Automation and Train Driver Job Security

[Set_DRA]

I was told years ago that anyone can drive a train. Stopping one is something completely different and stopping one at the right time and place is the hardest part.

Agreed! Also has anybody else on here driven a 317 with milk bottle top brakes?!

 

[theironroad]

Would a driverless train know to blow the horn at the waving smiling people standing on bridges ?

Well as parts of the railway are trying to stamp it out now because of complaints from people living near railways, then it will probably be seen as a bonus.

On the other hand, maybe a ato train with camera sensors might mistake a person waving enthusiastically as someone trying to stop the train in an emergency and put the emergency brake in, you never know

 

[Pete C]

Well as parts of the railway are trying to stamp it out now because of complaints from people living near railways, then it will probably be seen as a bonus

I've never understood this sort of thing - chances are unless they were born in the house a hundred years ago the railway was there when they moved in, so they have no right to complain about it

 

[theironroad]

I tend to agree.

The only thing I might say in their defence is that new trains seem to have horns a lot louder than previous generations of stock and tbh, some are deafening.

 

[TheVicLine]

ASLEF are saying bring back 2 tones at crossings, that's double the noise pollution straight away

 

[theironroad]

ASLEF are saying bring back 2 tones at crossings, that's double the noise pollution straight away

There's a difference between using the horn for safety of people crossing or working on the railway and using the horn for being friendly.

 

[whhistle]

Any job that has an element of unskilled repetitive labour is in line for automation.

Unskilled repitative labour?! Don't agree with your comment I am afraid. Can I ask what you do at present? Are you a driver?

Define skill.
You could say a Golfer is skillful but most wouldn't call that a "skilled job".
Yet compare that with a brain surgen, of which I think many people would call a "skilled job".

Like many roles on the railways the majority of the time it's boring, the same and not particularly difficult. Stopping a train in the right place could be considered a skill, but I don't think many people think of it like that. Just like a chef cooking a steak - it's skillful but again, I wouldn't think many people consider it a skilled job.

Yet when stuff goes wrong, that's when the "proper" skills are whipped out (as in, REALLY wrong).
A good question is who is more skillful? Someone who can repair a train, or a train driver who pushes buttons on the computer to reset it? When you put it like that, it's clear who the answer is but both have different skills. The train repairer probably couldn't cope with low adheson even if they knew how to drive the train to begin with!

Many non-technical skills are used all the time by most workers so can't really be counted.

 

[Ciel]

I think there’s also an important customer perspective. We know that planes can fly without a pilot. (Drones are an obvious example) but would you travel in one? I wouldn’t. The same thing goes for train travel. It’s OK to have a driverless train with something like the Glasgow subway or the DLR where the speeds are relatively slow, the routes fairly simple, but not for the national network. I wouldn’t really want to travel in a driverless train from London to Glasgow. There are too many things to go wrong outside technology’s control. So you would have one bad smash and the passengers would simply abandon it as a reliable way to travel. Too risky. Commercial suicide to have driverless trains on that type of journey.


I think drivers will be needed for a long time to come, on most routes anyway.

I would be okay with riding in a driverless train, provided said automated system passes all safety checks and has a pristine record.

You have automated trains in Japan, China and other countries in the world. I don't really think customer perspective comes into consideration - people just want to get from A to B. I guarantee you that if a TOC said "We're bringing in automated trains, so your fares won't increase that much year on year" the public would be happy.

 

[Ciel]

I was told years ago that anyone can drive a train. Stopping one is something completely different and stopping one at the right time and place is the hardest part.

Again, automated train services across the world have shown the ability of systems to stop trains at the desired spots.

 

[Kraken1234]

Again, automated train services across the world have shown the ability of systems to stop trains at the desired spots.

I met with Scotrail drivers today who told me that the Union are fighting tooth and nail against automation, but it's only a matter of time before it comes...

 

[Pete C]

It's the sheer cost of upgrading the infrastructure though. Most of the country isn't even electrified yet! It'll only be the busiest passenger routes that'll get done before most of us retire.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I would be okay with riding in a driverless train, provided said automated system passes all safety checks and has a pristine record.

You have automated trains in Japan, China and other countries in the world. I don't really think customer perspective comes into consideration - people just want to get from A to B. I guarantee you that if a TOC said "We're bringing in automated trains, so your fares won't increase that much year on year" the public would be happy.

I think you're wrong here - you're assuming that because you would be OK with it, then everyone would. I think anecdotal evidence has shown that the public aren't even that keen on DOO let alone driverless trains and they like there to be a person around if they need help.

On your 2nd point, most of the driverless systems that I'm aware of are low speed operations and are fairly short in terms of distance - unless someone can correct me on this.

I'm not saying it won't come but I think its a long way off yet for a number of reasons - including those already mentioned previously

 

[PaulBusDriver]

I read

I think you're wrong here - you're assuming that because you would be OK with it, then everyone would. I think anecdotal evidence has shown that the public aren't even that keen on DOO let alone driverless trains and they like there to be a person around if they need help.

On your 2nd point, most of the driverless systems that I'm aware of are low speed operations and are fairly short in terms of distance - unless someone can correct me on this.

I'm not saying it won't come but I think its a long way off yet for a number of reasons - including those already mentioned previously

I read an article recently saying about how the bullet trains in Japan have a policy whereby if the driver is more than a minute late he has to apologise to the waiting passengers and explain why!
Just saying, but with that sort of efficiency it has to be questioned as to what an automated system could offer in terms of more efficiency

 

[Set_DRA]

Automated systems only work in normal running situations.

Won’t catch them slamming the brakes on for a jumper or a child on the line.....and yes I’ve had both!

 

[baz962]

Cant get train going again if a fault , or evacuate . Good luck with warnings about third rail , limited clearances etc .

 

[Ciel]

Automated systems only work in normal running situations.

Won’t catch them slamming the brakes on for a jumper or a child on the line.....and yes I’ve had both!

Of course you could have a system which accounts for any irregularities of the track.

Visual recognition systems are making leaps and bounds. Look car which know when to emergency break automatically.

 

[Trainguy90]

In a world where planes and cars are becoming automated where there are many more dimensions and unforeseeable obstacles/situations, I think a system could easily be brought in, it’s just implementing it and testing which would be difficult. We still have semaphore in certain areas and ERTMS is having a very slow role out but equally we have the Victoria line automated, Crossrail which will be automated once it hits the tunnels under London and then automation between Blackfriars and St Pancras.
I’m more interested in how a computer would work out things like freight trains where every train you drive has different characteristics with wagons older than me all with their own characteristics, but again I’m sure it’s possible, just to expensive and to much effort (for now)

 

[NSEFAN]

I guarantee you that if a TOC said "We're bringing in automated trains, so your fares won't increase that much year on year" the public would be happy.

I expect more cynicism than that from the British public

 

[PaulBusDriver]

I expect more cynicism than that from the British public

I'm highly sceptical that the TOCs would pass the savings on to the customer

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I'm highly sceptical that the TOCs would pass the savings on to the customer

True, and the fact is that the public (taxpayer) would end up paying the huge infrastructure costs to implement this sort of system anyway

 

[Narom]

I don't think its a worry that's going to affect us in our life time.

Planes have been able to fly by wire for decades, still get 2/3/4 pilots on board even if they don't really need to be there.

They, however, have seen working conditions for pilots degrade, something that you could see happen to drivers.

With the tech needed to fully automate the railway, not just from trains but to signalling, that would open up the lines to more trains operating on it. Automation and tech improvements have seen plane travel get cheaper and more freely available, there is nothing stopping the same happening on trains with more TOCs operating due to increased capacity. I would however expect them to always have a driver as a failsafe because of that increased capacity.

The trains as they are ran now, with the gaps between them etc would probably cope fine with automation and built-in contingencies as we see on many driverless lines, but increase the capacity and start crowding the lines and stations i'd imagine a driver will always be there.

 

[Gooner18]

As long as it’s 20/25 years away I am not concerned lol

 

[ST]

I don't think its a worry that's going to affect us in our life time.

Planes have been able to fly by wire for decades, still get 2/3/4 pilots on board even if they don't really need to be there.

They, however, have seen working conditions for pilots degrade, something that you could see happen to drivers.

With the tech needed to fully automate the railway, not just from trains but to signalling, that would open up the lines to more trains operating on it. Automation and tech improvements have seen plane travel get cheaper and more freely available, there is nothing stopping the same happening on trains with more TOCs operating due to increased capacity. I would however expect them to always have a driver as a failsafe because of that increased capacity.

The trains as they are ran now, with the gaps between them etc would probably cope fine with automation and built-in contingencies as we see on many driverless lines, but increase the capacity and start crowding the lines and stations i'd imagine a driver will always be there.

Imagine ASLEF and RMT would have a great deal to say about this.....

 

[Pete C]

Imagine ASLEF and RMT would have a great deal to say about this.....

Yeah, pilots never really had a union.

 

[Narom]

Yeah, pilots never really had a union.

Indeed.

I'd be inclined to think unions would make a deal however. Pay and conditions to stay the same for those in the job but new starters to get less and mess over the years.

But decades off yet .

 

[TheVicLine]

There will always be the need for traincrew on the train. I can't see how an onboard computer would be able to place track circuit clips and dets if emergency protection was required. Technology is nowhere near being ready for driverless trains.

 

[bionic]

The shambles that is the SSR signalling upgrade, the opening of crossrail and the thameslink ATO which has been put back repeatedly shows you just how close we are to automating the rest of Britain's railways any time soon! Many of those at the top couldn't run a bath.

Obviously it will eventually happen, but the government in this country and the way the railways are run mean nothing is going to change in the short to mid term. There's also not really much economic or operational benefit in automating all but the busiest routes.

As a driver myself I don't think there's much risk of it happening in the years I've got left, but if it does, from a purely personal perspective, i'd probably be quite happy to put my feet up by then or get paid off and put in go to another depot that wasn't automated. By the time it ever comes in the world will be a very different place anyway.

Don't make the mistake of thinking the unions will prevent ATO. They've spent the last few decades flogging many of the conditions staff once had. When the media get hysterical about the wages some TOCs are on they don't tell you about the conditions ASLEF sold off to get those kind of wages.