Automation and Train Driver Job Security

[Ciel]

Hello.

I just wanted to gain some opinions about how automation might affect train driver job security.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...o_subway_systems#Grade-of-Automation_4_(GoA4)

Do you think this will come anytime soon to the UK? Obviously this would result in a cut of train drivers, would it not?

 

[Gooner18]

the Victoria line has been fully automated since day dot, I think most underground lines are now with the driver there just to monitor and over ride in emergencies

 

[Intermodal]

Hello.

I just wanted to gain some opinions about how automation might affect train driver job security.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...o_subway_systems#Grade-of-Automation_4_(GoA4)

Do you think this will come anytime soon to the UK? Obviously this would result in a cut of train drivers, would it not?

This has been discussed many times on this forum and I am sure a search would return comprehensive discussion.

Automation of this level for non-suburban services is not on the cards any time soon.

 

[bionic]

Any money the government has to invest in this technology is being thrown down the HS2 black hole so I wouldn't worry about it. Its a bit different with regard to systems like LU or anything being built from scratch, I can't see them building anything brand new which isn't automated from the off now, but the drivers on most of the lines around the UK are safe for many years to come.

The ATO signalling upgrade on the SSR part of LU is an absolute shambles which they can't get to work on the simplest bit of track, they daren't turn on the Thameslink core section anytime soon seeing as they can't organise basics like recruiting staff and building depots, and the Heathrow tunnels have completely mangled the Crossrail ATO plans for that section. With all of that in mind I can't see the Cumbrian coast, the branches around Bristol or the Potteries loop getting automated anytime in the next millennium!

As a caveat to that though, I would avoid the Underground if you are looking to get into driving as they have already let the cat out of the bag with regards to splitting the train operator grade depending on whether their work is manual or automatic after they've got more than 50% of the system running ATO. Its way behind schedule, naturally, but there's a major war coming on LU over that in a few years (If they ever get the sub surface finished!).

 

[Elwyn]

I think there’s also an important customer perspective. We know that planes can fly without a pilot. (Drones are an obvious example) but would you travel in one? I wouldn’t. The same thing goes for train travel. It’s OK to have a driverless train with something like the Glasgow subway or the DLR where the speeds are relatively slow, the routes fairly simple, but not for the national network. I wouldn’t really want to travel in a driverless train from London to Glasgow. There are too many things to go wrong outside technology’s control. So you would have one bad smash and the passengers would simply abandon it as a reliable way to travel. Too risky. Commercial suicide to have driverless trains on that type of journey.


I think drivers will be needed for a long time to come, on most routes anyway.

 

[fIIsion]

Any money the government has to invest in this technology is being thrown down the HS2 black hole so I wouldn't worry about it. Its a bit different with regard to systems like LU or anything being built from scratch, I can't see them building anything brand new which isn't automated from the off now, but the drivers on most of the lines around the UK are safe for many years to come.

The ATO signalling upgrade on the SSR part of LU is an absolute shambles which they can't get to work on the simplest bit of track, they daren't turn on the Thameslink core section anytime soon seeing as they can't organise basics like recruiting staff and building depots, and the Heathrow tunnels have completely mangled the Crossrail ATO plans for that section. With all of that in mind I can't see the Cumbrian coast, the branches around Bristol or the Potteries loop getting automated anytime in the next millennium!

As a caveat to that though, I would avoid the Underground if you are looking to get into driving as they have already let the cat out of the bag with regards to splitting the train operator grade depending on whether their work is manual or automatic after they've got more than 50% of the system running ATO. Its way behind schedule, naturally, but there's a major war coming on LU over that in a few years (If they ever get the sub surface finished!).

Drivers, whether manual or ATO get the same pay and benefits. Since drivers are able to transfer to any line and receive training in accordance to that line, it is highly doubtful that there will be different pay bands.

 

[bionic]

Drivers, whether manual or ATO get the same pay and benefits. Since drivers are able to transfer to any line and receive training in accordance to that line, it is highly doubtful that there will be different pay bands.

Yes I know they do... for now. There was a leaked internal document a few years ago that had all LUs plans in it. Closure of all booking offices, FFTF etc. That document also covered the proposed regrading of the current Train Operator Grade and new job descriptions for manual and ATO lines once they get ATO introduced on 50% of the combine. It'll be out and out carnage when LU decide to finally play the splitting the grade card.

 

[Gooner18]

I guess it was only ever a matter of time before LU went the route of full automation

 

[Blanka]

Any job that has an element of unskilled repetitive labour is in line for automation. The technology is available, just a matter of cost and implementation. ERTMS seems to be the first step in future full automation of European railways, but whether we see an autonomous train on the mainline in the next 50 years is up for contention. Interesting topic though.

 

[Dave1987]

Guys those of you who are wanting to get into train driving as a career then I highly encourage you to apply. This forum has had many threads where the arguments have been discussed ad infinitum. If you search you will find them. There are so many variables on the mainline that I certainly can’t foresee a time where an organic squidgy bit won’t be required at the front.

Any job that has an element of unskilled repetitive labour is in line for automation.

I would certainly challenge your rhetoric there, certainly at this time of year. When I am having to use my skill and experience to brake for a station on a very slippery day with a bit of drizzle in the air I would certainly not call it unskilled repetitive labour!

 

[bionic]

The only people who think it's unskilled are people who've never done the job.

 

[Blanka]

Totally see where you're coming from, but if you abstract the elements of the job into its individual parts much of it could be carried out by current and emerging technologies. If technology could perform all aspects of a driver's job (or any job for that matter) it doesn't matter if you think it's a skill or not, because a system can perform it for £X amount less per year than a human. It's not a personal attack so please don't take it that way, but it would be naive to think that a company wouldn't replace primary responsibility for train operation to an automated system if they had half the chance. I don't think it'll happen in our lifetime, fingers crossed.

I would certainly challenge your rhetoric there, certainly at this time of year. When I am having to use my skill and experience to brake for a station on a very slippery day with a bit of drizzle in the air I would certainly not call it unskilled repetitive labour!

 

[Economist]

When it comes to the express services, I'd say that there's very much a "skin in the game" argument. The bottom line is that the public know that if the driver makes an error, they personally are at risk, whereas if it's remotely operated from a control room, none of the staff have skin in the game. For similar reasons, there's a lot of opposition to pilotless airliners.

Many of the regional services still rely on Absolute Block signalling, a tried and tested method which was replaced on busy routes in the 1950's with Track Circuit Block. When one considers how much drivers cost, relative to the cost-effectiveness (or lack thereof) of installing ATO on rural routes with few services but lots of route milelage, I don't see ATO arriving there soon.

Lastly, a computer cannot make a dispatch decision, nor can it drive the train in an emergency, so there will always be a member of staff on the train. With regards to the grade-splitting, if your salary was to be reduced by 50%, how long would you be willing to go on strike for to make sure it didn't happen? I think the only way they'd stand even a remote chance of bringing in a seperate grade would be to apply it to new starts only.

 

[ST]

Any job that has an element of unskilled repetitive labour is in line for automation. The technology is available, just a matter of cost and implementation. ERTMS seems to be the first step in future full automation of European railways, but whether we see an autonomous train on the mainline in the next 50 years is up for contention. Interesting topic though.

Unskilled repitative labour?! Don't agree with your comment I am afraid. Can I ask what you do at present? Are you a driver?

 

[Dieseldriver]

Guys those of you who are wanting to get into train driving as a career then I highly encourage you to apply. This forum has had many threads where the arguments have been discussed ad infinitum. If you search you will find them. There are so many variables on the mainline that I certainly can’t foresee a time where an organic squidgy bit won’t be required at the front.



I would certainly challenge your rhetoric there, certainly at this time of year. When I am having to use my skill and experience to brake for a station on a very slippery day with a bit of drizzle in the air I would certainly not call it unskilled repetitive labour!

Indeed. Nice attempt at a subtle, uneducated dig at a role the poster clearly knows nothing about...

 

[TheVicLine]

Any job that has an element of unskilled repetitive labour is in line for automation.

I'm guessing you have never actually driven a train, everyone knows it's on par with being an astronaut

 

[hooverboy]

When it comes to the express services, I'd say that there's very much a "skin in the game" argument. The bottom line is that the public know that if the driver makes an error, they personally are at risk, whereas if it's remotely operated from a control room, none of the staff have skin in the game. For similar reasons, there's a lot of opposition to pilotless airliners.

Many of the regional services still rely on Absolute Block signalling, a tried and tested method which was replaced on busy routes in the 1950's with Track Circuit Block. When one considers how much drivers cost, relative to the cost-effectiveness (or lack thereof) of installing ATO on rural routes with few services but lots of route milelage, I don't see ATO arriving there soon.

Lastly, a computer cannot make a dispatch decision, nor can it drive the train in an emergency, so there will always be a member of staff on the train. With regards to the grade-splitting, if your salary was to be reduced by 50%, how long would you be willing to go on strike for to make sure it didn't happen? I think the only way they'd stand even a remote chance of bringing in a seperate grade would be to apply it to new starts only.

agreed that fully autonamous mainline service is not on the cards any time soon.Metro's,and underground is a different matter.I fully expect most will be at the very least a "jubilee" line level of automation in the very near future(along with platform doors- which actually is a good thing as this has reduced "one under" incidents on said stations)

what IS on the cards will be much better in cab signalling with real time track info-again a bonus as you'll see what's coming up, irrespective of weather conditions outside which may impede visibility.This will free up drivers from being restricted to such small sections for route learning.The area covered will be much greater.
it'll be for instance Bedford-brighton direct (no changeover at luton or blackfriars)

 

[Tomnick]

what IS on the cards will be much better in cab signalling with real time track info-again a bonus as you'll see what's coming up, irrespective of weather conditions outside which may impede visibility.This will free up drivers from being restricted to such small sections for route learning.The area covered will be much greater.
it'll be for instance Bedford-brighton direct (no changeover at luton or blackfriars)

I don’t think anything currently on the cards will reduce the extent or depth of route learning required. I’m fairly sure that Bedford drivers already sign right through to Brighton too - it’s not a long way, although it is complex in a lot of places.

 

[bionic]

what IS on the cards will be much better in cab signalling with real time track info-again a bonus as you'll see what's coming up, irrespective of weather conditions outside which may impede visibility.This will free up drivers from being restricted to such small sections for route learning.The area covered will be much greater.
it'll be for instance Bedford-brighton direct (no changeover at luton or blackfriars)

Bedford and Brighton drivers sign the whole route. The crew changes are purely for resourcing and diagramming reasons.

 

[dctraindriver]

Hello.

I just wanted to gain some opinions about how automation might affect train driver job security.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...o_subway_systems#Grade-of-Automation_4_(GoA4)

Do you think this will come anytime soon to the UK? Obviously this would result in a cut of train drivers, would it not?

In fairness I think I’d be more worried about my sickness record than worrying about automation Ciel........

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't say any driver starting now has to worry. At worst they will end up in part in a guard's job (I do see a long-term future of guard-only operation), but realistically full automation will be a long time coming and as people are retiring and leaving all the time they will most likely just not replace them when it comes to it.

 

[Pete C]

It's not like driverless cars where they can (in theory at least) operate on existing infrastructure, the whole signalling system needs to be upgraded for ATO to work, and we've seen how bad Network Rail is at just getting electrification done, let alone anything else!

I just don't see there being enough investment in the railways to get it done for decades yet, even on the busiest routes (not counting LU of course).

 

[Economist]

If TfL can complete the Four Lines Modernisation project successfully, the Thameslink "core" works and Crossrail does too, then I reckon they'll try and introduce more of it. That said, on the first two projects where they are applying ATO to existing infrastructure, there has been quite a few problems. In the next couple of decades, we might see ATO become much more widespread.

As hooverboy has said, the real business case is on metro/subsurban operations. The only question for me is how it would be applied on tracks shared by multiple TOCs. If TOC A wants to introduce ATO but TOC B doesn't want to upgrade rolling stock, there could be a challenge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If TfL can complete the Four Lines Modernisation project successfully, the Thameslink "core" works and Crossrail does too, then I reckon they'll try and introduce more of it. That said, on the first two projects where they are applying ATO to existing infrastructure, there has been quite a few problems. In the next couple of decades, we might see ATO become much more widespread.

As hooverboy has said, the real business case is on metro/subsurban operations. The only question for me is how it would be applied on tracks shared by multiple TOCs. If TOC A wants to introduce ATO but TOC B doesn't want to upgrade rolling stock, there could be a challenge.

If the ATO didn't introduce things like moving block, they could coexist quite happily. Indeed, LU allows drivers to drive manually on ATO lines if they wish, some do and some don't.

 

[hooverboy]

As hooverboy has said, the real business case is on metro/subsurban operations. The only question for me is how it would be applied on tracks shared by multiple TOCs. If TOC A wants to introduce ATO but TOC B doesn't want to upgrade rolling stock, there could be a challenge.

signalling is not really anything to do with TOC's.It's ultimately network rail's call with ROSCO's being informed of what is required to be installed/run on the network.
ALL rolling stock needs to conform to a national standard of operation.

 

[387star]

Would a driverless train know to blow the horn at the waving smiling people standing on bridges ?

 

[big all]

to be honest like most jobs a train drivers job is highly skilled but your daily job and routine after a year or so should only use perhaps 5-10% off your normal brain capacity in otherwords automated actions with the other 92% going into unusual situations like failures off doors signals or perhaps adheasion problems
if you are constantly thinking or worrying you may be in the wrong job

 

[PaulBusDriver]

I still can't forsee a system capable of being fully aware enough to cope with all the unexpected situations adequately for a long time to come.
In my job we have idiots that do completely unexpected things all the time, we can cope with that due to experience but if it comes
down to it with an automated system and it results in a tragic accident, the public opinion will turn on automated systems and it
would be a expensive failure so until the sytems are 100% totally reliable I think human drivers are safe in employment.

 

[bionic]

Would a driverless train know to blow the horn at the waving smiling people standing on bridges ?

A very good point!

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

I was told years ago that anyone can drive a train. Stopping one is something completely different and stopping one at the right time and place is the hardest part.