct. And they don't have conductors.

Just edited to say Inspector instead

 

[185143]

Crop that image, part of the letter to the right is visible with most of your address in it.

 

[skyhigh]

Just edited to say Inspector instead

It's still not correct. There is a field to select the location the report was made, and Welwyn Garden City has been chosen.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

On the face of it, the inspector should merely have charged an excess for the difference between the LNER ticket and the Thameslink ticket.

This is from a different thread, taken from the Knowledgebase app:

General Principles
The Excess fare to charge is the difference between the price of the ticket held and the price of the cheapest ticket(s) available for immediate travel on the chosen service.

The cheapest available ticket(s) suitable for the journey being made may vary, depending on the specific train, time of day or day of week on which customers wish to travel. The cheapest ticket could be an Anytime, Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket.

 

[skyhigh]

They don't seem to be following the standard pay or appeal process. Regardless of the false information issued. They've just jumped straight to the court process.

From the photo you've attached you haven't been issued a penalty fare, you've been reported for prosecution. I assume they took you saying you didn't have the money for the penalty fare as a refusal to accept it and instead issued this report.

I noticed on the slip it said that it was issued at Weleyn Garden City, the problem there is the train didn't stop at Welwyn Garden City. We were nowhere near there. We were so far away from Welwyn Garden City that she had to get off the train at Finsbury Park to finish the process of giving me the slip. The train we were on even left her on the side of the platform and continued it's journey to Kings Cross without her.

The location you were reported doesn't really change the facts of the matter - the start and end stations were correct. I imagine the report submitted would have made it clear the report was issued on a train - but you don't get the option to select 'on train' as a location.

It isn't possible to be issued a Penalty Fare retrospectively, so the options from here are they drop the matter, they offer you an out of court settlement, or they take you to court.

On the face of it, the inspector should merely have charged an excess for the difference between the LNER ticket and the Thameslink ticket.

This is from a different thread, taken from the Knowledgebase app:

That quote is regarding a change of route excess, not a change of Operator. It also could have been an LNER-only Advance.

 

[thatjamiebloke]

You might want to redo the photo, as your address is visible on letter on right, I suggest you redact that too

Good catch thank you for that

 

[Feuillesmortes]

It's nonsense that the slip says "Offenders details" [sic] when there is no conviction.

What is an offender?
Offender is a legal term used in the context of criminal law to refer to a person convicted of committing a crime or offense.

 

[methecooldude]

It's still not correct. There is a field to select the location the report was made, and Welwyn Garden City has been chosen.

OK, thanks for correcting that one

 

[furlong]

And what ticket exactly did you possess (still got it? upload photo?), what was the nature of the delay at the barrier and how long? Had the person at the barrier seen your ticket before telling you to jump on the next train? If asked to provide a witness statement, do you think they will state that they provided verbal authority for you to take the Thameslink train?

 

[Feuillesmortes]

That quote is regarding a change of route excess, not a change of Operator.

Thanks for clarifying, it's a subtlety which kind of escapes me but I will read up.

 

[thatjamiebloke]

And what ticket exactly did you possess (still got it? upload photo?), what was the nature of the delay at the barrier and how long? Had the person at the barrier seen your ticket before telling you to jump on the next train? If asked to provide a witness statement, do you think they will state that they provided verbal authority for you to take the Thameslink train?

I had a standard LNER ticket on my phone with the QR code.
The delay was a group of girls couldn’t figure out how to use the turnstile with their tickets I think. The member of staff did sort it out but it meant I got to the platform as the train was leaving.
I showed the member of staff my phone which is when she said get the next one.
In terms of getting a statement I wouldn’t like to say.
I think Stevenage station is a primarily Thameslink run station. So she would work for them.

 

[skyhigh]

Thanks for clarifying, it's a subtlety which kind of escapes me but I will read up.

An old thread but might be of use: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/change-of-route-excess-or-new-ticket.111484/

 

[Haywain]

I think Stevenage station is a primarily Thameslink run station

It is entirely operated by GTR with no LNER staff presence.

 

[furlong]

I had a standard LNER ticket on my phone with the QR code.

From where to where? Single or return (out or back)? What type? How long before the journey was it purchased?
As it's on your phone you can at least produce it as evidence.

The delay was a group of girls couldn’t figure out how to use the turnstile with their tickets I think. The member of staff did sort it out but it meant I got to the platform as the train was leaving.

Again, how long? 10 seconds? 10 minutes? Something in between? Was it staff on the platform you asked, different from the person dealing with the group?

The point here is, whether your story is likely to attract any sympathy, or whether it looks like you knew you were in the wrong and took a chance.

I showed the member of staff my phone which is when she said get the next one.

For future reference in a situation like this always ask the question about how you should respond if another member of staff challenges it later on your journey. This puts the member of staff on the spot if they know they are bending the rules beyond what they are supposed to and it gives you assurance that it will be OK.

Did you know your ticket was not intended for use on that train? Did you ensure the member of staff also knew that before accepting their authority to board that train? I.e. were they fully informed or is it possible they hadn't noticed it was LNER-only?

The exact ticket type leads to working out the cost difference and potential refund situation if the train company's view prevails.

In practical terms, this train company will often settle out-of-court. There are a lot of grey areas of uncertainty here - the question first is whether or not there is a plausible defence to potential criminal charges..

 

[Hadders]

Stevenage is my local station so I am well versed in what happens there.

This is an unfortunate situation and one I have predicted would cause problems since the ridiculous LNER only tickets were introduced.

There are two types of tickets available from Stevenage: LNER only and Any Permitted (i.e. valid on any operator). You purchased an LNER only ticket which is a little cheaper than an Any Permitted. LNER trains are slightly faster but they only operate an irregularly spaced 1 or 2 trains an hour., non-stop to Kings Cross. Thameslink are the principle operator of trains between Stevenage and London, they have fast trains every 15 minutes that call at Finsbury Park and then St Pancras as well as semi-fast trains to Kings Cross every 30 minutes and the Hertford Loop stoppers, also every 30 minutes.

Unfortunately you missed your train and although staff told you to travel on the next service, this was a Thameslink service on which your ticket wasn't valid. I suspect the staff at the station didn't check your ticket to see if it was valuid on Thameslink. This means you didn't have a valid ticket which is why you encountered an issue with the revenue inspector onboard. It could be argued that staff gave you permission to travel but sadly this is going to be practically impossible to prove, it's the 'but the man on the platform said...' argument.

On the face of it, the inspector should merely have charged an excess for the difference between the LNER ticket and the Thameslink ticket.

This is from a different thread, taken from the Knowledgebase app:

Unfortunately an operator specific ticket cannot be excessed to an Any Permitted ticket so this isn't an option in this case.

It seems that you were offered a Penalty Fare by the revenue inspector but declined to pay this. Penalty Fares cannot be issued retrospectively which is why the train company has written to you, saying that they have received a report and are considering prosecuting you. You've also spoken to the Rail Ombudsman who appear to have been no help.

We could do with knowing eactly what their latest letter says, can you upload it with personal details redacted? If it still possible to pay the administrative settlement to keep the matter out of court then I suggest you pay it asap to stop the matter ending up in court. Once the matter is concluded then I would consider making a complaint to Themeslink customer services about what has happaned. You might get lucky and send you some vouchers.

 

[furlong]

It could be argued that staff gave you permission to travel but sadly this is going to be practically impossible to prove, it's the 'but the man on the platform said...' argument.

I'd say difficult but not impossible as it would only have to be proved to have been more likely than not, though there are still plenty of potential obstacles to navigate around.

Unfortunately an operator specific ticket cannot be excessed to an Any Permitted ticket so this isn't an option in this case.

Another reminder of how scandalous it is that decades after privatisation this problem is still being ignored by the bodies that should be representing passenger interests. It's about time the docile RDG realised it was in their own long-term interest and tackled it head on. Even if they only did it for digital tickets (charge difference processed as refund+new issue) that would be progress.

It seems that you were offered a Penalty Fare by the revenue inspector but declined to pay this.

Which would constitute more sharp practice as neither an ability to pay anything on the spot nor acceptance of the penalty should constitute a relevant factor in a decision to impose one on someone presenting a ticket they reasonably believed to be valid. Nothing needs to be paid on the spot any more.

 

[Snow1964]

What irks me (as a non railway employee) about this sort of case, is the customer having bought a ticket, is left to untangle it, whilst threat of prosecution is implied

1) The customer shouldn’t be held liable because they missed their train due to someone not installing sufficient gates
2) The customer is being penalised because staff were unable to process and clear gate congestion
3) A person in uniform gives instruction to get next train, but customer is expected to know if they overstepped their authority (really any error should be dealt with by some subsequent training, not dragging paying customer into it with court threats)
4) Ticket Inspector decides customer was wrong, and because they have apparently been given permission to get next train, obviously decline to pay again, or pay a penalty
5) A MG11 (a non police witness statement) was issued, something that has to be followed up with the customer, not the gate line staff at Stevenage
6) Customer is harassed to be guilty, seemingly without being told they have checked with gate line staff (the don’t check evidence first approach)

All seems wrong, now I realise that a tough approach will be needed against ticketless individuals or deliberate short fares etc, but this sledgehammer approach to someone with a ticket from start to finish station due to a mismatch in validity needs to be taken as a let’s explain (and get customers version too) rather than lumped in with big criminals as an opener

 

[Hadders]

What irks me (as a non railway employee) about this sort of case, is the customer having bought a ticket, is left to untangle it, whilst threat of prosecution is implied

1) The customer shouldn’t be held liable because they missed their train due to someone not installing sufficient gates
2) The customer is being penalised because staff were unable to process and clear gate congestion
3) A person in uniform gives instruction to get next train, but customer is expected to know if they overstepped their authority (really any error should be dealt with by some subsequent training, not dragging paying customer into it with court threats)
4) Ticket Inspector decides customer was wrong, and because they have apparently been given permission to get next train, obviously decline to pay again, or pay a penalty
5) A MG11 (a non police witness statement) was issued, something that has to be followed up with the customer, not the gate line staff at Stevenage
6) Customer is harassed to be guilty, seemingly without being told they have checked with gate line staff (the don’t check evidence first approach)

All seems wrong, now I realise that a tough approach will be needed against ticketless individuals or deliberate short fares etc, but this sledgehammer approach to someone with a ticket from start to finish station due to a mismatch in validity needs to be taken as a let’s explain (and get customers version too) rather than lumped in with big criminals as an opener

What I didn’t say in my post is that there is a responsibility on passengers to arrive in good time. It takes less than 30 seconds to walk from the gate line to the platform at Stevenage. I’m sure we’ve all caught a train with moments to spare but the OP must’ve left things rather tight. Appreciate that they were delayed by someone having difficulty getting through the gate line ahead of them but I’d be surprised if this caused a delay of more than a minute. A minute in this sort of situation always feels like 10 minutes though….

 

[yorkie]

Not sure if this is the right place for this issue, but here goes.

In April I tried to travel from Stevenage to London oon LNER, but there was an issue at the turnstiles preventing me from passing through and resulting in me missing my train. When I asked a member of staff about it she advised me to "jump on the next one, it'll be fine". Which I did, the next being Thameslink in two minutes and the next LNER being an hour away.

On the train the ticket inspector checked my ticket and tried to charge me the penalty fare (which was in excess of £30) but I didn't have that with me at that time. She then printed off the slip. When I explained to the ticket inspector what had happened at Stevenage station and what the other member of staff said to me, her reply was "doesn't matter you got caught".

I noticed on the slip it said that it was issued at Weleyn Garden City, the problem there is the train didn't stop at Welwyn Garden City. We were nowhere near there. We were so far away from Welwyn Garden City that she had to get off the train at Finsbury Park to finish the process of giving me the slip. The train we were on even left her on the side of the platform and continued it's journey to Kings Cross without her.

The slip itself did not state how much she tried to charge as a penalty, when I asked her about this (about five times in order to get a clear answer from her) she said that Thameslink will write to me about appealing or paying the fine and that letter will have the amount on it.

About two weeks later I get a letter in the mail threatening to take me to Magistrates Court, no amount, no appeal process and it still said we were in Welwyn Garden City when the incident occurred. They just wanted to get my side of the story, which I gave them. They sent another letter since then saying they are continuing with the court process.

I've since spoken to the rail ombudsman who directed me to a website where I can appeal or pay the fine proposed by the reference number Thameslink have put on the slip and following letters don't work. Even using a link on the Thameslink website doesn't work with the reference number they've given.

It doesn't seem right, right?

They don't seem to be following the standard pay or appeal process. Regardless of the false information issued. They've just jumped straight to the court process.

If anyone can offer any insight on this, I would be very grateful.

If the matter goes to court, you may want to contact Penman Sedgwick:

Fare Evasion - Penman Sedgwick

penmansedgwick.com

I have no connections with them however I am aware of forum members who said they were very happy with the outcomes.

Some of their case examples are familiar to me as incidents that were initially brought up on the forum.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[kristiang85]

What I didn’t say in my post is that there is a responsibility on passengers to arrive in good time. It takes less than 30 seconds to walk from the gate line to the platform at Stevenage. I’m sure we’ve all caught a train with moments to spare but the OP must’ve left things rather tight. Appreciate that they were delayed by someone having difficulty getting through the gate line ahead of them but I’d be surprised if this caused a delay of more than a minute. A minute in this sort of situation always feels like 10 minutes though….

I one missed a train at Woking because there was a couple engaged in a discussion with the bloke at the wide gate (I had a big piece of luggage with me). I asked if I could nip through as my train was pulling onto the platform, but he told me "I'm dealing with these people, wait your turn". Ultimately I missed the train as they took a couple more minutes. Luckily it was an anytime ticket, but it was my time wasted which irked me somewhat (and yes when I complained to him that I'd missed the train he told me I should have been there earlier... I was too tired to argue after that).

I was in the middle of a journey and had nipped out of the station to get a coffee round the corner between trains - is it really expected that a passenger comes 10 minutes early to go through the 100m walk (in my instance) from the entrance of the station to the platform when they already hold a ticket? (10 minutes being the requisite time I think). I understand if a ticket needs to be purchased, but the OP already had one.

 

[Hadders]

There’s no requirement to turn up 10 minutes early but it’s clearly unwise to leave it so late that a delay of a minute causes you to miss a train.

Of course you can leave less time, you could rely on running to the platform (which would be very unwise) but you can’t really complain if you end up missing your train because you leave it too tight.

 

[jon0844]

If this was an e-ticket, many gatelines only had one barcode reader on each side (thus forcing you to use just the one gate, even though Stevenage has many). However, Stevenage should now have barcode readers on every gate now.