ATW stock allocation questions

[PHILIPE]

Ignore all the one-off failures and general disruptions for a second.

Do you personally think a 158 is needed on the Maesteg/Ebbw Vale services in general?

No. But on paper there are 158s available and they need to be diagrammed to something.

 

[ValleyLines142]

No. But on paper there are 158s available and they need to be diagrammed to something.

I just think the diagrams need to be planned carefully so that the appropriate stock is on the right services.

I have since found out from someone that when I went to Manchester in February and I had 150241 on the way, apparently there were two 158s in Canton sheds, one of which went on the Maesteg services. Although it is in the past and what's done is done, to say I was annoyed was an understatement!

 

[craigybagel]

I just think the diagrams need to be planned carefully so that the appropriate stock is on the right services.

I have since found out from someone that when I went to Manchester in February and I had 150241 on the way, apparently there were two 158s in Canton sheds, one of which went on the Maesteg services. Although it is in the past and what's done is done, to say I was annoyed was an understatement!

At the moment only two trains a day on the marches are booked for 150s on a weekday. They have to run in order to swap 150s between Crewe/Chester and Cardiff, but they are both late at night and carry few (and for parts of the journey, sometimes none) passengers. Everything else is booked 158 or 175. There currently most likely isnt anything more appropriate the Cardiff 158s can be used on.

 

[PHILIPE]

The 16 35 Cardiff to Ebbw Vale is booked for a 158 (and 150 for strengthening) worked off the Fishguard Boats. I know Dan has complained when a 150 worked the Boats !!!

 

[berneyarms]

Ideally 158s would not be on Ebbw Vale but there are only two return journeys operated by them each weekday on that route, presumably when there are no 150s available except the maintenance cover.

Cheltenham-Maesteg is arguable but again, there are simply not enough 150 sets to do everything.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What's needed is ATW getting the 8 143's off FGW and replacing 4 2 car 150 diagrams on valleys lines with them and then cascading the 4 150's out to other diagrams in south and west wales to free up the in appropriately used 158's.

 

[Parallel]

What's needed is ATW getting the 8 143's off FGW and replacing 4 2 car 150 diagrams on valleys lines with them and then cascading the 4 150's out to other diagrams in south and west wales to free up the in appropriately used 158's.

Indeed, FGW's 143s are in good condition too as they've had a decent refurb.

The bad news is FGW are as equally stretched for stock (The 143s aren't doubled up all day on the Devon metro) so the soonest I can see units going anywhere else will be 2017, provided the wires go up in the Thames Valley without much delay & the respective stock is cascaded without issue.

I think 8 143s will help ATW enormously.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Indeed, FGW's 143s are in good condition too as they've had a decent refurb.

The bad news is FGW are as equally stretched for stock (The 143s aren't doubled up all day on the Devon metro) so the soonest I can see units going anywhere else will be 2017, provided the wires go up in the Thames Valley without much delay & the respective stock is cascaded without issue.

I think 8 143s will help ATW enormously.

Yes it will be December 2017 but the opportunity is there also get some ex FGW 153 and semi permanently couple them up to 150/2's to form 3 car sets.

 

[PHILIPE]

What's needed is ATW getting the 8 143's off FGW and replacing 4 2 car 150 diagrams on valleys lines with them and then cascading the 4 150's out to other diagrams in south and west wales to free up the in appropriately used 158's.

What would the 158s work ? The capacity for some work in South Wales is there especially after a campaign to get one on the Fishguard Boats.
Otherwise it would finding work just for the sake of it rather than needs. The FGW 143s could even go back to the ROSCO pending withdrawal.

 

[berneyarms]

What would the 158s work ? The capacity for some work in South Wales is there especially after a campaign to get one on the Fishguard Boats.
Otherwise it would finding work just for the sake of it rather than needs. The FGW 143s could even go back to the ROSCO pending withdrawal.

Extend the Cambrian mainline to hourly all day maybe?

But you have a point - you need one for the boat train service, so what else is appropriate?

Do you link that in with the Manchester services somehow maybe?

Cheltenham is probably the best place for them, but that is linked with Maesteg which seems to get some people's backs up.

 

[PHILIPE]

The history of the current 158 situation goes back to 2006 when 4 x 158s worked 4 Maesteg to Cheltenham Diagrams. Over the years, one was taken away to provide extra capacity on the Cambrian and replaced by a 150. Since then, diagrams were squeezed to provide another unit to cover the additional Fishguard services. In order to do this, advantage was taken to use down time of almost an hour at Cardiff on the Ebbw Vale services but this was achieved by breaking a couple of Cheltenham to Maestegs at Cardiff resulting in a couple of 158s a day working to Ebbw Vale and also to provide one to replace a 150 0n the daytime Fishguard Boats. This leaves 3x158s in South Wales which start off on Day A by working 06 10 Shrewsbury to Maesteg and returning North on Day C on 20 17 Cardiff to Manchester Picc

 

[berneyarms]

The history of the current 158 situation goes back to 2006 when 4 x 158s worked 4 Maesteg to Cheltenham Diagrams. Over the years, one was taken away to provide extra capacity on the Cambrian and replaced by a 150. Since then, diagrams were squeezed to provide another unit to cover the additional Fishguard services. In order to do this, advantage was taken to use down time of almost an hour at Cardiff on the Ebbw Vale services but this was achieved by breaking a couple of Cheltenham to Maestegs at Cardiff resulting in a couple of 158s a day working to Ebbw Vale and also to provide one to replace a 150 0n the daytime Fishguard Boats. This leaves 3x150s in South Wales which start off on Day A by working 06 10 Shrewsbury to Maesteg and returning North on Day C on 20 17 Cardiff to Manchester Picc

I think you mean 3 x 158s in South Wales rather than 3 x 150s!!

 

[PHILIPE]

I think you mean 3 x 158s in South Wales rather than 3 x 150s!!

Thanks for that. I've now amended my post to read 3x158s.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What would the 158s work ? The capacity for some work in South Wales is there especially after a campaign to get one on the Fishguard Boats.
Otherwise it would finding work just for the sake of it rather than needs. The FGW 143s could even go back to the ROSCO pending withdrawal.

The peak hour trains into/ out of Birmingham operated by ATW at four car length are all struggling easily could do with an extra carriage if not two. Try the 1624 to Aberystwyth at New St rush hour at Cardiff Queen St's civilised in comparison.

 

[Jez]

As I mentioned before the 1308 Milford Haven to Manchester which starts in Manchester at 0630, is often a 150 instead of a 158. I guess it must be difficult with the 158s as the cambrian obviously takes priority so if there is less availability of 158s then the South Wales diagrams suffer. The afternoon/earlyevening Gloucester-Cardiff-Fishguard is often a 150 for this reason,

I also dont think a 158 should be used on local journeys like Ebbw Vale and Maesteg, not with them now being refurbished and including nice comfortable seats and power sockets. any "spare" 158s should be on long distance like Manchester to Cardiff to take pressure off the 175s but i appreciate it isnt possible to diagram them. Im amazed they still come to Cardiff to be honest, their maintenance is done in Mid Wales is it not?

 

[PHILIPE]

As I mentioned before the 1308 Milford Haven to Manchester which starts in Manchester at 0630, is often a 150 instead of a 158. I guess it must be difficult with the 158s as the cambrian obviously takes priority so if there is less availability of 158s then the South Wales diagrams suffer. The afternoon/earlyevening Gloucester-Cardiff-Fishguard is often a 150 for this reason,

I also dont think a 158 should be used on local journeys like Ebbw Vale and Maesteg, not with them now being refurbished and including nice comfortable seats and power sockets. any "spare" 158s should be on long distance like Manchester to Cardiff to take pressure off the 175s but i appreciate it isnt possible to diagram them. Im amazed they still come to Cardiff to be honest, their maintenance is done in Mid Wales is it not?

Agreed. There are no more 150s left to replace 158s in South Wales any way.

 

[craigybagel]

The small amount of 158 work in South Waleskeeps the crews at Cardiff (mainline)and Carmarthen depots current on them. If they didn't sign 158's, then any time there was no 175 for a Manchester or Holyhead-Cardiff you could run into problems with traincrew, making it more likely you'd need a150 instead!

 

[Gareth Marston]

The small amount of 158 work in South Waleskeeps the crews at Cardiff (mainline)and Carmarthen depots current on them. If they didn't sign 158's, then any time there was no 175 for a Manchester or Holyhead-Cardiff you could run into problems with traincrew, making it more likely you'd need a150 instead!

Looking through Network Rails Wales the 2019 baseline assumption is that the Milford Haven trains connect with the Paddington trains at Swansea and the Pembroke Dock/HoW trains to the Swansea to Bristol TM service. It would seem no through trains from West Wales to Cardiff are being assumed. So no more 175's or 158's west of Cardiff? The Heart of Wales forum have been promoting Class 156's as ideal for their line and with ScotRail realising 10 of them they would appear to be an ideal fit for self contained west wales diagrams based out of Landore.

 

[craigybagel]

It'll be interesting to see if that goes ahead. Whilst it probably makes sense operationally, you can bet there'll be lots of people in West Wales complaining if they lose their direct Cardiff service.

But then id be amazed if anyone can predict in the medium to long term what will end up happening. In the short term though, replacing the 158's in South Wales looks difficult.

 

[PHILIPE]

Much depends on timings of electrification. Difficult to plan ahead as almost every project slips beyond original date. Nothing to replace 158s in South Wales as there are no more 150s available to pluck out of thin air now as has been the case.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It'll be interesting to see if that goes ahead. Whilst it probably makes sense operationally, you can bet there'll be lots of people in West Wales complaining if they lose their direct Cardiff service.

But then id be amazed if anyone can predict in the medium to long term what will end up happening. In the short term though, replacing the 158's in South Wales looks difficult.

Railfuture seem to want a through train from everywhere to Pembrokeshire and there's several marginal Assembly seats to add to the mix. The Welsh Government wanting an hourly service from north to South Wales whilst there are plans for no direct services from Carmanthanshire and Pembrokeshire to Cardiff will be under pressure once local politicians get wind. And being Welsh they"ll want their cake and to eat it and get home in time for tea

I've heard that a bid for capital funding to buy new EMU stock for the valleys is being worked on by welsh government officials though there's no guarantee they will materialise.

 

[Jez]

This morning the first Swansea to Manchester which leaves Swansea at around 0705 (Carmarthen at 0615) was a 158 and 150. Assume they were taking the 150 back to Cardiff as this is only booked as a 2 car (175 usually). Quite a few 158s and 150s have turned up in recent weeks on South Wales to Manchester as already noted on this thread.

I have a question re the 11.10 Swanline, i used this to travel to Cardiff on Monay and instead of terminating on Platform 2 and shunting back out to Canton it terminated on the far end of platform 1 and then went out of the station Newport direction. Im wondering what happens to it then because as far as I know that 150 isnt used unti peak time for the valleys so why send it Newport direction?

 

[PHILIPE]

This morning the first Swansea to Manchester which leaves Swansea at around 0705 (Carmarthen at 0615) was a 158 and 150. Assume they were taking the 150 back to Cardiff as this is only booked as a 2 car (175 usually). Quite a few 158s and 150s have turned up in recent weeks on South Wales to Manchester as already noted on this thread.

I have a question re the 11.10 Swanline, i used this to travel to Cardiff on Monay and instead of terminating on Platform 2 and shunting back out to Canton it terminated on the far end of platform 1 and then went out of the station Newport direction. Im wondering what happens to it then because as far as I know that 150 isnt used unti peak time for the valleys so why send it Newport direction?

I suggest the 150 would have been faulty and being returned to Canton. According to Real Time Trains, the stock off 11 10 ex Swansea goes to Pengam and then returns to Canton for pathing purposes. There is a Swansea to Paddington up it's back side so couldn't reverse back out if arriving on 1 or, if arrived on 2, the 12.30 Cardiff to Portsmouth Hbr would be coming up it's back side.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I suggest the 150 would have been faulty and being returned to Canton. According to Real Time Trains, the stock off 11 10 ex Swansea goes to Pengam and then returns to Canton for pathing purposes. There is a Swansea to Paddington up it's back side so couldn't reverse back out if arriving on 1 or, if arrived on 2, the 12.30 Cardiff to Portsmouth Hbr would be coming up it's back side.

Was going to say it could go on platform 4, but this would block the 0600 from Penzance (arrival 1218) and 0830 from Llandudno (arrival 1208).

 

[PHILIPE]

Was going to say it could go on platform 4, but this would block the 0600 from Penzance (arrival 1218) and 0830 from Llandudno (arrival 1208).

12 18 departure to Maesteg departing from Platform 3 at the same time. Not normally used for terminating trains except for some from Barry direction or if it's required to work back out again as a passenger train. Crossing the throat is usually avoided.

 

[ValleyLines142]

My poor cousin is enduring the torture of a 150 on the 1134 Cardiff to Manchester all the way to Crewe. Knowing ATW there's probably a sodding 175 sat in Canton sidings!

Still, she'll be on a 390 in just over two hours time

 

[pdq]

I did that from Whitland to Man a few months ago. Not fun

 

[ValleyLines142]

I did that from Whitland to Man a few months ago. Not fun

I had 150241 on the 0540 Cardiff to Manchester on 7th February. My heart absolutely sunk when I saw it arrive into Cardiff as ECS from Canton but after a while it wasn't so bad. Still, I was glad to be off by the time we got to Manchester!

The day after, on the 1830 Manchester to Cardiff, I was blessed with 175110, which felt like luxury in comparison!

 

[craigybagel]

My poor cousin is enduring the torture of a 150 on the 1134 Cardiff to Manchester all the way to Crewe. Knowing ATW there's probably a sodding 175 sat in Canton sidings!

Still, she'll be on a 390 in just over two hours time

If there is there will be a good reason for it. They don't just send out certain units on a whim, believe it or not.

 

[ValleyLines142]

If there is there will be a good reason for it. They don't just send out certain units on a whim, believe it or not.

With ATW's reputation, I'm not convinced I'm afraid.