Autumn refresh for GWR Class 165/166 Turbos

[158747]

From memory only inner wheels of each bogie are driven, others are unpowered axles.

The cab end bogie is unpowered, the two axles of the bogie at the opposite end are both powered. The centre vehicles of the 3 car units are the same with one powered and one unpowered bogie.

 

[berneyarms]

Anyone got an upto date summary of units, as programme has now been running for over a year.

Still seeing quite a few units painted in purple-blue with pink doors on my line, and internally many seem to be rather tired.

Yesterday I am sure I saw a 5car formation where it seemed to be struggling with only 4, (maybe just 3) cars under power.

Based on the information in this thread:

165101 and 165102 are in the works.

All the rest of the Class 165 fleet are refreshed except for:
165105, 165106, 165107, 165108, 165110, 165112, 165113, 165114 and 165117.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Based on the information in this thread:

165101 and 165102 are in the works.

All the rest of the Class 165 fleet are refreshed except for:
165105, 165106, 165107, 165108, 165110, 165112, 165113, 165114 and 165117.

And also 165103 which has not yet been refreshed.

 

[Deepgreen]

I travelled on (unrefurbished) 165117 today on a Gatwick working and it was in an abysmal state, with no anti-macassars in first class and a general lack of any indication that it was first class at all. This is, it must be remembered, not just a facet of the run-up to the refurbishment programme, but has been the case for years on the NDL - FGW/GWR simply seem intent of failing to provide anything like acceptable signage - it's been a scandalous hotch-potch for so long now. Later I went on 165106 on another Gatwick run, which has been refurbished. I was stunned to find that there is no internal first class indication whatsoever - no window stickers, no anti-macassars, nothing; along with the internal door not working and the micro-tables already falling off. The conductors generally don't seem to know whether first class exists on the route or not and they can't enforce it even if they do know, because there is absolutely nothing to indicate it! I find it simply bizarre that GWR are so awful at this, have been getting away with it for so many years and are perpetuating it on their newly-refurbished units.

 

[jackot]

I travelled on (unrefurbished) 165117 today on a Gatwick working and it was in an abysmal state, with no anti-macassars in first class and a general lack of any indication that it was first class at all. This is, it must be remembered, not just a facet of the run-up to the refurbishment programme, but has been the case for years on the NDL - FGW/GWR simply seem intent of failing to provide anything like acceptable signage - it's been a scandalous hotch-potch for so long now. Later I went on 165106 on another Gatwick run, which has been refurbished. I was stunned to find that there is no internal first class indication whatsoever - no window stickers, no anti-macassars, nothing; along with the internal door not working and the micro-tables already falling off. The conductors generally don't seem to know whether first class exists on the route or not and they can't enforce it even if they do know, because there is absolutely nothing to indicate it! I find it simply bizarre that GWR are so awful at this, have been getting away with it for so many years and are perpetuating it on their newly-refurbished units.

I've noticed the exact same - no antimacassars on unrefurbished 165113 today. I also haven't been on a turbo with the internal door working since covid.
165109, which has been refurbished, had zero indication whatsoever whether it is first class or not the other day; no window stickers, antimacassars, nothing; and that is on a unit that has been refurbished in the last three months - surely given the opportunity to redo the interior they would have the common sense to at least put some stickers. My only thought behind them keeping it neutral is in preparation for them being sent west, but with the 769s up in the air this makes even less sense.

Even when it was declassified a few years back on the stoppers, I had to once show the guard on my phone that it was actually declassified after he told me to sit elsewhere. It has been a real bodge on the route for many years now, to the point where staff nor passengers have the slightest clue whether FC is available or not.

 

[fgwrich]

I've noticed the exact same - no antimacassars on unrefurbished 165113 today. I also haven't been on a turbo with the internal door working since covid.
165109, which has been refurbished, had zero indication whatsoever whether it is first class or not the other day; no window stickers, antimacassars, nothing; and that is on a unit that has been refurbished in the last three months - surely given the opportunity to redo the interior they would have the common sense to at least put some stickers. My only thought behind them keeping it neutral is in preparation for them being sent west, but with the 769s up in the air this makes even less sense.

Even when it was declassified a few years back on the stoppers, I had to once show the guard on my phone that it was actually declassified after he told me to sit elsewhere. It has been a real bodge on the route for many years now, to the point where staff nor passengers have the slightest clue whether FC is available or not.

It’s funny that you two both mention the state of the Turbo’s. I’ve had two contrasting units this week but both had similar opinions from the guards - the first, a refurbished 2 car on the Basing’s. Plug sockets not working, various noticeable signs of poor workmanship from Wolverton (hardly a surprise) but in an Ok condition. Guards opinion, fine for the branches, not so for mainline use, needs replacing with longer units - 769s = Rubbish. Poor reliability shown so far, still not in service and less features than a Turbo. Unusually for a Thames Valley service, it was nice to see the guard using the panels by the doors, though as they pointed out you can’t easily use a few due to the position / t-key location / handrails.

Travelling back from Bristol earlier this week via Salisbury. Scruffy, very tired, rather noisy 166. For a change, plug sockets working. Usual features of the broken Bristol 166s, internal doors taped open, toilet locked OOU awaiting parts. Guards opinion - these are an utter embarrassment for the company and for the line. I’m not surprised and do feel for them, particularly going from refurbished 158s to Turbos with their cabs held together with hazard tape!

 

[jackot]

It’s funny that you two both mention the state of the Turbo’s. I’ve had two contrasting units this week but both had similar opinions from the guards - the first, a refurbished 2 car on the Basing’s. Plug sockets not working, various noticeable signs of poor workmanship from Wolverton (hardly a surprise) but in an Ok condition. Guards opinion, fine for the branches, not so for mainline use, needs replacing with longer units - 769s = Rubbish. Poor reliability shown so far, still not in service and less features than a Turbo. Unusually for a Thames Valley service, it was nice to see the guard using the panels by the doors, though as they pointed out you can’t easily use a few due to the position / t-key location / handrails.

Travelling back from Bristol earlier this week via Salisbury. Scruffy, very tired, rather noisy 166. For a change, plug sockets working. Usual features of the broken Bristol 166s, internal doors taped open, toilet locked OOU awaiting parts. Guards opinion - these are an utter embarrassment for the company and for the line. I’m not surprised and do feel for them, particularly going from refurbished 158s to Turbos with their cabs held together with hazard tape!

Very interesting to hear the perspectives from the guards. I definitely agree with the first guards' opinions on the 769s - they are worse than the turbos in almost all respects, with the insides looking positively stone-age with low-backed seats and just a strip of fluorescent tube for lighting with no diffuser, even compared to the 165s - not a suitable replacement at all and should only be put on Thames branch work at a stretch, but that is if they ever manage to get there without needing to be rescued.

The 166s are in such a state as you said; I still see the odd one with taped up doors, which I recall were put in place during covid at one of the ends as a 'precaution'. I actually used to quite like the general interior of turbos (especially the 166s with the declassified FC end) and found them quite comfortable, and even today I still think they are suitable for at least some of the routes they do, but with broken toilets and missing tables they really are not in a good state anymore. I really thought the refurbishment would be a chance to bring them back to life a little, even if they were kept as 2+3, but like everything they seemed to have been done as cheaply as possible, with no thought to the fact they are now on lease for another 6 years...

 

[Ashley Hill]

internal doors taped open,

I take it that’s the compartment door and not the connecting gangway door. If the gangway doors are defective they’re not allowed through the Severn Tunnel.

 

[Wolfie]

Very interesting to hear the perspectives from the guards. I definitely agree with the first guards' opinions on the 769s - they are worse than the turbos in almost all respects, with the insides looking positively stone-age with low-backed seats and just a strip of fluorescent tube for lighting with no diffuser, even compared to the 165s - not a suitable replacement at all and should only be put on Thames branch work at a stretch, but that is if they ever manage to get there without needing to be rescued.

The 166s are in such a state as you said; I still see the odd one with taped up doors, which I recall were put in place during covid at one of the ends as a 'precaution'. I actually used to quite like the general interior of turbos (especially the 166s with the declassified FC end) and found them quite comfortable, and even today I still think they are suitable for at least some of the routes they do, but with broken toilets and missing tables they really are not in a good state anymore. I really thought the refurbishment would be a chance to bring them back to life a little, even if they were kept as 2+3, but like everything they seemed to have been done as cheaply as possible, with no thought to the fact they are now on lease for another 6 years...

Comparing GWRs heaps with Chiltern's equivalent....

People used to talk about the poor state of Northern rolling stock.... Levelling down l guess!

 

[Parallel]

I just don’t understand how the Turbos always look so dirty internally - even some of the refreshed ones look a bit grim.

 

[fgwrich]

I just don’t understand how the Turbos always look so dirty internally - even some of the refreshed ones look a bit grim.

The choice of colours and materials doesn't help either, coupled to the consistently poor standard of work from Wolverton. I had a rather crowded 165119 to Reading during the evening "peak" on Wednesday evening - seat covers not fully fitted and working loose and a broken door button re-instated. The choice of light grey Lino for the flooring will come back to haunt them.

Also - The vestibules and doors are now the same colour. What happened to the rule regarding contrasting colours for the doors?

 

[Melancholia]

The choice of colours and materials doesn't help either, coupled to the consistently poor standard of work from Wolverton. I had a rather crowded 165119 to Reading during the evening "peak" on Wednesday evening - seat covers not fully fitted and working loose and a broken door button re-instated. The choice of light grey Lino for the flooring will come back to haunt them.

Also - The vestibules and doors are now the same colour. What happened to the rule regarding contrasting colours for the doors?

Also the floor is basically made of sandpaper, meaning it can't be mopped properly by the cleaning team.

 

[fgwrich]

Also the floor is basically made of sandpaper, meaning it can't be mopped properly by the cleaning team.

Oh for god sake! Who makes these decisions to go for certain, and no doubt cheapest, materials chosen for these refresh programs. At least the previous Treadmaster linoleum was far easier to clean. And being of a darker colour, didn’t show the dirt up as much as the light grey does. Mind you, the carpets in the FC compartment at one point were some of the worst, most ingrained carpets I’d ever seen.

 

[Deepgreen]

I've noticed the exact same - no antimacassars on unrefurbished 165113 today. I also haven't been on a turbo with the internal door working since covid.
165109, which has been refurbished, had zero indication whatsoever whether it is first class or not the other day; no window stickers, antimacassars, nothing; and that is on a unit that has been refurbished in the last three months - surely given the opportunity to redo the interior they would have the common sense to at least put some stickers. My only thought behind them keeping it neutral is in preparation for them being sent west, but with the 769s up in the air this makes even less sense.

Even when it was declassified a few years back on the stoppers, I had to once show the guard on my phone that it was actually declassified after he told me to sit elsewhere. It has been a real bodge on the route for many years now, to the point where staff nor passengers have the slightest clue whether FC is available or not.

Strangely, my last three journeys on the NDL in first class have seen the guard say to people standing in the doorways (on far-from-crowded trains) that they could sit in first. While obviously well-intentioned this simply undermines the point of first class and can only aggravate those who have paid extra for it (and who may well already be understandably unhappy at the quality of the accommodation anyway!). Obviously in packed conditions it's a different matter, but there were plenty of seats in standard.

 

[jackot]

Strangely, my last three journeys on the NDL in first class have seen the guard say to people standing in the doorways (on far-from-crowded trains) that they could sit in first. While obviously well-intentioned this simply undermines the point of first class and can only aggravate those who have paid extra for it (and who may well already be understandably unhappy at the quality of the accommodation anyway!). Obviously in packed conditions it's a different matter, but there were plenty of seats in standard.

That shows even more how confused the guards are! As you said, whilst people pay a good chunk extra to sit in FC, the guards are out there telling people it is declassified. Is it right that some Southern guards sign the route, or is it Southern drivers? It may explain some of the confusion if the former is true.

 

[Deepgreen]

That shows even more how confused the guards are! As you said, whilst people pay a good chunk extra to sit in FC, the guards are out there telling people it is declassified. Is it right that some Southern guards sign the route, or is it Southern drivers? That may add to the confusion further if the former is true.

I think it's Southern drivers - it certainly used to be the case.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I believe it’s Redhill drivers.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I had the unbridled joy of travelling on 2 166s today, which was a good reminder of how awful they are. The seats were not that bad considering some of the photos in this thread, but the noise was catastrophic. Not so much the engines, being sat behind the cab, but the a/c or whatever it was screamed non stop. I was glad to get back on the much more civilised 159.

 

[fgwrich]

I had the unbridled joy of travelling on 2 166s today, which was a good reminder of how awful they are. The seats were not that bad considering some of the photos in this thread, but the noise was catastrophic. Not so much the engines, being sat behind the cab, but the a/c or whatever it was screamed non stop. I was glad to get back on the much more civilised 159.

Those fans are absolutely awful. I’m not sure what it is that causes them, but the endless whine from certain members of the fleet boarders on torture. A shame as that part always uses to be the go to on the 166s for me, but now it’s above the engine instead (almost as bad but less of a high pitched whistle and whine).

 

[jackot]

I had the unbridled joy of travelling on 2 166s today, which was a good reminder of how awful they are. The seats were not that bad considering some of the photos in this thread, but the noise was catastrophic. Not so much the engines, being sat behind the cab, but the a/c or whatever it was screamed non stop. I was glad to get back on the much more civilised 159.

That Air Cooling unit is such a nuisance, it really ruins the First Class sections which are otherwise quite bearable IMO. Even with noise cancelling headphones I can't seem to drown it out, and the noise seems to have developed on nearly every 166 I've been on.

 

[gabrielhj07]

For reference I heard those fans at the North end of 206, 2V94. I was on 207, 1F15 later but standing in the vestibules on a slightly packed train I couldn’t hear it.

 

[FenMan]

That Air Cooling unit is such a nuisance, it really ruins the First Class sections which are otherwise quite bearable IMO. Even with noise cancelling headphones I can't seem to drown it out, and the noise seems to have developed on nearly every 166 I've been on.

A first world problem? Last summer, I very much appreciated travelling in a cool cabin on the NDL 165s when the ambient temperature was 30C plus.

 

[LiftFan]

A first world problem? Last summer, I very much appreciated travelling in a cool cabin on the NDL 165s when the ambient temperature was 30C plus.

The 165s Air Cooling I've found has been pretty good, think he means on the 166s where the Air Con barely works and makes a head splitting high pitched whine on basically every unit.

 

[fgwrich]

A first world problem? Last summer, I very much appreciated travelling in a cool cabin on the NDL 165s when the ambient temperature was 30C plus.

The 165s Air Cooling I've found has been pretty good, think he means on the 166s where the Air Con barely works and makes a head splitting high pitched whine on basically every unit.

Spot on, this is the ear splitting and incredibly irritating whine in the 166s (which provides virtually no air cooling or conditioning whatsoever). Not the bulky but fairly quiet fridge unit in the 165s which at least works. It really is headache inducing!

 

[jackot]

A first world problem? Last summer, I very much appreciated travelling in a cool cabin on the NDL 165s when the ambient temperature was 30C plus.

The 165s Air Cooling I've found has been pretty good, think he means on the 166s where the Air Con barely works and makes a head splitting high pitched whine on basically every unit.

Sorry, I meant the 166 Air Con. The 165s were great this summer and are really effective as long as the windows are shut. The 166s on the other hand make a horrid noise and barely work!

 

[physics34]

I travelled on (unrefurbished) 165117 today on a Gatwick working and it was in an abysmal state, with no anti-macassars in first class and a general lack of any indication that it was first class at all. This is, it must be remembered, not just a facet of the run-up to the refurbishment programme, but has been the case for years on the NDL - FGW/GWR simply seem intent of failing to provide anything like acceptable signage - it's been a scandalous hotch-potch for so long now. Later I went on 165106 on another Gatwick run, which has been refurbished. I was stunned to find that there is no internal first class indication whatsoever - no window stickers, no anti-macassars, nothing; along with the internal door not working and the micro-tables already falling off. The conductors generally don't seem to know whether first class exists on the route or not and they can't enforce it even if they do know, because there is absolutely nothing to indicate it! I find it simply bizarre that GWR are so awful at this, have been getting away with it for so many years and are perpetuating it on their newly-refurbished units.

The whole railway is a scandelous hotch potch at the mo and has been for a while

 

[cactustwirly]

I always thought the 166s were nicer than the 165s, they have much better sound insulation so the engine is quieter.

Never noticed a whine noise before. However the maintenance standard of St Philip's Marsh appears to be very similar to Newton Heath

 

[fgwrich]

I always thought the 166s were nicer than the 165s, they have much better sound insulation so the engine is quieter.

Never noticed a whine noise before. However the maintenance standard of St Philip's Marsh appears to be very similar to Newton Heath

While they do have slightly better insulation (the carpet helps with the sound deadening properties), the roughness of the below floor equipment is starting to make its presence known. But the main whining noise is in the former first class compartments, behind the cab. Interestingly. The fan speed seems to be related to the power handle, as when it is noticed up, you get a noticeable lul before the dreaded increase in the whooshing and whirring noise.

This certainly isn’t a new issue though, as they were doing it when I commuted on them to Reading in the later part of the decade. So it’s a known, and long term issue / annoyance. The SPM maintenance on them however seems to be lower than the bar set by Reading.

 

[Anonymous10]

While they do have slightly better insulation (the carpet helps with the sound deadening properties), the roughness of the below floor equipment is starting to make its presence known. But the main whining noise is in the former first class compartments, behind the cab. Interestingly. The fan speed seems to be related to the power handle, as when it is noticed up, you get a noticeable lul before the dreaded increase in the whooshing and whirring noise.

This certainly isn’t a new issue though, as they were doing it when I commuted on them to Reading in the later part of the decade. So it’s a known, and long term issue / annoyance. The SPM maintenance on them however seems to be lower than the bar set by Reading.

It's worth noting they might spend more time stabled elsewhere now

 

[Deepgreen]

The whole railway is a scandelous hotch potch at the mo and has been for a while

FGW/GWR have, for many years, completely failed to grasp the importance of good signage and labelling. BR labelled their first class religiously - it's not hard to do, but they just don't care. It's very odd. Their vanity livery's pencil stripe for first class was/is pathetic and is symptomatic of their attitude to information, i.e. that it's a distraction from their livery! Among the innumerable diabolical things privatisation brought about was the abandonment of signing conventions that had taken decades to establish in passengers' consciousness - it was a scandalous waste. Passengers with nous should, if challenged about being in so-called 'first class' on these units, ask how they are supposed to know where they are sitting! On the many units with no signing internally at all there can be no legal case for GWR to enforce any first class ticketing.

Oh for god sake! Who makes these decisions to go for certain, and no doubt cheapest, materials chosen for these refresh programs. At least the previous Treadmaster linoleum was far easier to clean. And being of a darker colour, didn’t show the dirt up as much as the light grey does. Mind you, the carpets in the FC compartment at one point were some of the worst, most ingrained carpets I’d ever seen.

I imagine the non-slip properties of the flooring were considered of more importance than easy cleanability - you can't have both.