ATW say 'passengers should actively seek out the guard to buy a ticket'

[gareth950]

Taken from this article

Arriva Trains Wales customer services director Lynne Milligan said the fines were an effective deterrent to make sure that passengers pay for their tickets and limit the company’s losses.

She said: “We have done our own estimates at revenue lost – and it varies by time of day – but it’s about 7% of journeys.

“It is hard to work out what that costs us but it will be in the millions of pounds every year.”

Ms Milligan said that fines were supposed to act as a deterrent.

She said: “Enforcement is important because it is about deterring people who think they can get away with travelling without a valid ticket.

“People should read about fines and think ‘I’m not going to be caught out, I’m going to buy a ticket’.”

Ms Milligan said people must buy a ticket at the first possible opportunity to avoid getting a fine.

“It’s really important that people buy a ticket at the earliest opportunity they can – not sit passively and wait until they are asked,” she said.

“That could mean buying it on our app, at a station, from a machine or by going to see a conductor when you first get on a train.

“There is a conductor on every train and they are visible – so you should actively make your way to the conductor."

The customer services chief admitted there are some people who don’t have a valid ticket for totally innocent reasons – and said Arriva’s policy doesn’t go after them.

“If someone is stopped by one of our revenue inspectors they follow a checklist, and if someone has made a genuine error they will let people go,” she said.
“But if the explanation isn’t innocent then you’ll get caught and you’ll have to pay a fine.”

Is this enforceable? I don't want this thread to be about the behaviour of the RPIs - that's been discussed already - but ATW's policy on fines if you don't have a ticket, and valid reasons for not having a ticket - is completely different to their policy on ticket less travel since 2003.

Do ATW really expect passengers to go and knock on the rear cab of the train to buy a ticket before they take a seat? So there'll regularly be long lines of people down the carriage waiting to buy a ticket at the rear cab booking office? What if you find yourself on a double Pacer / Pacer + 150 and the guard is in a different unit?

And what counts as a 'genuine error'? ATW seem to have made it pretty clear. Your opportunities to buy a ticket are: 1) Ticket office at station or TVM, 2) from the guard on the train, 3) or get fined. All stations with barriers have the opportunity to buy a ticket after you've left the train but before you can get through the barriers - and if the guard doesn't come round and I know I'm getting off at a barriered station - I will get the cash ready to pay when I get off - but recently there have been reports of people getting fined when alighting at barrierred stations and not getting the chance to buy a ticket to get through the barriers.

ATW are doing their best to turn the S Wales travelling public against them as the franchise draws to an end. No TOC would start a franchise with these bullying tactics so why end one like it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they want to take that line, the guard should stay at a specific set of doors, clearly marked, and passengers without tickets should board there and make themselves known.

 

[Mag_seven]

How about ATW providing more open booking offices and ticket machines at their stations. It seems to be a one way street a lot of the time with some of these TOCs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How about ATW providing more open booking offices and ticket machines at their stations. It seems to be a one way street a lot of the time with some of these TOCs.

Two (at least) cash and card TVMs per station, and statutory Penalty Fares, are the right approach. Same as is needed for Northern's urban operation. Then there is no excuse.

The Welsh rural lines, OTOH, should be Paytrain lines on which sale on board is always allowed.

 

[AlterEgo]

Put the ticket machine on the train, like you get on trams and light rail in many European countries.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would also work. Then anyone who just goes and sits down is clearly deliberately evading the fare.

 

[gareth950]

Is it stated in the NRCOC that it's the passengers duty to seek out the guard to buy a ticket or get fined?
If not then ATW need to drop their bullying and £600 fines and provide a porta-cabin at every valley lines station during full operating hrs to be able to buy a ticket. It just needs to be a person with a ticket machine, nothing fancy. Or provide a second member of staff on every train whose only purpose is to patrol the train issuing tickets.

But that will hit their revenue even more than ticket-less travel.

 

[Fare-Cop]

If they want to take that line, the guard should stay at a specific set of doors, clearly marked, and passengers without tickets should board there and make themselves known.

That would seem to be the most sensible and pro-active approach for both parties. After all, the guard should always be visible at the platform when a train arrives and before it leaves as they are the person in uniform checking the doors before giving the signal to proceed.

The reality is that if facilities genuinely were available to pay before travelling and if the traveller has not done so, if that traveller then fails to declare the journey on train and is reported because inspectors are checking when they attempt to leave the railway without a ticket, they are likely to be convicted if summonsed to Court.

Looking at DaveNewcastle's excellent legal guide on this forum, in those circumstances the passenger is likely to be judged on:

1. Their words & actions. ( not paid and leaving the railway.)
2. The Corbyn (1978) case precedent. ( boarded without ticket, but waiting to pay only if asked to do so by the guard or inspectors.)

As a generalisation, it seems that both parties need to make some changes.

For the rail company, making sure facilities are available & working is the first important step.

For the passenger, making that little bit of extra time to buy a ticket where facilities are available is the first step

 

[Hadders]

Two (at least) cash and card TVMs per station, and statutory Penalty Fares, are the right approach. Same as is needed for Northern's urban operation. Then there is no excuse.

The Welsh rural lines, OTOH, should be Paytrain lines on which sale on board is always allowed.

I agree with this. In this day and age it shouldn't be difficult to provide TVMs at every station.

The only things with Paytrains is they need to be on genuine rural lines that are very quiet (and there aren't many of those these days)

Put the ticket machine on the train, like you get on trams and light rail in many European countries.

Not sure that would work with trains working on different lines across the day. Let's just make sure every station has TVMs. It can't be that hard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only things with Paytrains is they need to be on genuine rural lines that are very quiet (and there aren't many of those these days)

There indeed aren't many, but ATW do have a number of them. One good example is the Conwy Valley. Another is (not ATW, obviously) Bedford-Bletchley. FWIW, some LM ticket office staff think Bedford-Bletchley *is* a Paytrain service and will suggest they just go and get on instead of queueing because tickets are near enough always done on board. Heart of Wales is another. The South Wales line past Swansea probably as well, and the Borderlands line throughout.

I suppose there are difficult cases like the Cambrian Coast where you'd want Pwllheli-Mach to be Paytrain but beyond that (and Aber) not. Easiest might be to make Shrewsbury-the Coast all Paytrain, with a couple of TVMs by the platform offering remote issue and a clear sign "Tickets from the Cambrian Coast" on them, then anyone walking past has no excuse - but in most cases the stations on the inland bit of the Cambrian are far enough apart that there would always be time to catch up on fares.

 

[Fare-Cop]

If not then ATW need to drop their bullying and £600 fines .

This is the sort of erroneous and emotive comment that creates further upset & misunderstanding.

ATW do not charge £600 fines.

The inspector will report an allegation of an offence if they believe they have identified one.

The TOC assesses the evidence and may allow a settlement, but if not may authorise a summons for prosecution.

If it proceeds that far and if a Court finds the evidence compelling enough to convict, the Magistrates decide what the fine will be, not ATW.

If the Court does not believe the TOCs evidence, there is no fine.

 

[gareth950]

I agree with this. In this day and age it shouldn't be difficult to provide TVMs at every station.

The only things with Paytrains is they need to be on genuine rural lines that are very quiet (and there aren't many of those these days)

Not sure that would work with trains working on different lines across the day. Let's just make sure every station has TVMs. It can't be that hard.

That's all very well, but all too often this is what you're faced with at an ATW TVM

 

[gareth950]

This is the sort of erroneous and emotive comment that creates further upset & misunderstanding.

ATW do not charge £600 fines.

The inspector will report an allegation of an offence if they believe they have identified one.

The TOC assesses the evidence and may allow a settlement, but if not may authorise a summons for prosecution.

If it proceeds that far and if a Court finds the evidence compelling enough to convict, the Magistrates decide what the fine will be, not ATW.

If the Court does not believe the TOCs evidence, there is no fine.

If you regularly travelled on ATW Valley lines you'd know that the RPIs they employ/contract out to are bullies, using threatening and intimidating behaviour to get people's details. I've even seen them threatening young secondary school kids.
Local people call them the 'Green Gestapo' (thanks to their green vests) and a FB page has been set up advising passengers where they are likely to be found on the network.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do ATW's trains have the hazard light flash on the coach in which the guard is keyed in/using his/her local door?

 

[Gareth Marston]

There indeed aren't many, but ATW do have a number of them. One good example is the Conwy Valley. Another is (not ATW, obviously) Bedford-Bletchley. FWIW, some LM ticket office staff think Bedford-Bletchley *is* a Paytrain service and will suggest they just go and get on instead of queueing because tickets are near enough always done on board. Heart of Wales is another. The South Wales line past Swansea probably as well, and the Borderlands line throughout.

I suppose there are difficult cases like the Cambrian Coast where you'd want Pwllheli-Mach to be Paytrain but beyond that (and Aber) not. Easiest might be to make Shrewsbury-the Coast all Paytrain, with a couple of TVMs by the platform offering remote issue and a clear sign "Tickets from the Cambrian Coast" on them, then anyone walking past has no excuse - but in most cases the stations on the inland bit of the Cambrian are far enough apart that there would always be time to catch up on fares.

Borth-Aberystwyth and Caersws-Newtown are two short runs on the Cambrian Mainline where the conductor doesn't always do everybody. On the whole the Conductors on the Cambrian do a pretty good job at collecting fares on board from those that want to pay anyway.

On platform TVM's come with problems as this recent message shows -

"Due to the lack of toilet facilities at Waun-Gron Park, someone urinated in the ticket tray"

A cash enabled TVM on the new South Wales Metro trains next to the cctv camera is probably a good idea to instill a new culture in the valleys with 95% + of journeys on the valleys network they don't need to be that complicated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Due to the lack of toilet facilities at Waun-Gron Park, someone urinated in the ticket tray"

Given how awkward it must be to do that, I doubt the lack of facilities is the prime cause there

A cash enabled TVM on the new South Wales Metro trains next to the cctv camera is probably a good idea to instill a new culture in the valleys with 95% + of journeys on the valleys network they don't need to be that complicated.

Agreed. The Valleys is basically a Swiss-style S-Bahn, and that is mostly TVMs only with DOO and very stiff (£80 plus fare, roughly), strict liability[1] PFs if caught.

[1] There are a few valid excuses for no ticket on IC/IR, perhaps surprisingly "clueless tourist" is actually listed as a valid excuse, but on R/RE/S you must have a ticket before boarding, officially the station is closed if all TVMs are not working, I believe.

 

[AlterEgo]

That would also work. Then anyone who just goes and sits down is clearly deliberately evading the fare.

It would also mean far fewer ticket machines needing to be installed.

 

[MartinG]

If they want to take that line, the guard should stay at a specific set of doors, clearly marked, and passengers without tickets should board there and make themselves known.

Yes, that's what I do

 

[MartinG]

That would also work. Then anyone who just goes and sits down is clearly deliberately evading the fare.

Yes - definitely

 

[FenMan]

Yes - definitely

Hmm, would that include those with mobility problems or parents with young children?

 

[StripeyNick]

Having travelled around London for the first time using contactless the other week, I'd love it if a tap in & out system was used.

 

[yorkie]

Lynne Milligan is making things up ; there is no requirement to do what she says and it would be most impracticable on many routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lynne Milligan is making things up ; there is no requirement to do what she says and it would be most impracticable on many routes.

As I noted it would be practical if they set up a "guard's office" type arrangement of him always being in the same place (i.e. back cab) after station stops, and clear notices say to go there and knock for a ticket before taking a seat.

Amsterdam trams used to have a conductor's office along those lines.

To me the key is that the policy has to be consistent, well promoted and understandable.

 

[gareth950]

Lynne Milligan is making things up ; there is no requirement to do what she says and it would be most impracticable on many routes.

So would that stand up as a defence if you are paying cash and the guard doesn't come throught the train to sell tickets, if you are stopped by an RPI? From recent news stories they wouldn't accept it as a defence (the RPIs that is)

 

[6Gman]

Lynne Milligan is making things up ; there is no requirement to do what she says and it would be most impracticable on many routes.

EMT used to (still do?) say the same - seek out the conductor.

I once suggested a Forum meet-up at Alsager where we could all board a Crewe-bound Tin Rocket and mob the conductor seeking our singles to Crewe.

 

[gareth950]

As I noted it would be practical if they set up a "guard's office" type arrangement of him always being in the same place (i.e. back cab) after station stops, and clear notices say to go there and knock for a ticket before taking a seat.

Amsterdam trams used to have a conductor's office along those lines.

To me the key is that the policy has to be consistent, well promoted and understandable.

That's part of the problem - there's no consistency at all. On some journeys there are guards who insist on doing a full ticket check and seeing everyone's ticket. Others sail through the train saying 'anymore fares please?' and often miss you, others stay in the cab.

Having read the revenue enforcement policy on ATW's website again, nowhere is there any mention of what happens if you are paying by cash and for what ever reason you can't buy on the train. Or if the TVM isn't working and you can't buy on the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's another case of the strict liability Byelaws being a nuisance, because the Railway (well, ATW and Northern) can't be trusted with them.

A RoRA prosecution would no way succeed as it would be hard to establish intent.

I'm no fan of strict liability laws generally, but this one seems to cause real issues because TOCs abuse it in a way that would never work if they simply had to sue for the lost revenue.

 

[sarahj]

EMT used to (still do?) say the same - seek out the conductor.

I once suggested a Forum meet-up at Alsager where we could all board a Crewe-bound Tin Rocket and mob the conductor seeking our singles to Crewe.

Yawn. Happens at many stations. I've had 3-5-10 folks at some. Punters wanting a ticket come up and buy them, folks that want to try and chance it, see me and and board at another door. Since the routes I work these days are stations 2-3 apart I do spend a lot of time just standing there and flogging tickets. People that want to find you will, and since I'm standing on the platform at every station, well. You do get the odd one that said they never saw me. My reply 'I'm difficult to miss'.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hmm, would that include those with mobility problems or parents with young children?

If the person with a mobility problem cannot access the machine because it is inaccessible then that indicates a problem with the machine design.

Being a parent isn't a protected characteristic - so yes it would apply to them. They wouldn't sit down on a bus without paying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Being a parent isn't a protected characteristic - so yes it would apply to them. They wouldn't sit down on a bus without paying.

Part of that is because they'd have to walk past the driver to do so, which would be rather more like walking past Tesco tills without paying.

Perhaps an argument for local door only at unstaffed stations with no TVM? If the station is busy enough that that wouldn't work, it's busy enough for a TVM.