ATW December 2014 timetable out to stakeholders

[merlodlliw]

Yes - I wondered if there's some technical reason that the LHCS cannot/do not stop at Abergele & Pensarn.
But then on the last few Saturdays, trains 1K52 & 1D74 [Gerald's unadvertised little run out to Crewe] stopped at Abergele in both directions.

problem may be to do with the down platform at Abergele? LHCS stops on the up platform on the return from Holyhead,or just timings,Rhyl is similar with a switch from the main down line,but gets a stop,Rhyl of course serves a bigger catchment area, however I don't recall, Runcorn West/Frodsham/Helsby or Abergele having down platforms shortened.Geralds stock is also four coach. So I presume its timings from Dec 2014. cutting out small catchment stations.

 

[PHILIPE]

Isn't that a fourth platform?

I was wondering whether the third platform which was recently built may well now be able to accommodate ATW services and whether there was only no paths because of the absence of that third platform, never mind the fourth platform which doubtless will make operating Manchester Airport station easier.

It would be pointless for ATW to incur extra time by going in and out of Manchester Airport and also when there would be little, if any, passengers using it. There are enough services from Crewe serving the Airport and anybody south of Crewe would use Birmingham or further on Cardiff or Bristol Airports.

 

[SprinterMan]

problem may be to do with the down platform at Abergele? LHCS stops on the up platform on the return from Holyhead,or just timings,Rhyl is similar with a switch from the main down line,but gets a stop,Rhyl of course serves a bigger catchment area, however I don't recall, Runcorn West/Frodsham/Helsby or Abergele having down platforms shortened.Geralds stock is also four coach. So I presume its timings from Dec 2014. cutting out small catchment stations.

I have made a PDF of the M-F North Wales Coast timetable and cleared up the layout a bit. If I am allowed to, I will happily upload it on here

Adam

 

[merlodlliw]

I have made a PDF of the M-F North Wales Coast timetable and cleared up the layout a bit. If I am allowed to, I will happily upload it on here

Adam

Please put it up Adam, I am also very concerned why ATW have left out BHO services from the consultative timetables,which effects the Chester/Shrewsbury line in a big way.

It would be pointless for ATW to incur extra time by going in and out of Manchester Airport and also when there would be little, if any, passengers using it. There are enough services from Crewe serving the Airport and anybody south of Crewe would use Birmingham or further on Cardiff or Bristol Airports.

Orcats revenue I imagine, however ATW will have a big job getting people from North Wales to use the train to the Airport, In Wrexham a taxi taking up to five costs £40 each way and takes well under an hour,with good connections by rail you can double the time and have to change at either Chester or Crewe,awkward with luggage.

 

[Greenback]

It would be pointless for ATW to incur extra time by going in and out of Manchester Airport and also when there would be little, if any, passengers using it. There are enough services from Crewe serving the Airport and anybody south of Crewe would use Birmingham or further on Cardiff or Bristol Airports.

I'd use it. Manchester has a much wider choice of flights than the other airports you mention, particularly long haul. A direct train from south Wales and the borders would make the airport more competitive with Heathrow and Gatwick time wise.

Orcats revenue I imagine, however ATW will have a big job getting people from North Wales to use the train to the Airport, In Wrexham a taxi taking up to five costs £40 each way and takes well under an hour,with good connections by rail you can double the time and have to change at either Chester or Crewe,awkward with luggage.

Luggage can be a problem when changing trains. This is partly why I think that airport trains will be pretty popular on the Marches route! At the minute, changing at Crewe or Piccadilly is a disincentive for me to use the train to Manchester Airport.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It would be pointless for ATW to incur extra time by going in and out of Manchester Airport and also when there would be little, if any, passengers using it. There are enough services from Crewe serving the Airport and anybody south of Crewe would use Birmingham or further on Cardiff or Bristol Airports.

Airports don't work like that.
Plenty of Midlands folk (notably Shrewsbury, Telford, Stoke) use Manchester.
It has a far wider catchment than Birmingham/Bristol/Cardiff/Leeds/Liverpool.
The Llandudno trains currently sit nearly an hour in Mayfield siding waiting to return west.

 

[SprinterMan]

Please put it up Adam, I am also very concerned why ATW have left out BHO services from the consultative timetables,which effects the Chester/Shrewsbury line in a big way.



Orcats revenue I imagine, however ATW will have a big job getting people from North Wales to use the train to the Airport, In Wrexham a taxi taking up to five costs £40 each way and takes well under an hour,with good connections by rail you can double the time and have to change at either Chester or Crewe,awkward with luggage.

Here is the new timetable I have highlighted all the Loco-hauled trains and removed the duplicates (The FX/FO trains that run at identical times to each other) and tidied it up a bit. Hope this is useful to people

Adam

 

[merlodlliw]

Here is the new timetable I have highlighted all the Loco-hauled trains and removed the duplicates (The FX/FO trains that run at identical times to each other) and tidied it up a bit. Hope this is useful to people

Adam

Well done Adam, easier to read & understand.#

By The Way I have sent off the West Wales Dec 2014 consultative timetable today,to those members who requested it.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Airports don't work like that.
Plenty of Midlands folk (notably Shrewsbury, Telford, Stoke) use Manchester.
It has a far wider catchment than Birmingham/Bristol/Cardiff/Leeds/Liverpool.
The Llandudno trains currently sit nearly an hour in Mayfield siding waiting to return west.

Fully agree, the catchment area for Ringway is huge,more international flights than any other airport outside the South East,you are also correct, the DMUs wait at Mayfield for nearly an hour before returning, Mayfield that was a station link, http://www.derelictplaces.co.uk/main/showthread.php?t=11506

 

[Gareth Marston]

Airports don't work like that.
Plenty of Midlands folk (notably Shrewsbury, Telford, Stoke) use Manchester.
It has a far wider catchment than Birmingham/Bristol/Cardiff/Leeds/Liverpool.
The Llandudno trains currently sit nearly an hour in Mayfield siding waiting to return west.

A lot of holidays are booked last minute these days due to cost reasons so airport location in UK can be a lottery. The last few times I've flown have been Liverpool (easy jet to Farro), Heathrow (ba to New York) and Manchester (tour operator to Malta) though I have a direct train to BHM INTL from where I live.

 

[SprinterMan]

Well done Adam, easier to read & understand.

Thanks It still has a couple of small errors, but people can now see clearly the LHCS trains along the coast

Adam

 

[Philip C]

It would be pointless for ATW to incur extra time by going in and out of Manchester Airport and also when there would be little, if any, passengers using it. There are enough services from Crewe serving the Airport and anybody south of Crewe would use Birmingham or further on Cardiff or Bristol Airports.

I concur with some of the comments already posted in response to the Quote above. For passengers heading for a very wide range of international destinations from Warrington, Chester and the North Wales Coast, Manchester is the natural airport to use and is likely so to remain for many years. The elimination of the need to change at Piccadilly for those with luggage is likely to be well received. The current layover of the train sets outside Piccadilly makes the projection an obvious opportunity and I assume that the opening of a fourth platform at the Airport Station makes the service practicable.

My other thought is that, with the long-term intention to run services from Chester to the Calder Valley Line, there may be some incentive for Arriva to "dig themselves in" at Piccadilly. Perhaps they fear re-routeing to Victoria, which really wouldn't be that great Ordsall Curve notwithstanding, for Airport traffic.

 

[PHILIPE]

It is still difficult to path between Manchester Piccadilly and the Airport which is the reason more Llandudnos don't go through now.

 

[Swr28]

Annoyingly the first Aberystwyth to Birmingham on Saturday remains at Shrewsbuy from 07.00 to 07.31.

On a Monday to Friday, there is a 07.12 London Midland service to New St. Ideal as it connects well with other services.

Would it not be harmful for atw to run it at say 07.20 with a decent arrival into New St. I long for the days when I use to arrive into Wolverhampton for 7.49.

 

[PHILIPE]

Annoyingly the first Aberystwyth to Birmingham on Saturday remains at Shrewsbuy from 07.00 to 07.31.

On a Monday to Friday, there is a 07.12 London Midland service to New St. Ideal as it connects well with other services.

Would it not be harmful for atw to run it at say 07.20 with a decent arrival into New St. I long for the days when I use to arrive into Wolverhampton for 7.49.

Pathing between Wolverhampton and Birmingham. Waits at Shrewsbury to fit into the normal hourly slot.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Annoyingly the first Aberystwyth to Birmingham on Saturday remains at Shrewsbuy from 07.00 to 07.31.

On a Monday to Friday, there is a 07.12 London Midland service to New St. Ideal as it connects well with other services.

Would it not be harmful for atw to run it at say 07.20 with a decent arrival into New St. I long for the days when I use to arrive into Wolverhampton for 7.49.

Couple of reasons for its early arrival into Shrewsbury firstly it then connects with the 0719 to Cardiff and 0724 to Llandudno. Secondly a few years back when everyone was hysterical about Cambrian punctuality it was feared not having this train on time at Shrewsbury would knock the morning AM out into Birmingham. However the first train always ran on time as it crosses nothing else between Aber and Salop.

 

[Swr28]

Surely no harm in running into the 07.12 path on a Saturday. Earliest I got to Loughborough yesterday was 1042. In Central days it was a much better timetable, with much better connections, that's in my experience of travelling weekly on the line since 1994.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Cardiff understandable, but Chester/Llandudno, surely a larger percentage of Cambrian passengers are travelling towards New St..frustrating arriving into New St and watching services departing when several years ago you could easily catch them. I get the feeling we have taken a step back.

Couple of reasons for its early arrival into Shrewsbury firstly it then connects with the 0719 to Cardiff and 0724 to Llandudno. Secondly a few years back when everyone was hysterical about Cambrian punctuality it was feared not having this train on time at Shrewsbury would knock the morning AM out into Birmingham. However the first train always ran on time as it crosses nothing else between Aber and Salop.

 

[PHILIPE]

Surely no harm in running into the 07.12 path on a Saturday. Earliest I got to Loughborough yesterday was 1042. In Central days it was a much better timetable, with much better connections, that's in my experience of travelling weekly on the line since 1994.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Cardiff understandable, but Chester/Llandudno, surely a larger percentage of Cambrian passengers are travelling towards New St..frustrating arriving into New St and watching services departing when several years ago you could easily catch them. I get the feeling we have taken a step back.

It can't leave at 07 12 because there is no path between Wolverhampton and New St just like a weekday.

 

[merlodlliw]

I have received the transcripts of this weeks questions & responses to the First Minister & Minister for Rail in the Senedd on Tuesday & Wednesday, I am passing them on for your information,an interesting point was raised by Eluned Parrott A.M for South Wales, I have learned the amount Welsh Government received was £3.5millions,when DB took over ATW,I might add the First Ministers response is very blurred, the Gowerton Project & Wrexham redouble is money from the Capitol Account, not Revenue, Ebbw Vale was European Money.

Please see below a copy of the Record of Proceedings for First Minister’s Questions on 16/9/14 and questions to the Minister for Transport on 17/9/14.

Mark Isherwood
The Minister will be aware of widespread concern expressed throughout the summer about proposed Arriva timetable changes on routes to Manchester and Birmingham across north Wales, and from Wrexham to Birmingham and the Shrewsbury to Wrexham links and so on. You wrote to me at the beginning of August to say that you had not yet had the timetables, but that these would be given attention upon receipt. I have since received them and, therefore, I presume, so have you. I wonder whether you could therefore indicate your intentions now with regard to reviewing those proposals and working with rail user groups in north Wales on their legitimate concerns.

Edwina Hart
I think that there are some legitimate concerns being raised about these timetables, which we will have to look at as a Government and have a dialogue about across the piece. I had a meeting today with the Liberal Democrat Member for the North Wales region to talk about timetabling and those issues. I would be grateful, if Members have any specific concerns on this issue, now that my officials are looking at it, if they would write specifically about the issues that have been raised with them, because we intend to take this up with the relevant company and hopefully find some way forward.

Aled Roberts
Minister, can I echo the comments made by Mark Isherwood? I would ask, however, that perhaps the Government consider whether there should be cross-border arrangements. Certainly, some of the decisions made by Arriva Trains Wales show that it is accepting contracts from the UK Government when it has insufficient rolling stock. It tells us that it is unable to provide the rolling stock and yet it is taking on more routes from the UK Government.
I also ask that, perhaps if it is not possible now, when the franchise comes up, you ask the new franchisee to adopt the practices of Chiltern Railways, a sister company of Arriva Trains Wales, which publishes its draft timetable some 18 months before any proposed changes.

Edwina Hart
That seems to me to be a very good idea, to publish it 18 months before any proposed changes. I take on board your points about the cross-border arrangements, and we will certainly move to look and facilitate some of those discussions, because I have been concerned particularly about what I heard this morning with regard to some of the issues that are arising from these timetable changes.


Rail Capacity
Eluned Parrott
3. Will the First Minister make a statement on rail capacity across Wales? OAQ(4)1819(FM)

Carwyn Jones The First Minister
Yes. We are committed to continuous improvement of our rail services and investment in our transport infrastructure, of course. For example, we will spend £177.3 million in revenue support this financial year on rail services in Wales.

Eluned Parrott
Thank you, First Minister. When Deutsche Bahn took over the Arriva company, it paid a fee to take over the Wales and borders rail franchise, as I understand it, to both the UK and Welsh Governments. The Department for Transport has announced that that £1.2 million that it received has been invested in new rolling stock to increase the capacity of cross-border services between England and Wales. How much did the Welsh Government receive from this deal and what was it spent on?

Carwyn Jones First Minister
It did not quite work that way, but what we have done, via revenue spending, is improve our rail services. For example, if you look at what has happened with the Vale of Glamorgan line and after that with the Ebbw valley line, and at the additional services to Fishguard and Goodwick station, they were put in place by Welsh Government. If you look at the partial redoubling of the Wrexham to Saltney Junction line and at the redoubling at Gowerton, these are all things that have been done to improve rail services in Wales. So, I believe that we have a good record as a Government of showing that we can deliver on rail.

 

[IanXC]

My other thought is that, with the long-term intention to run services from Chester to the Calder Valley Line, there may be some incentive for Arriva to "dig themselves in" at Piccadilly. Perhaps they fear re-routeing to Victoria, which really wouldn't be that great Ordsall Curve notwithstanding, for Airport traffic.

I'm not sure there is such a strongly held view on Piccadilly - if anything I understand there is a school of thought that running to Victoria would offer better connections to TPE services going forward (although perhaps the answer is Airport-Piccadilly-(Ordsall Curve)-Victoria in due course...)

There are 6 car workings being introduced in the December timetable too, although I must say I have no knowledge of where, or whether its 2x 175/1 or 3x 158.

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm not sure there is such a strongly held view on Piccadilly - if anything I understand there is a school of thought that running to Victoria would offer better connections to TPE services going forward (although perhaps the answer is Airport-Piccadilly-(Ordsall Curve)-Victoria in due course...)

There are 6 car workings being introduced in the December timetable too, although I must say I have no knowledge of where, or whether its 2x 175/1 or 3x 158.

The December timetable you mention,six car workings, which TOC? out of interest. I am aware ATW will have six cars on the Shrewsbury/Birmingham route.Are you referring to Manchester area.

 

[IanXC]

The December timetable you mention,six car workings, which TOC? out of interest. I am aware ATW will have six cars on the Shrewsbury/Birmingham route.Are you referring to Manchester area.

ATW, I hadnt realised it was already happening on that route - I can't be certain but my impression was on the Manchester-Cardiff axis...

 

[merlodlliw]

ATW, I hadnt realised it was already happening on that route - I can't be certain but my impression was on the Manchester-Cardiff axis...

Had a look at the information sheet from ATW sent with the December timetables, no mention of any changes in capacity on the Manchester/Cardiff route, only increased capacity on the North Wales/Manchester route and a six car of class 158 Shrewsbury to Birmingham on a morning commuter run.
I am unable to put up the ATW sheet due to a computer problem,but I have circulated it widely to forum members who asked for it.
ATW Management staff at a recent meeting announced it was to try & make all Manchester/South Wales three 175s in place of two cars.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure there is such a strongly held view on Piccadilly - if anything I understand there is a school of thought that running to Victoria would offer better connections to TPE services going forward (although perhaps the answer is Airport-Piccadilly-(Ordsall Curve)-Victoria in due course...)

When the idea of re-routing Llandudno service to Victoria was proposed a few years back it was strongly opposed. However, long term it's expected they'll be a Yorkshire-Warrington-Chester service (which could be via Victoria or Piccadilly depending which proposal you look at.) If the new service is via Piccadilly, I expect the existing service could lose it's path in to Piccadilly and go in to Victoria instead but it should be noted Victoria has limited capacity for services from the west terminating there and I doubt the Welsh government would be keen on the idea of ATW running something like Llandundo-Rochdale. (Apparently Llandudno-Chester-Bradford-Leeds was an idea Network Rail put forward but rejected by the Welsh Government who didn't want ATW serving Yorkshire or TPE or Northern serving Llandundo.)

 

[merlodlliw]

When the idea of re-routing Llandudno service to Victoria was proposed a few years back it was strongly opposed. However, long term it's expected they'll be a Yorkshire-Warrington-Chester service (which could be via Victoria or Piccadilly depending which proposal you look at.) If the new service is via Piccadilly, I expect the existing service could lose it's path in to Piccadilly and go in to Victoria instead but it should be noted Victoria has limited capacity for services from the west terminating there and I doubt the Welsh government would be keen on the idea of ATW running something like Llandundo-Rochdale. (Apparently Llandudno-Chester-Bradford-Leeds was an idea Network Rail put forward but rejected by the Welsh Government who didn't want ATW serving Yorkshire or TPE or Northern serving Llandundo.)

feedback from my AM who had a meeting last week with the Minister responsible for rail in Wales, there now appears a sea change in WG thinking that is leading away from being parochial, AMs from all parties in North Wales wish to see better services linking the North West of England with direct trains.
Network rail also put forward the triangle of Liverpool/Manchester and Wrexham,this certainly is not rejected,capacity being the major stumbling block.

 

[Gareth Marston]

feedback from my AM who had a meeting last week with the Minister responsible for rail in Wales, there now appears a sea change in WG thinking that is leading away from being parochial, AMs from all parties in North Wales wish to see better services linking the North West of England with direct trains.
Network rail also put forward the triangle of Liverpool/Manchester and Wrexham,this certainly is not rejected,capacity being the major stumbling block.

Any indication when the public consultation on the Replacement Wales and Borders franchise will be?

 

[merlodlliw]

Any indication when the public consultation on the Replacement Wales and Borders franchise will be?

No idea, ill ask around, I am aware discussions in WG Rail division have commenced,this should be easy to find out,now my local AM has been invited onto the Ministers
Committee.